.

[tickingclocker]

Kind of a non-question to my heart. Through the ages, believers as well as non-believers have heard God's voice, because HE wished to say something to them (Adam, Samuel as a child, even Balaam, etc.). There has to be some way to recognize His voice or "impression of His voice", even to the non-believer, to know it is the Lord speaking. Therefore, when believers deliberately ask God for answers, and He answers with some discernible voice/impression, does it depend upon YOUR faith to hear Him or not? Because its not really "your" faith, as all faith stems from God. Maybe the knowledge of His voice also comes from.... HIM, and not us?

Maybe all faith is just that to the Lord? Faith. Who's to say who has more or less faith than another by what they hear, discernibly or not? No one has ever been able to force the Lord to talk to them. So why humanly try to separate folks into neat little groups by some humanly determined "faith level", when hearing the Lord speak depends upon God ALONE?

But thank you for this question, reminding me that all good things come from God and not from Man. Makes me appreciate the Lord even more, knowing NO ONE can ever push Him around or lure Him into our neat little boxes. I really like that about Him.


And he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and hear the voice from His mouth." Acts 22:14

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8, 9

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans: 9:16

 

[tiglathpileser]

I have read a lot of testimonials from those out of Iran and other Muslim countries which include voices and dreams which they acted upon and came to faith at risk of their very lives...was still skeptical. Since then, while doing some visits to a nursing home an old woman in a wheel chair said to me...God spoke to me in a loud voice when I was young. When I asked what He said to her she told me He said, "Amanda (? actual name),...you must be born again!"
She was convincing...there in her humble state and I don't even know, but wonder, if she had ever heard of such a phenomena occurring in her lifetime. I kinda believe all the testimonials now.

So glad you believe now as with this particular one the jury is no longer out. If it is then we have a lot of christian writers who are downright liars as my bookshelves are full of stories of muslims who saw Jesus in a dream or vision or had an encounter with him supernaturally in some way and as a result they come to faith in Christ. Some of these books say that this is happening to thousands of muslims, especially where Christians missionaries are banned from the country.

 

[tiglathpileser]

I do not hear voices, maybe you do.

The proof is in the pudding. The proof for miracles is in the miracles that you receive when you pray and ask God for a miracle. This has NOTHING to do with theology. It is purely testable and evidence based. Overwhelmingly evidence based. The Bible is refers to as the Old and New Testament or the Old and New Covenant. This represents a legal contract that God created with us. That means IF we do our part then we can be assured that God will do His part. That is what a Covenant is by definition. People just need to use the right dictionary and learn how to properly define the words that we use to build with.

As I said I did, why your comment "maybe you do."

As for your second comment, I am not sure what you are getting at.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Yes, and not all gifts for building up the church are miraculous in nature.

The word "gifts" in the original is "charisma" or "charismata" from which we get the word "charismatic." The word means "spiritual endowment."

In 1 Corinthians 12:1 the word "gifts" is not in the original. The original states.... But concerning the spiritual matters, brothers, I do not wish you to be ignorant. It then goes on to lists what the spiritual matters, or gifts are and it is evident that everyone of them are miraculous.

The list includes wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, working of powers, prophecy, discerning of spirits, languages and interpretation of languages.

I will use one as an example. I was the guest speaker at a men's breakfast and I spoke about certain things regarding to our personal walk with God. At the end I invited people who wanted prayer to indicate. A couple sat at the table nearest the podium indicated so. God spoke to me and said I was not to ask what they wanted prayer for, that he would tell me. I knelt down beside them and waited. The word incest came to me so I started praying accordingly. I did not use the word in my prayer as I did not want to embarrass the couple. Whilst I was praying the wife was in tears. When I finished praying I said to her, "incest wasn't it" She replied in the affirmative and we talked a little while.

At that moment in time God gave me a word of knowledge miraculously and I responded accordingly and which had positive results. My experience is that none of the gifts (spiritual matters) happen unless it is miraculous (beyond the knowledge or capability of the person involved to make it happen).

