7th Trumpet Rapture?

[Ronald]

LOL - you don't understand what I said - Paul could not write about the 7th trumpet as even John did not receive the vision of it until many decades after Paul wrote Thess 4
Paul could not write about something that he did not know and no one knew would ever exist until Jesus gave John the vision of Revelation - common sense tells us that during the early days of the church that no one had all the books of the bible available to read them as they were written over a period of thousands of years- the NT was written over many many decades and no one had access to all of them like we do today with the advent of the printing press - scrolls in those days were very large -bulky - When the Dead Sea scrolls were found they were found in large clay jars -over 800 of them

The Feast Days are not about big tables of food and dancing - Feast Days are very specific days appointed by God Almighty Himself - They are still observed to this day and are still made clear by God about His appointed times and His appointed events -many which are identified in the stars -moon and sun - blood moons -eclipses and the stars . A.D. 95 simply endorses and supports a rapture that happens Before the Great tribulation spoken of by Jesus , but you need to understand that much of the terminology used on the topic stems from the agricultural harvests that Israel is very
adept to - as in harvests- grapes of wrath - winepress - threshing floor ...etc etc - there is more than one harvest -more than one snatching away -it is not a one time event just like there is more than one harvesting of the vines of grapes - the ones that are ripe for harvest are harvested first - then more become ready and a second harvest , and finally when at the end of the season there is a final harvest - the same applies to the harpazo

Yes, I need to understand.

 

[Ronald]

I am glad to see that we agree, at least on this point.

We can agree to disagree on other things without condemnation.

Thank you for your kind response, which has become rare on this forum.

.

I've read your posts for years, you are a Berean at heart. I do respect the various views. Revelation is confusing. If anyone claims otherwise, they are either arrogant or they haven't really studied it ... for twenty years or so. It will all pan out in the end and we'll then respond similarly, "Oh now I see and understand."
You know, we don't know each other, nut someday we will meet in the Millenial Kingdom. We shouldn't be too rude, especially to brothers and sisters. I seem to have a little more patience with them.
See you soon.

 

[jerry kelso]

You are wrong above, because you left out the correct choice.

Jesus Christ will be the head of the nations.

.

baberean2,

1. Yes Jesus will rule over all the earth and administer the law from Zion.
And Israel will be at the head of the nations as promised in their Davidic covenant as God’s elect with the earthly calling.
Do you really think Christ is going to do everything himself? If so, that is stupid thinking.
Even the church will also rule and reign as Kings, Priests, and rulers throughout the KoH reign.
You are the one who’s wrong. Quit trying to sabotage the truth of God’s word. Jerry kelso

 

[Ronald]

That wouldn't make any sense in the context of Paul's writing. Let's make this a bit more contemporary. Suppose we were the target Paul's letter, rather than the Thessalonians. The resurrection just happened a few decades ago and Christianity was starting to spread.

One day, Paul writes us an email, using a common idiom we understand, such as 'Turkey Day' in reference to Thanksgiving. He says, "Look!, I'll reveal to you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, on Turkey Day. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

Which is the reasonable response?

A. "Paul really cleared that up for us. Now we know what to expect on an upcoming Thanksgiving day. Thanks, Paul."

B. "Paul really cleared that up for us. Now we know what to expect during the great Turkey uprising of 2815 that no one has ever heard of yet or will know about until John mentions it in 30 or 40 years. Thanks, Paul."

Either Paul was revealing a mystery, as he states, or he lied to the the Thessalonians about his intentions. Not only would it have deceived them because the 'last trump' had an entirely different meaning to them, but it would still cause confusion today, as perpetuated by those who think it's the 7th trumpet.

The only message to the historical Thessolonians about this particular scripture is that the return of Christ and our resurrection won't be happening in their lifetime. When it says, "We who are alive ...", that isn't speaking of them, it was speaking of a future generation. 1 Cor. 15:52 has the same message.
It would be nice if the 7th Trumpet was blown on Thanksgiving though. The "last trumpet" is key to understanding when. It is a clue that any explore would search for.
Imagine a present day explorer looking for clues to uncovering a mystery. He has many to start with that answers the questions of where, what, how, how many and who; but only one answers the question of when. The mystery unfolds at this time. So he figures out all the all answers but gets stuck on this until he finds it,
Rev. 11:15-19
*The mystery of God is revealed.
*Christ appears.
*The resurrection of the Church occurs (which is part of that mystery). The mystery is what we will be like. Our new eternal bodies will be like Jesus, multidimensional and amazing. Also the mystery of what heaven is like and seeing Jesus face to face. This is the consummation of all that we've been waiting for, our redemption.
*The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's.
*The dead unbelievers are resurrected ... to what? (My take on this is that they will receive their bodies once again to experience judgment, on earth, during the Great Tribulation and then destroyed in the Lake of Fire -literally!)
*We receive rewards according to our deeds.
*The Temple is opened in heaven. (Rev. 11:19; 15:5)
*The Bowls of Wrath are released --- see, it's not over yet!

