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"What is unseen is eternal"
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After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Varied thoughts come to my mind.

1) Does the question assume "signs and wonders" are a reward for some higher level of faith (as opposed to, say, the decision of the Sovereign to distribute, cf. "gift of faith" given to some among believers, 1 Cor. 12:9)? If so, why? And if the "spectacular ... signs and wonders" are such a reward, what would be their purpose(s)? And here I intend to ask how the Bible would delimit such purpose(s).

2) My understanding of, e.g., the Gospel of John and books of Hebrews and Colossians, suggests Jesus is the apex and culmination of God's revelation to man and that Jesus appointed His disciple/apostles, by means of the guidance and reminders of the Holy Spirit, in effect to pen a "Jesus canon" like the old (the OT) so that altogether "the man (or woman) of God may be ... equipped for every good work" (cf. 2 Tim. 3:16-17) as God works in the believer to will and to act according to His good purpose (Phil 2:13).

Then why are "signs and wonders" needed nowadays? If they come (cf. dreams of Jesus among Iranian Muslims), are they consistent with the apex and culmination of divine revelation or contrary to it?

3) It may be a bit much even to summarize here, but Paul in 2 Cor. 10-12, among other things, counters his boastful opponents by boasting in turn, but turning the categories of boasting on their heads--boasting in his weaknesses--toward the end of which list, Paul boasts of "a man in Christ" (12:2) who had "visions and revelations of the Lord" (12:1) concerning which content it was forbidden to speak (v. 4).

No doubt his opponents boasted rather freely in the content and glory of their visions and revelations (and their own implied stature and holiness to boot); such implied "opponent side" content would explain Paul's counter boasting in "visions and revelations" though "there is nothing to be gained by it" (v. 1), though again such boasting would not be foolish in his case because the facts are true (v. 6). But Paul refrains from such boasting lest anyone "may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me" (v. 6). Paul does not want the church at Corinth to think more highly of himself than warranted by his tangible actions (which would include his words).

Then Paul obliquely admits "to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations ..." (v. 7). What revelations? Cf. v. 1. Whose revelations? His own revelations about which it is forbidden to speak. So God gives Paul surpassingly great revelations of paradise, forbids him to speak of their content, and then gives Paul a "thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan" to keep him "from being too elated" (v. 7) ... so the thorns place Paul back in weakness where he learns the sufficiency of the grace of God, for Christ's power is made perfect in weakness (v. 9).

Granted the above concerns a polemic setting in which Paul is attempting to win (back) the hearts of the Corinthian Christians from false apostles (11:13). Not all "visions and revelations" are freighted with such a context. Yet the example surely also provides a warning to us. It is altogether too easy for me to boast, however subtly, in my credentials or proud associations.

4) That being said (or rather written), I wonder if I (or we) do not make excuses for my/our lack of faith--but faith in what object or to what end? I contend the object of faith must be guided by Jesus and His apostles as they in turn follow and fulfill the revelation of God to man that preceded them (the OT). Particularly, such faith is "in" Jesus and "in" what He accomplished on the cross, but it may have other objects, biblically speaking. Given such content to the "object of faith," do I have the faith to believe as it is written "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours (Mark 11:24)?--That even if I think the object and circumstance of prayer is also assumed to be delimited biblically.

As one whose weaknesses include chronic illness and chronic fatigue, I wonder if the things I accomplish for God (in fact rather than mere appearance) are limited by my deficiencies of faith in what God will accomplish in and through me even if my illness constitutes my application of the thorn in the flesh to keep me from being conceited and to help keep me trusting the power of Christ. Yet I also maintain whatever object of faith the Lord would have me accomplish must be bound by the word of God. Whatever talents I invest rather than bury must be invested in what accrues for the kingdom of God and for God's Christ.
 
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jackcv

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thatbrian said:
After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?
You know, I'd never heard that term (frozen chosen) before...and then Gov. Huckabee used it in a joke this morning on TV.
I had never heard that term, either.

IMO, all of the above scriptures are apropos to this thread. The Savior's comment to doubting Thomas is amplified in the Book of Mormon "Yea, he that truly humbleth himself, and repenteth of his sins, and endureth to the end, the same shall be blessed—yea, much more blessed than they who are compelled to be humble...".