 

[Vicomte13]

Please dont accuse those who don't do miracles of lacking faith and being proud. The scriptures teach us to look at eternal things, not temporary things. Is that pride and lacking in faith? Nope.

Maybe Gods way is not to see miracles but to simply be separate from the world, to be holy, and walk in love. How do you know what Gods will is? Psalms says that God fashions everyone's heart individually, as he sees fit.

I have not seen anybody accuse you of lacking faith for the lack of miracles.

But I do see pride on full display in the suggestion that actual miracles from God are to be discounted. When God acts openly, it is not to be discounted. The Pharisees did that: Jesus healed people before everybody's eyes, but the Pharisees denied the divinity of it - they could not deny the FACT of it - and ascribed it to Satan instead. That's when Jesus warned that to attribute the divine to Satan was to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and that THAT would never, ever be forgiven.

Jesus told Thomas that those who had not seen and yet believed were blessed, but he ALSO provided Thomas what he needed - and note well, Thomas was the first in Scripture to call Jesus his GOD. "My Lord and my GOD." Nobody before that directly called Jesus GOD.

So, that miracle that Thomas needed, that Jesus gave him, moved Thomas, doubting Thomas, to a more absolute proclamation of faith than any other Apostle made. And in the end, Thomas followed that belief to a very nasty death, without wavering.

The word we translate into English as "Faith" does not mean "belief" - "faith in God" is NOT "belief that God exists". The word means TRUST. Everybody in the ancient world believed in God or gods. The question was whether or not a man TRUSTED God to carry through on his promises.

When Peter got out of the boat to walk on the water, and did walk on the water, it wasn't a matter of BELIEF in God's power. It was a question of TRUSTING God not to overwhelm him. Jesus was asking him why he didn't TRUST, not why he didn't BELIEVE.

Faith isn't belief. Literally, the word "fides" does not MEAN "belief". Bona fides - "good faith" - does not mean "good belief" - it means trustworthy. Fides is TRUST, not mental belief. Or, if one wants to use the word "believe", it has nothing to do with believing that God EXISTS, but believing that God will do as promised, that God will "keep faith", not that God IS there - that was ASSUMED by everybody on earth before the 19th Century - but that God will BE THERE for YOU.

Having faith means having trust. People who believe in God usually also believe in Satan, but they don't TRUST Satan - they don't have faith in Satan, but they certainly believe Satan exists.

 

[Hieronymus]

And many claims do not turn out to be ambiguous or suspicious.

I meant by "in one way or another" that it can be combined with ambiguous teaching and a focus being on prosperity and / or self-empowerment.

But i guess that can be said for most Christians and Christian trends.
Isn't this how the western Body of Christ is, the members (organs) seem to be 'dismembered' and (try to) operate autonomously.

Just look at all the denominations...
And they're all wrong one or more topics.

It is not a typical prosperity religion success story as I knew the man for 10 years (lived just down the street from him) and his definition of prosperity was having your NEEDS met and enough left over to meet other people's needs.

So who NEEDS a Jaguar?
Toyota would be the wiser choice i.m.o.

It is a typical prosperity religion success story.
But that doesn't mean it didn't happen ! !

So i should have said:
Stories like that make me question if it was God or the wannabe and his deception, to distract people from the Treasures in Heavens, and occupy them with earthly things and personal position / status there in.
Pride and the desires of the mind.
This often end up in pride and self-justification, arrogance.
Thinking they are holy and often seem to have no problem with the idea of eternal merciless punishment in hell for unbelievers.
But i guess we all have issues in one way or another..
But this is my experience from discussions with typical charismatic, modern evangelicals, Word of Faith, and other 'miracle worshipping' groups.

Look, i don't dismiss these stories, but they often raise questions.
In this case, it's the Jaguar.
But hey, who am i?
I'm not the strongest believer or the best example of repentance.