***But particularly, previous to that verse and the key to the mystery:
"but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets." Rev. 10:7

 

[BABerean2]

Yes Jesus will rule over all the earth and administer the law from Zion.
And Israel will be at the head of the nations as promised in their Davidic covenant as God’s elect with the earthly calling.
Do you really think Christ is going to do everything himself? If so, that is stupid thinking.

Do you really think the Son of God, who is God in human flesh, needs our help?

I will not include the word "stupid", because it is just another derogatory remark meant to defend your man-made doctrine.

.

 

[SeventyOne]

The only message to the historical Thessolonians about this particular scripture is that the return of Christ and our resurrection won't be happening in their lifetime. When it says, "We who are alive ...", that isn't speaking of them, it was speaking of a future generation. 1 Cor. 15:52 has the same message.
It would be nice if the 7th Trumpet was blown on Thanksgiving though. The "last trumpet" is key to understanding when. It is a clue that any explore would search for.
Imagine a present day explorer looking for clues to uncovering a mystery. He has many to start with that answers the questions of where, what, how, how many and who; but only one answers the question of when. The mystery unfolds at this time. So he figures out all the all answers but gets stuck on this until he finds it, Rev. 11:15-19

One of the root problems with this way of thinking is that it is a claim that Paul deceived the Thessalonians deliberately.

He used language they knew (the last trump) and associated with a particular event. If he did so, but with the intent to reference something completely different then what would come to their mind, then he deceived them. No way around it.

Another issue is that Paul said he was showing THEM a mystery. It wasn't something still hidden from them but to be understood at some point down the road. They had to understand what Paul was saying, otherwise, when he said he was showing THEM a mystery it would have been another lie.

 

[Truth7t7]

baberean2,

1. Yes Jesus will rule over all the earth and administer the law from Zion.
And Israel will be at the head of the nations as promised in their Davidic covenant as God’s elect with the earthly calling.
Do you really think Christ is going to do everything himself? If so, that is stupid thinking.
Even the church will also rule and reign as Kings, Priests, and rulers throughout the KoH reign.
You are the one who’s wrong. Quit trying to sabotage the truth of God’s word. Jerry kelso

Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom, as Matthew 25:31-46 clearly teaches below.

There will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans running around, as Jesus sits on a throne watching humans dying, a false teaching.

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nation's are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 44 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

"Eternity Begins"!

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Truth7t7]

The only message to the historical Thessolonians about this particular scripture is that the return of Christ and our resurrection won't be happening in their lifetime. When it says, "We who are alive ...", that isn't speaking of them, it was speaking of a future generation. 1 Cor. 15:52 has the same message.
It would be nice if the 7th Trumpet was blown on Thanksgiving though. The "last trumpet" is key to understanding when. It is a clue that any explore would search for.
Imagine a present day explorer looking for clues to uncovering a mystery. He has many to start with that answers the questions of where, what, how, how many and who; but only one answers the question of when. The mystery unfolds at this time. So he figures out all the all answers but gets stuck on this until he finds it,
Rev. 11:15-19
*The mystery of God is revealed.
*Christ appears.
*The resurrection of the Church occurs (which is part of that mystery). The mystery is what we will be like. Our new eternal bodies will be like Jesus, multidimensional and amazing. Also the mystery of what heaven is like and seeing Jesus face to face. This is the consummation of all that we've been waiting for, our redemption.
*The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's.
*The dead unbelievers are resurrected ... to what? (My take on this is that they will receive their bodies once again to experience judgment, on earth, during the Great Tribulation and then destroyed in the Lake of Fire -literally!)
*We receive rewards according to our deeds.
*The Temple is opened in heaven. (Rev. 11:19; 15:5)
*The Bowls of Wrath are released --- see, it's not over yet!

***But particularly, previous to that verse and the key to the mystery:
"but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets." Rev. 10:7

No the dead wicked are not resurrected in physical bodies to experience the tribulation, a teaching in error.

The dead wicked immediately go to "Hell" as the rich man and Lazarus parable teaches.