None of these, however, negate the clear promises that:
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

James 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,a whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. http://biblehub.com/james/1-6.htm

I have found that our Father in heaven will answer sincere prayers which are offered in the service and for the glory of Jesus Christ, when asked with real intent to do what God directs one to do, and with the faith that comes from faithfully consecrating oneself to do what God has directed in the past.
 
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aiki

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I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

I think it is because some are unwilling to "walk by faith, not by sight" that they push to find some miraculous verification of their belief through tongues, and healings and the like. "God has said" is not enough; God must also perform, He must prove Himself to be who the Bible says He is. There is, of course, a place for resting in God's promises, for trusting Him to fulfill His promises to us, but that is not what I see from those who want an extraordinary (and, of course, very emotional) experience of God. Really, to me it often looks very much like a fleshly, sensuous pursuit of the experience rather than of God Himself. And this, it seems, does not suggest a strong faith in God, but rather the opposite.

Selah.
 
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Gwen-is-new!

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This one has always stumped me.
=============================

Jesus Heals a Demon-Possessed Boy

14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15“Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17“You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” [21]a
 
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imstillstanding

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After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?
How do you measure faith? All things aren't as they appear, or proclaimed.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

I have enough faith to say that such experiences are not indicative as to who has more faith.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I think that at the beginning of faith all true Christians are rewarded with hearing from God in some sense of signs and wonders, because that's what took us from being doubting thomases to having seen our Lord and our God revealed thru those signs and wonders ....
Later the onus is on our following by faith and not by sight.
Sometimes it occurs to me that the Christians that are blessed with many worldly comforts are those who can't walk w/o them.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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There are too many who have hurt themselves thinking like that already, like those who think something's wrong with them if they can't speak in tongues, or doubt their salvation if they don't "feel" God enough in prayer.

I agree completely. In fact, I've started some threads that address this subject.
 
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tiglathpileser

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Please dont accuse those who don't do miracles of lacking faith and being proud. The scriptures teach us to look at eternal things, not temporary things. Is that pride and lacking in faith? Nope.

Maybe Gods way is not to see miracles but to simply be separate from the world, to be holy, and walk in love. How do you know what Gods will is? Psalms says that God fashions everyone's heart individually, as he sees fit.

I did not accuse anyone of anything. I said......In my experience..... I did not say "in my experience and everyone else should go this way as well." This is very important as it was very clear to me God was directing me to start with "In my experience..."
 
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keltoi

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I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?
I'm not sure we can determine who has more faith but what I can suggest is what Jesus said about being blessed John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
From this I take that people who actually saw Jesus and his work believed and had faith because they actually saw it. We however haven't seen Jesus and believe and have faith. If that makes our faith stronger then we have the stronger faith but I don't think we can determine how much faith other have unless they divulge how much they have.
 
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tiglathpileser

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Yeah, but some kind of revelation or intervention from God would certainly boost my faith...

I would agree as MY EXPERIENCE IS when God speaks to me directly it makes it easier to step out in faith and follow his directions.
 
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Kersh

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Why does it need to be a competition? It's always bothered me, for example, when I hear certain charismatic Chrisitans claim that you're not really saved if your don't show whatever spiritual gift they emphasize. But, I think it's just as dangerous to question their faith because of their spiritual gifts or to claim that they must not bw genuine. Faith is exhibited in how we love one another, not in what supernatural experiences we have had.
 
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throughfierytrial

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Why does it need to be a competition? It's always bothered me, for example, when I hear certain charismatic Chrisitans claim that you're not really saved if your don't show whatever spiritual gift they emphasize. But, I think it's just as dangerous to question their faith because of their spiritual gifts or to claim that they must not bw genuine. Faith is exhibited in how we love one another, not in what supernatural experiences we have had.

Taking the example of Paul himself, I'd have to disagree a bit...gifts are evidence of faith and we are to eagerly seek the greater gifts...not to prop ourselves up but rather to minister to the Body of Christ...I Corinthians 12:31.
Along this same thought...gifts...it was said that tongues and revelations were a manifestation of the spirit, but unless there was an interpreter it did not edify the church to whom they were ministering. I believe, again, it is all about others no focus on ourselves...to the extent humanly possible. Paul does defend his ministry at times itemizing for us his works and deeds and dangers. He also does so in an effort to direct us and spur us on.
 
