8 unique features separating Jesus from other philosophies

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm not an egytologist or great expert in history, and a quick google search mostly came up with christian sites that were written to disprove such a claim. I currently have no time to look into this, am a bit busy and it's getting late. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.

I look forward to it.

 

[Nithavela]

Why are you even interested in saying anything on a Christian forum?

Because I find enjoyment in people asking me why I am here.

 

[ananda]

1. at least 25 fulfilled, Old Testament predictions of this Messiah's coming. To accurately predict this requires total control over the future events and the power to make them happen; ergo knowledge and power. (Isaiah 7.14;9.6; Micah 5.2)
2. supernatural conception (aka Virgin Birth) of Jesus (Luke 1.26-38). This is predicted in advance. God's Holy Spirit power brings it to pass.
3. Jesus lived a sinless life. (2 Cor 5.21; 1 Ptr 1.18-19)
4. Jesus the Savior died for His followers--fully paid for their sins.
5. Jesus forgives sin, removes the guilt. (Jn 8.32; Matt 11.28-30; Jn 10.10).
6. Promises eternal life as a FREE gift (Rom 6.23; Jn 6.37;10.28; 1 Jn 2.25;Tit 3.5)
7. Resurrected bodily from the grave
8. Co-creator of nature - Jn 1.1-3; Col 1.16-17; Heb 1.2,10)

How many of these things have you verified for yourself?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Well, I can't tell you of an example of something like that happening, because I don't think it's possible.

But the myths predate christianity. Examples would be several greek gods like Hephaestus, Krishna, Horus, Marjatta, the list goes on.

Really, if one wanted to make a mythical figure special, strange circumstances around the birth and pregnancy were very common.

Hephaestus was born of Zeus and Hera, although Hesiod records an alternate legend that Hera bore him alone in revenge for Zeus having Athena jump fully formed from his forehead. This is in contradiction with most other legends that Hephaestus was the one that struck Zeus with an axe to free Athena in the first place.

Horus was born of Isis and Osiris. Isis collected Osiris' remains but couldn't find his penis, so fashioned a golden one for him. She then proceeded to have sex with Osiris' corpse, so hardly a 'virgin birth' for Horus.

Krishna was born of Devaki and Vasudeva in a tale very similar to that of Zeus, in that children are prophesied to replace their parents and are disposed of, except for the one that escapes.

There are a lot of strange birth narratives, it is true, but I see these more as foreshadowing. Some that are called virgin births, like Athena from Zeus' forehead, or Mithras being born from a rock, eschew normal gestation and genitals entirely, so hardly warrant the term I think. Your examples aren't really virgin births though.
Regardless, Jesus' birth is different in that it is a normal human pregnancy that just happens to be parthenogenic, instead of all kinds of other weird and wonderful mythology.

 

[Cat Loaf You]

1. at least 25 fulfilled, Old Testament predictions of this Messiah's coming. To accurately predict this requires total control over the future events and the power to make them happen; ergo knowledge and power. (Isaiah 7.14;9.6; Micah 5.2)
2. supernatural conception (aka Virgin Birth) of Jesus (Luke 1.26-38). This is predicted in advance. God's Holy Spirit power brings it to pass.
3. Jesus lived a sinless life. (2 Cor 5.21; 1 Ptr 1.18-19)
4. Jesus the Savior died for His followers--fully paid for their sins.
5. Jesus forgives sin, removes the guilt. (Jn 8.32; Matt 11.28-30; Jn 10.10).
6. Promises eternal life as a FREE gift (Rom 6.23; Jn 6.37;10.28; 1 Jn 2.25;Tit 3.5)
7. Resurrected bodily from the grave
8. Co-creator of nature - Jn 1.1-3; Col 1.16-17; Heb 1.2,10)

Not 25 but over 350
AccordingtotheScriptures.org :: 353 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

 

[RaymondG]

Why are you even interested in saying anything on a Christian forum?

BTW virgin 'myths' may be plenty, but an actual virgin 'birth' is unique.
Look into it, you might be surprised and pleased with our Savior.

Are you saying that you can prove that the other virgin births were false but Jesus's was true?