"Hell" will be delivered up at the "Final Judgment" not any time before it. Revelation 20:12-15

Luke 16:22-24
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Ronald]

One of the root problems with this way of thinking is that it is a claim that Paul deceived the Thessalonians deliberately

All of Paul's epistles weren't written only to the first century Christians. Prophecies given were not lies or deceptions. They often didn't understand what they meant. But in opening, he does inform them that he does not want them to be ignorant or have any misunderstandings about the Second Coming. Like God's message in Daniel 12:8, 9 "Although I heard, I did not understand, Then I said, 'My Lord, what shall be the end of these things?' And He said, 'Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." It was not for him or that generation but for ours. Likewise, any prophecy pertaining to the end times (even though it gave them a sense of immanency, hope and kept them ready because it could happen at any time), was more applicable to the end times generation. God said the end times message in Daniel was sealed until the time that it would be unsealed and answered.
Btw, I edited my previous post, the particular mystery verse give credence to the rest.

He used language they knew (the last trump) and associated with a particular event. If he did so, but with the intent to reference something completely different then what would come to their mind, then he deceived them. No way around it.

So what happened back then at the last trump? Nothing. What you are saying is that the last trump during their Feast of Trumpets came and went every year after year and THAT WOULD BE THE DECEPTION, and a disappointment. Nothing was intended to happen then, therefore the message wasn't for them, no deception, no lie. Scripture was for all the world of billions throughout history, not just for the Thessalonians.

Another issue is that Paul said he was showing THEM a mystery. It wasn't something still hidden from them but to be understood at some point down the road. They had to understand what Paul was saying, otherwise, when he said he was showing THEM a mystery it would have been another lie.

Showing Christianity a mystery. He showed them, if they weren't ignorant and could understand that the gospel was sent out to the world and that this particular letter was not just for them. Did they really know that this letter would be put in a book for generations and the entire world to read for all time or were they that narrow?

 

[SeventyOne]

All of Paul's epistles weren't written only to the first century Christians. Prophecies given were not lies or deceptions. They often didn't understand what they meant. But in opening, he does inform them that he does not want them to be ignorant or have any misunderstandings about the Second Coming. Like God's message in Daniel 12:8, 9 "Although I heard, I did not understand, Then I said, 'My Lord, what shall be the end of these things?' And He said, 'Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." It was not for him or that generation but for ours. Likewise, any prophecy pertaining to the end times (even though it gave them a sense of immanency, hope and kept them ready because it could happen at any time), was more applicable to the end times generation. God said the end times message in Daniel was sealed until the time that it would be unsealed and answered.
Btw, I edited my previous post, the particular mystery verse give credence to the rest.

Daniel isn't Paul, and Paul wasn't told to seal a vision. That said, some of his stuff was for his generation only. For example, 1Co 15:6 "Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep." You don't really think most of the people the referenced are still alive do you?

So what happened back then at the last trump? Nothing. What you are saying is that the last trump during their Feast of Trumpets came and went every year after year and THAT WOULD BE THE DECEPTION, and a disappointment. Nothing was intended to happen then, therefore the message wasn't for them, no deception, no lie. Scripture was for all the world of billions throughout history, not just for the Thessalonians.

Paul didn't say at which last trump did he? No. Don't force it in there as if it should have already happened. He told us the day, but didn't have the year. There's no deception there. When it happens at the last trump of a Feast of Trumpets, then it will be fulfilled.

Showing Christianity a mystery. He showed them, if they weren't ignorant and could understand that the gospel was sent out to the world and that this particular letter was not just for them. Did they really know that this letter would be put in a book for generations and the entire world to read for all time or were they that narrow?

He also showed them the rapture would be at the time of the last trump, as well as us, although most aren't listening and making stuff up as we go.

 

[Ronald]

No the dead wicked are not resurrected in physical bodies to experience the tribulation, a teaching in error.

The dead wicked immediately go to "Hell" as the rich man and Lazarus parable teaches.

"Hell" will be delivered up at the "Final Judgment" not any time before it. Revelation 20:12-15

What would you suppose they are resurrected into? John 5:28 tells us that we will be resurrected AND the unbelievers who committed evil deeds to judgment.
"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age..." Matt. 13:40 They will physically be resurrected and thrown into the LAKE of FIRE and literally destroyed. Now you may speculate as to where that Lake is, in the center of the earth or some spiritual location, but a resurrection is a resurrection that we understand according to history. If you think it's a spiritual resurrection, then their souls being immaterial would then be resurrected into souls immaterial again? That wouldn't make sense. No they are resurrected into physical bodies to be destroy in a physical burning Lake of Fire. I could go deeper into this topic but it derail the may goal of the OP.

Luke 16:22-24
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Very familiar with this passage of the Rich Man who was in Hades, not Hell, which are different.

 

[Truth7t7]

Daniel isn't Paul, and Paul wasn't told to seal a vision. That said, some of his stuff was for his generation only. For example, 1Co 15:6 "Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep." You don't really think most of the people the referenced are still alive do you?