And maybe i'm jealous too, because i seek contact with God too, but it hasn't happened yet.
Meanwhile i get to know more and more about the evidence for God's existence and the truth of the Biblical account of reality, including history.
So the faith grows, because i see his Majesty in creation, in the universe and in life on earth.

You know, i think the miracles we (me in this case) hear about are like NDE's.
Some are in harmony with the theology of Scripture, and some are clearly not.
But it can be very subtle too, like almost right, but with a flaw in the essence somehow.
The sneaky snake, perhaps...

You don't have to defend your story.
My doubts or suspicions do not decide if something is true or not.

 

[tiglathpileser]

But I do see pride on full display in the suggestion that actual miracles from God are to be discounted. When God acts openly, it is not to be discounted. The Pharisees did that: Jesus healed people before everybody's eyes, but the Pharisees denied the divinity of it - they could not deny the FACT of it - and ascribed it to Satan instead. That's when Jesus warned that to attribute the divine to Satan was to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and that THAT would never, ever be forgiven.

A great post overall and this paragraph opened my eyes to the fact that what motivates atheists is pride. They are proud that they don't need to believe in God because they believe everything they need is found in who they are and what they have and judging by all their pejorative and snide remarks they think we are stupid to believe in the big daddy in the sky.That may be the case down here on earth but in the eternal kingdom, they are in for a big surprise.

Their pride is further emphasized when you post something that they cannot refute and it blows atheism out the window. their response is usually something of the nature "its been debunked" or "whats' your source" or "that's just a story" or "it never happened" or "I haven't heard of it" and so on and so on.

Mind you, In am not allowed to point out these facts because the atheists get upset and report me for being nasty so forget I said any of it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

At that moment in time God gave me a word of knowledge miraculously and I responded accordingly and which had positive results.

How did guessing something actually help these people? What benefit did they reap from this?

 

[Vicomte13]

Experiences might be the more dangerous, although those who actively deny the validity of any experiences probably do some damage.

Yes, they are. And the reason they are is because God is not the only spirit capable of speaking to a man, and not the only spirit capable of performing minor miracles. One certainly feels special when contacted by "the divine", but not every voice that speaks out of the air is good. But man, in his vanity, is very likely to consider himself blessed above all other men when spoken to and shown a miracle of some sort.

If "God" puts a dark cloud upon you, tells you to follow him, and then tells you that to do so you need to marry and impregnate as many women as possible, or when "God" speaks to you through the mouth of the neighbor's German Shepherd and tells you to go on a killing spree, or if "God" speaks to you and tells you to sacrifice your child to Him, you don't DO any of that. You challenge this spirit who has spoken to you and put "God" to the test. If "God" is taking all of the trouble to come down from Heaven to talk to YOU, and to command YOU, of all people, to break his moral laws, then you demand that this God perform many great and wondrous miracles for you to prove that he IS God before you break God's law. You demand that he heal the blind, heal many with AIDS, raise the dead - things that Satan cannot do. You make this voice with his cheap miracles prove that he's really GOD before you do some damnfool think like listen to a voice that tells you to kill your child or your neighbor.

Because some demon can talk to you, but no demon can raise the dead or heal the blind or cure AIDS. You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test, but you MUST put spirits that CLAIM TO BE the Lord, your God, to very vigorous tests if your "God" asks you to kill, or commit sexual immorality, or break the other laws that God has laid down in the past.

Can Satan cast out Satan, or heal the blind, or cure AIDS, or raise the dead? No. Would God ask you to kill somebody? Well, he DID ask Abraham to kill his child. If God asks you to kill YOUR child, you had best not be as cooperative as Abraham was. Make God cure AIDS and blindness and paralysis and raise the dead.

And as for my part, if God really did those things at my demand, when it came to my own child I would tell God: thanks for the miracles, but if you want my child, kill him yourself - I'm not going to do it, because I don't trust ANY spirit who asks me to do that enough to do that, not even you.

Which is why God would never put me to that test, because I would most certainly fail it.