 

[JOYFUL-ONE]

Not 25 but over 350
AccordingtotheScriptures.org :: 353 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

I said AT LEAST 25 to reduce disagreement. But yes, lots more!! Praise God. Man made religions do not have such predictions for their founders. Why not? One must have total control of history---the power and knowledge to make it happen!

 

[JOYFUL-ONE]

I wouldn't call all of these unique. Virgin pregnancies, for example, are part of many myths, often predating christianity by centuries.

So you agree that most of these unique features are valid? Good.

 

[Nithavela]

So you agree that most of these unique features are valid? Good.

Just because something is unique doesn't make it true or usefull, y'know?

 

[Nithavela]

I look forward to it.

Right then. After a few more searches, I've come to the conclusion that I can't tell. Nearly all sites are blatantly partisan on the issue and I couldn't find any serious historical source. I guess I could go to the local university library and start browsing history books, but truth be told, I'm not that invested and it's cold outside. Similiar things happen when one searches for Krishna or all the other virgin birth myths, they are either so obscure that nobody writes about them or you have some christian or anti-christian blogs shouting at each other, both quoting various sources.

So I'll concede the point. There were plenty of "special circumstances of birth" myths, but I can't prove there were any virgin birth myths pre-jesus.

 

[JOYFUL-ONE]

Just because something is unique doesn't make it true or usefull, y'know?

It is useful and true for me . . totally changed my life!Outsiders have no idea how much they are missing. I was an outsider for 31 years. I had no clue.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

ON!

Moved from Debate Other Religions to Christian Apologetics!

OFF!

 

[Nihilist Virus]

1. at least 25 fulfilled, Old Testament predictions of this Messiah's coming. To accurately predict this requires total control over the future events and the power to make them happen; ergo knowledge and power. (Isaiah 7.14;9.6; Micah 5.2)
2. supernatural conception (aka Virgin Birth) of Jesus (Luke 1.26-38). This is predicted in advance. God's Holy Spirit power brings it to pass.
3. Jesus lived a sinless life. (2 Cor 5.21; 1 Ptr 1.18-19)
4. Jesus the Savior died for His followers--fully paid for their sins.
5. Jesus forgives sin, removes the guilt. (Jn 8.32; Matt 11.28-30; Jn 10.10).
6. Promises eternal life as a FREE gift (Rom 6.23; Jn 6.37;10.28; 1 Jn 2.25;Tit 3.5)
7. Resurrected bodily from the grave
8. Co-creator of nature - Jn 1.1-3; Col 1.16-17; Heb 1.2,10)

Are you claiming that these are all facts, or are you saying that these are attributes of your deity which don't apply to other deities in the same way that Spider-Man has certain attributes unique to him?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right then. After a few more searches, I've come to the conclusion that I can't tell. Nearly all sites are blatantly partisan on the issue and I couldn't find any serious historical source. I guess I could go to the local university library and start browsing history books, but truth be told, I'm not that invested and it's cold outside. Similiar things happen when one searches for Krishna or all the other virgin birth myths, they are either so obscure that nobody writes about them or you have some christian or anti-christian blogs shouting at each other, both quoting various sources.

So I'll concede the point. There were plenty of "special circumstances of birth" myths, but I can't prove there were any virgin birth myths pre-jesus.

We might also want to keep in the mind the Bible's OWN literary tradition which predates Christ, by which I mean that the Old Testament has previous examples of "special births" that foreshadow that of Jesus. So, it isn't that Jesus suddenly popped onto the scene in the biblical literature and introduced some 'new phenomenon' that wasn't seen previously in Scripture. No, it's rather safe to say that Jesus' birth is modeled after previous biblical births like those of ... Adam, Isaac, Jacob, Samson and Samuel and not so much after alternative pagan births. And Luke throws in the special birth of John the Baptist for extra measure ...

...and we also see this biblical precedent for special births alluded to by Paul the Apostle in Galatians 4:27, where he quotes Isaiah 54:1,

For it is written: “Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.”
​

In fact, Paul seems to allude to this very thing earlier in the same letter to the Galatians where he says:

4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship ... (Galatians 4:4-5)
​

So, this Jewishly laden precedent for special kinds of births culminates in the Virgin Birth of Christ our Saviour.