Paul didn't say at which last trump did he? No. Don't force it in there as if it should have already happened. He told us the day, but didn't have the year. There's no deception there. When it happens at the last trump of a Feast of Trumpets, then it will be fulfilled.



He also showed them the rapture would be at the time of the last trump, as well as us, although most aren't listening and making stuff up as we go.

Nothing in God's word states the "Last Trump" as seen in 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 is associated with the feast of tabernacles, this is your "Private Interpretation" not found in scripture.

The Last Trump is seen in Revelation 10:6-7 & Revelation 11:15 below.

Revelation 10:6-7KJV
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[SeventyOne]

Nothing in God's word states the "Last Trump" as seen in 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 is associated with the feast of tabernacles, this is your "Private Interpretation" not found in scripture.

Actually it's a well known and long-standing Jewish idiom. I didn't make it up. Do your homework.

 

[Truth7t7]

What would you suppose they are resurrected into? John 5:28 tells us that we will be resurrected AND the unbelievers who committed evil deeds to judgment.
"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age..." Matt. 13:40 They will physically be resurrected and thrown into the LAKE of FIRE and literally destroyed. Now you may speculate as to where that Lake is, in the center of the earth or some spiritual location, but a resurrection is a resurrection that we understand according to history. If you think it's a spiritual resurrection, then their souls being immaterial would then be resurrected into souls immaterial again? That wouldn't make sense. No they are resurrected into physical bodies to be destroy in a physical burning Lake of Fire. I could go deeper into this topic but it derail the may goal of the OP.


Very familiar with this passage of the Rich Man who was in Hades, not Hell, which are different.

I fully agree the wicked will be resurrected into bodies and cast into the lake of fire.

You stated in post #184 above they will be resurrected and go into the tribulation period, then be cast into the lake of fire, 100% false!

They will be resurrected at the "Final Judgment"!

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually it's a well known and long-standing Jewish idiom. I didn't make it up. Do your homework.

A Jewish Idiom?

Smiles

 

[SeventyOne]

A Jewish Idiom?

Smiles

Problem?

 

[Truth7t7]

What would you suppose they are resurrected into? John 5:28 tells us that we will be resurrected AND the unbelievers who committed evil deeds to judgment.
"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age..." Matt. 13:40 They will physically be resurrected and thrown into the LAKE of FIRE and literally destroyed. Now you may speculate as to where that Lake is, in the center of the earth or some spiritual location, but a resurrection is a resurrection that we understand according to history. If you think it's a spiritual resurrection, then their souls being immaterial would then be resurrected into souls immaterial again? That wouldn't make sense. No they are resurrected into physical bodies to be destroy in a physical burning Lake of Fire. I could go deeper into this topic but it derail the may goal of the OP.


Very familiar with this passage of the Rich Man who was in Hades, not Hell, which are different.

My Holy bible KJV states "Hell", the old and new testaments, you believe this english translation that has been the standard for 400 years is wrong?

The world's use of the word "Hell" has been wrong for centuries?

If the King James Version isn't correct what should I do to find God's true words?

Luke 16:22-24
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[BABerean2]

Paul didn't say at which last trump did he? No.

He would not have to, since there can only be one "last" trump.

There is no 8th trump in the Book of Revelation.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Do you really think the Son of God, who is God in human flesh, needs our help?

I will not include the word "stupid", because it is just another derogatory remark meant to defend your man-made doctrine.

.

baberean2,

1. That is a ridiculous statement.
God has never needed our help but he demands man’s cooperation in faith and do something in his power.
He wants a relationship which is a two way street.
God is not going to make you do anything you don’t want to.
Your statement has no common sense.

2. God doesn’t need our help but he wants it and demands obedience.
If he didn’t want our help he wouldn’t make us Kings, Priests, and Rulers throughout the KoH. You think he is just going to give us those titles and then do all the work.
Do you understand responsibility and relationship? Obviously, you don’t or you wouldn’t made a non-sensical statement like that.
Jerry kelso

 

[SeventyOne]

He would not have to, since there can only be one "last" trump.

There is no 8th trump in the Book of Revelation.

.

Which might make sense if he had only known about multiple trumpets in Revelation in the first place, but he didn't.

He was a Pharisee, well versed in the feast days, including those he referenced in his writings. Other references include such things like Jesus as our Passover lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7). I'm sure it doesn't sit well for some to have a Jewish feast day used to represent our connection to Jesus. But that's just another connection between the Church and the feasts, just as the Holy Spirit coming down to us on the feast day of Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 15:20 speaks to us as Christ being our first fruits, more festival language.
1 Corinthians 16:9 shows that Paul still recognized these days as feast days as he states he plans to stay in Ephesus until Pentecost.

Notice something here. 1 Corinthians contains all these festival references, including 'last trump', which is more festival language in line with the others in the same letter.