 

[tiglathpileser]

I meant by "in one way or another" that it can be combined with ambiguous teaching and a focus being on prosperity and / or self-empowerment.

At the same time it need not be combined with ambiguous teaching.

But i guess that can be said for most Christians and Christian trends.

And I guess it cannot be said most Christians and Christian trends.

So who NEEDS a Jaguar?
Toyota would be the wiser choice i.m.o.

Oh dear, I have made a big mistake. I didn't ask God for Toyota when we got a new car the other week. We bought a Hyundai. Woe is me. I am out of the will of God. How silly of me to think that God would allow me to choose.

It is a typical prosperity religion success story.But that doesn't mean it didn't happen ! !

I did not know there was such a thing as typical prosperity religion story.

So i should have said:
Stories like that make me question if it was God or the wannabe and his deception, to distract people from the Treasures in Heavens, and occupy them with earthly things and personal position / status there in.

Tell me, how do you know so much about my friend Harry if you have never met him and how come you know more about him than I do even though I have known him for 10 years?

Pride and the desires of the mind. This often end up in pride and self-justification, arrogance.

You might like to take the advice of your own words.

Thinking they are holy and often seem to have no problem with the idea of eternal merciless punishment in hell for unbelievers.

Now you are wandering into the realm of fantasy.

But i guess we all have issues in one way or another..But this is my experience from discussions with typical charismatic, modern evangelicals, Word of Faith, and other 'miracle worshipping' groups.

Do tell me what TYPICAL charismatic, modern evangelical, word of faith and other miracle worshipping groups look like?

Look, i don't dismiss these stories, but they often raise questions.In this case, it's the Jaguar. But hey, who am i?
I'm not the strongest believer or the best example of repentance.

Judging by your post you do dismiss them and yes, who are you to tell God how he blesses his children?

And maybe i'm jealous too, because i seek contact with God too, but it hasn't happened yet.

Your Jaguar content certainly has a whiff of jealousy in it. When he got the car, I wasn't in the least bit jealous.

So the faith grows, because i see his Majesty in creation, in the universe and in life on earth.

In other words, don't bother me God if it means I have to step out and prove that what you say is true.

You know, i think the miracles we (me in this case) hear about are like NDE's.

What is an NDE?

You don't have to defend your story.

I always defend my stories in my friends are being unjustly maligned.

My doubts or suspicions do not decide if something is true or not.

Thank goodness for that. If that was the case we would all be lambs to the slaughter.

 

[tiglathpileser]

How did guessing something actually help these people? What benefit did they reap from this?

i can't answer that because I didn't guess anything.

 

[Hieronymus]

bold text

You seem to be offended.
That was not my intention.
I only explain why these things raise my eyebrows and that i could be wrong, and how different parts of the body work very differently.

NDE is Near Death Experience

 

[Albion]

Really? I heard it first about 30 years ago (long before I was a Presbyterian). It's a derogatory team used for Reformed folks, accusing us of being fatalists.

I caught the implication all right, but for some reason I just had never heard that expression. I'm sure if I were a Presbyterian or Christian Reformed, it would be different. For that matter, members of those churches might be similarly unfamiliar with terms that are used in my own denomination's conversations, like "spike" and" "High and hazy; low and lazy."

 

[Extraneous]

I have not seen anybody accuse you of lacking faith for the lack of miracles.

But I do see pride on full display in the suggestion that actual miracles from God are to be discounted. When God acts openly, it is not to be discounted. The Pharisees did that: Jesus healed people before everybody's eyes, but the Pharisees denied the divinity of it - they could not deny the FACT of it - and ascribed it to Satan instead. That's when Jesus warned that to attribute the divine to Satan was to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and that THAT would never, ever be forgiven.

Jesus told Thomas that those who had not seen and yet believed were blessed, but he ALSO provided Thomas what he needed - and note well, Thomas was the first in Scripture to call Jesus his GOD. "My Lord and my GOD." Nobody before that directly called Jesus GOD.