 

[HitchSlap]

1. at least 25 fulfilled, Old Testament predictions of this Messiah's coming. To accurately predict this requires total control over the future events and the power to make them happen; ergo knowledge and power. (Isaiah 7.14;9.6; Micah 5.2)

I can't think of one that can't be explained in more parsimonious terms.

2. supernatural conception (aka Virgin Birth) of Jesus (Luke 1.26-38). This is predicted in advance. God's Holy Spirit power brings it to pass.

Mistranslated by the copyists. "Alma," used in Isaiah, is Hebrew for young woman.

https://outreachjudaism.org/alma-virgin/

3. Jesus lived a sinless life. (2 Cor 5.21; 1 Ptr 1.18-19)

There is no way to fact check this.

4. Jesus the Savior died for His followers--fully paid for their sins.

At this point in history, we know this doesn't work.

5. Jesus forgives sin, removes the guilt. (Jn 8.32; Matt 11.28-30; Jn 10.10).

Yet Christians still sin.

6. Promises eternal life as a FREE gift (Rom 6.23; Jn 6.37;10.28; 1 Jn 2.25;Tit 3.5)

Empty promise.

7. Resurrected bodily from the grave

Not such an amazing thing, if you're god and all.

8. Co-creator of nature - Jn 1.1-3; Col 1.16-17; Heb 1.2,10)

Creation myths are a dime a dozen, and they serve to inform us what a particular culture believed about reality.

 

[HitchSlap]

Why are you even interested in saying anything on a Christian forum?

BTW virgin 'myths' may be plenty, but an actual virgin 'birth' is unique.
Look into it, you might be surprised and pleased with our Savior.

There's nothing to look into. We know how babies are made, and apart from that, virgin's can't get pregnant.

The word "alma" was mistranslated by the anonymous author of Matthew as virgin, and set into play an entire doctrine that is untenable.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There's nothing to look into. We know how babies are made, and apart from that, virgin's can't get pregnant.

Yep! That's what the Bible says, too! Virgins...and barren women...can't get pregnant. Amazing point, that, isn't it?

The word "alma" was mistranslated by the anonymous author of Matthew as virgin, and set into play an entire doctrine that is untenable.

Yeah, we can just all rely on this simplistic "go to" of an explanation (excuse); that way, no one has to cull through hundreds of pages of ancient Jewish literary mush to find bits and pieces of inter-textual allusions, overlapping contexts, and mystical expressions to consider.

Having little or no work to do when considering religious faith, even that of Christian faith, is just too intuitively compelling of a principle to pass up, isn't it?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Just because something is unique doesn't make it true or usefull, y'know?

And by that notion, it isn't a fact that just because something isn't unique means that it isn't true or useful, either.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Yep! That's what the Bible says, too! Virgins...and barren women...can't get pregnant. Amazing point, that, isn't it?

Yeah, we can just all rely on this simplistic "go to" of an explanation (excuse); that way, no one has to cull through hundreds of pages of ancient Jewish literary mush to find bits and pieces of inter-textual allusions, overlapping contexts, and mystical expressions to consider.

Having little or no work to do when considering religious faith, even that of Christian faith, is just too intuitively compelling of a principle to pass up, isn't it?

I don't see how it matters. Even if we take "almah" to be "virgin," the virgin birth prophecy is utterly untenable.

Formal Debate --"Does Matthew take Isaiah 7:14 out of context?"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't see how it matters. Even if we take "almah" to be "virgin," the virgin birth prophecy is utterly untenable.

Formal Debate --"Does Matthew take Isaiah 7:14 out of context?"

...this all depends on whether Scripture writers are attempting to express truth through 1) LINEAR FULFILLMENTS that have an exactly matching one to one ratio, or 2) through GENERALIZED PATTERNS of spiritual significance. Guess which one I think it is, NV? (In fact, I think we've already discussed this before, and since I'm not a fundamentalist in the most expansive sense, I don't feel beholden to have to defend the former approach. But, I'll still read through the debate you had with this other guy.)