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DW1989

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Its an interesting question, but can not be determined by us. We are not the judges of who has more faith or faith in general, it's God himself. I guess its determined more of whats truely in your heart. Some speak in tongue, some have dreams. But, if you really think about, its trust in the Lord. It's trust that you truely believe in Christ (God in the living flesh) . It's trust that he truely see's you heart and passion to try to be better. Trust in something you can't see, but know in your gut and soul God is always there. I was not raised in my trust, nor was I tought. I always knew, from my soul. Because I am his daughter. We are all apart of our Father. But some astray.

Matthew 7:13-14

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

 
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tiglathpileser

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I can imagine that.

What I have noticed over the last few years is that as interest has gathered momentum in people experiencing God, not just knowing about him, more and more people are admitting that God talking to them is a foreign concept beyond the Sunday sermon or what they read in scripture.

I have never had an earthly father so this concept is felt more keenly as a result. I have observed over the years (74) that the best families communicate with each other. When Dad comes home from work he doesn't sit in a separate room to his family and ignore them. He will interact with them, especially as the experts who I studied at university said that the most important time for parent/child dialogue is the first few minutes of contact i.e when the parent or child comes home. If it does't happen then, it will not happen at all.

If God has inbuilt that need in us in the natural, how much more so in the supernatural. To say that God only interacts with us in the Word is to say he prefers to sit in another room (the bible). This same bible refers to the church (you and me) as 'the family of God' so we should expect the head of that family to relate to us, talk with us and share time with us in all manner of ways.

There is nothing better I like than for me to go on a trip in a car or walking and for me to use the time to have a conversation with God. What you might call a one on one with my father. At times like these I often get inspired and instructed.

Here is a little example of what can happen when that is the case. When we were younger, we looked into an empty fridge and had no money to go out and buy something. Our faith was in God to provide. A knock on the door. We opened it and there was a lady from the fellowship standing there with a bag in her hand. She came in and explained that she was cleaning out her freezer and found two legs of lamb and as she didn't really need both she felt that we might like it, hence the visit.

No doubt that God was orchestrating the situation and we knew that this sister in the Lord was experienced in hearing from God so we knew that God was moving on our behalf and answering our prayers.

Another friend of mine who was in ministry (now deceased) was needing a new car as he had given away the previous one he owned. He told the Lord of the need for a car and please could he have a Jaguar. A few days later, a Christian car dealer who he had said nothing to, rang up and said on the phone "God has told me to give you a Jaguar car."
 
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tiglathpileser

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I have enough faith to say that such experiences are not indicative as to who has more faith.

Having been a baptist myself, I too shunned away from anything supernatural as I had been taught that was for Pentecostals. We Baptists don't need things like that. At the time I had no reason to disbelieve them as they were wonderful people and I had been saved and grew up amongst them. When that is your environment you tend to rationalise away other people's experience and teaching and you only listen to people who agree with you. They even went as far as to say only the Baptists were right. You can guess how wonderful I felt having been chosen by God to be part of the perfect.

What I found was that making such a comment like the above was my way of coping and excusing the fact that I did not have any such experiences myself and neither did my denomination and even more was an excuse for not having such experiences.

It all came apart at the seams when I moved town and joined a baptist church that became charismatic whilst there. They were baptists OK, they were wonderful people, and they were not over the top. But the fact was they were proving what I believed was wrong.

When I stopped trying to rationalise my previous beliefs and opened myself to the new paradigm, I found that what they said and did was better. Consequently, whilst in a young people's prayer meeting I started speaking in tongues quite spontaneously. As they say, the rest is history.

My advice for what it is worth is to hold on to what you have but don't reject what you haven't until you know that God is or is not in it. For that to happen you need an open mind and heart. Approaching anything with a closed mind will only result in one thing. Prejudice making your decisions for you.
 
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tiglathpileser

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God gives us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. He does not speak in a voice that we can hear. A miracle is a restoration of the way things should be. So it is difficult to prove a miracle because you have to show where something was wrong and broken but is now fixed or normal and the way it should be. People often try to argue there was never a problem in the first place.

Don't want to put a dampener on what you have said but in my experience, God does speak in a voice that you can hear.

And in my experience, the people who argue that there never was a problem in the first place usually (but not always) are trying to defend their incorrect theology.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Matthew 13:13-15

13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a] heal them.’


1 Corinthians 2:10-11

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.


What that says to me is that we as individuals have a personal responsibility to hear God.
 
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