So, that miracle that Thomas needed, that Jesus gave him, moved Thomas, doubting Thomas, to a more absolute proclamation of faith than any other Apostle made. And in the end, Thomas followed that belief to a very nasty death, without wavering.

The word we translate into English as "Faith" does not mean "belief" - "faith in God" is NOT "belief that God exists". The word means TRUST. Everybody in the ancient world believed in God or gods. The question was whether or not a man TRUSTED God to carry through on his promises.

When Peter got out of the boat to walk on the water, and did walk on the water, it wasn't a matter of BELIEF in God's power. It was a question of TRUSTING God not to overwhelm him. Jesus was asking him why he didn't TRUST, not why he didn't BELIEVE.

Faith isn't belief. Literally, the word "fides" does not MEAN "belief". Bona fides - "good faith" - does not mean "good belief" - it means trustworthy. Fides is TRUST, not mental belief. Or, if one wants to use the word "believe", it has nothing to do with believing that God EXISTS, but believing that God will do as promised, that God will "keep faith", not that God IS there - that was ASSUMED by everybody on earth before the 19th Century - but that God will BE THERE for YOU.

Having faith means having trust. People who believe in God usually also believe in Satan, but they don't TRUST Satan - they don't have faith in Satan, but they certainly believe Satan exists.

Its not pride, its what i see. Faith to me is to follow holiness and love. Go ahead and do your miracles, im not stopping you.

 

[BukiRob]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Edit to rephrase the question.

Which requires more faith?

Yeshua himself said to Thomas:

But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yetbelieved.”

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I caught the implication all right, but for some reason I just had never heard that expression. I'm sure if I were a Presbyterian or Christian Reformed, it would be different. For that matter, members of those churches might be similarly unfamiliar with terms that are used in my own denomination's conversations, like "spike" and" "High and hazy; low and lazy."

Now you see, I haven't heard of those terms. (As if anyone cares) I prefer a church that is neither high, nor low, or has aspects of both. Since God is both transcendent and immanent.

 

[aiki]

In another thread on this topic in which I posted recently, I tried to get one charismatic poster to tell me how he discerned between real and counterfeit demonstrations of the gift of tongues, and prophecy, and healing. These are the gifts that are most frequently shown to have been counterfeited. The charismatic poster simply responded by explaining there is no need to discern in this area. All glossolalia, prophecies, and healings must be of the Spirit. And so there was no means he had in place to tell the fake from the real. As far as I'm concerned, this is a sure way to find yourself deceived.

A non-Christian friend of mine was invited to a Christian ladies weekend event out at a farm. They spent an entire Saturday on the second floor of a renovated barn enjoying fellowship with one another. At the end of afternoon just before the ladies were to return home, the door to the room in which the ladies were gathered was closed - and locked. The event leader then informed all the ladies that no one would leave the room until everyone had spoken in tongues. She thought this would be an exciting and emotional way to end the day but to my friend who was not a believer and never had - nor wished to - speak in tongues, this was a nightmarish idea. My friend maneuvered to be the very last of the ladies to speak in tongues, hoping some way to escape the situation would present itself before it was her turn. When finally everyone had spoken in tongues but her, my friend decided to make up a bunch of nonsense speech and hope it would pass muster. She "spoke in tongues" for about ten seconds and all the ladies were thrilled. Not one of them had the slightest doubt my friend's "tongue" was genuinely a sign of the Spirit. This experience horrified my friend on a number of levels and she has remained deeply cynical and skeptical toward Christianity ever since.

The lack of discernment among charismatics is sometimes quite shocking! Ever heard of Todd Bentley and his kick-you-in-the-face healing? He'll not only slap, punch, or kick you into a healing but he has claimed to have raised dozens of people from the dead! Morbidly curious about this guy, my brother took in one of Todd's meetings where he claimed he was only half-filled with the power of God (he could feel the power had only reached his waist) and needed more money from the audience in order to be entirely filled and capable of raising someone from the dead. And the money flowed in!

This profound lack of spiritual discernment is my biggest beef with the charismatic folk. God can and does act miraculously. But the devil is able to mimic the miraculous. Remember Jannes and Jambres? (Ex. 7:8-13; 2Ti. 3:8) Remember, too, Paul's warning?

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

As soon as people start claiming God did this or that and are not required to prove what they claim is truly of God, then falsehood and deception soon follows. This has been demonstrated again and again by the rise to popularity of religious charlatans like Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Dayna Muldoon, Beth Moore, and on and on. What is perhaps strangest of all is that even when these people are shown to be in error doctrinally, and false in their prophecies, and fake in their healings, they are still supported by frenzied crowds of people hungry for a show. Apparently, the lack of discernment runs very deep among those who embrace this sort of "experience of God."

Selah.

 

[Patmos]

....
When finally everyone had spoken in tongues but her, my friend decided to make up a bunch of nonsense speech and hope it would pass muster. She "spoke in tongues" for about ten seconds and all the ladies were thrilled. Not one of them had the slightest doubt my friend's "tongue" was genuinely a sign of the Spirit. This experience horrified my friend on a number of levels and she has remained deeply cynical and skeptical toward Christianity ever since.

The lack of discernment among charismatics is sometimes quite shocking! ....."

Selah.

I know of a similar incidence where a friends mother was coerced this way. Amusingly a member of the Church stood up and gave a translation! Needless to say it resulted in skepticism.

I agree with your statement about lack of decernment and I would like to hi-light a parallel situation. In my church there is a minority group who do 'healing'. They hold there hand out and supposedly beam energy into the recipient ( I am not talking about raising hands or anything like that). Sometimes they just touch and the recipient falls over. These people say it is their gift from God.

The parallel; something I have seen in martial arts training. I am in the camp that holds to off balancing your opponent and using their momentum for your own advantage. There is a 'mystic' branch that claim to use 'ki' ( or 'Chi') energy and the practice is the same as the charismatic 'gifts'. Google 'Dillman Karate' and you can see what I mean.

I believe all of it is deception: The proponent deluding themselves. The followers lacking discernment. In both the martial arts and charismatic world.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Paul boasted in nothing. He said all boasting is foolish. He taught that we should all have the same mind and strive for equality in all things. He said if someone should boast they should boast only in the Lord. This doesn't mean that we boast in spiritual gifts however or blessing of financial prosperity, it means that we boast in the Lords grace and his strength. To boast in financial prosperity, when your brothers are poor, is actually not boasting in the Lord at all.

Jeremiah 9:24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”

The key is in the bolded. How can anyone understand and know the Lord w/o seeing and hearing.

I think the miraculous is being overstated in this thread.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The lack of discernment among charismatics is sometimes quite shocking! Ever heard of Todd Bentley and his kick-you-in-the-face healing?

It is shocking in one sense, but understandable in another. When you determine truth by experience, e.g. "When I feel a warm sensation and tingling, I know that is the presence of God", (which I read in a thread called "Feeling the Presence of God") then anything goes. Truth is objective because it comes to us from outside of ourselves from God.

Although people say such things all of the time, you can not feel something is true. You must use your coconut and your Bible to determine truth.

As soon as people start claiming God did this or that and are not required to prove what they claim is truly of God, then falsehood and deception soon follows. This has been demonstrated again and again by the rise to popularity of religious charlatans like Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Dayna Muldoon, Beth Moore, and on and on. What is perhaps strangest of all is that even when these people are shown to be in error doctrinally, and false in their prophecies, and fake in their healings, they are still supported by frenzied crowds of people hungry for a show. Apparently, the lack of discernment runs very deep among those who embrace this sort of "experience of God."

Discernment is not even a category when your basis is experience. How can we tell someone that their experience is not valid or not from God, as they think it is? It's impossible, and many of the people you name count on that.

Discernment can only be used when there is an actual teaching to examine. Teaching can be compared and contrasted with scripture, but experience can't.