.

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Having been a baptist myself, I too shunned away from anything supernatural as I had been taught that was for Pentecostals. We Baptists don't need things like that. At the time I had no reason to disbelieve them as they were wonderful people and I had been saved and grew up amongst them. When that is your environment you tend to rationalise away other people's experience and teaching and you only listen to people who agree with you. They even went as far as to say only the Baptists were right. You can guess how wonderful I felt having been chosen by God to be part of the perfect.

What I found was that making such a comment like the above was my way of coping and excusing the fact that I did not have any such experiences myself and neither did my denomination and even more was an excuse for not having such experiences.

It all came apart at the seams when I moved town and joined a baptist church that became charismatic whilst there. They were baptists OK, they were wonderful people, and they were not over the top. But the fact was they were proving what I believed was wrong.

When I stopped trying to rationalise my previous beliefs and opened myself to the new paradigm, I found that what they said and did was better. Consequently, whilst in a young people's prayer meeting I started speaking in tongues quite spontaneously. As they say, the rest is history.

My advice for what it is worth is to hold on to what you have but don't reject what you haven't until you know that God is or is not in it. For that to happen you need an open mind and heart. Approaching anything with a closed mind will only result in one thing. Prejudice making your decisions for you.

Thanks for continuing the dialogue. I have myself experienced direct communications from God and I deeply cherish the memories. I have not experienced glossolalia . . . and it never seemed to me that it would serve any purpose for me. But such experiences do seem to build faith in others, and I would not deny any that benefit.

 

[Extraneous]

God never commanded us to do anything but bear fruit. Love is the greatest. John the baptist didn't perform any signs, yet he is the greatest man ever to be born, according to Christs words, but those in the kingdom will be greater than he, and the least will be greatest in the kingdom. Many people will say to the lord that they did miracles but the Lord will say he never knew them. ITs all about bearing fruit, in my opinion, not spiritual gifts.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

2 Corinthians 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but I am testing the sincerity of your love by the diligence of others. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

10 And in this I give advice: It is to your advantage not only to be doing what you began and were desiring to do a year ago; 11 but now you also must complete the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to desire it, so there also may be a completion out of what you have. 12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.

13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; 14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack—that there may be equality. 15 As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”


Acts 4:32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. 34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold,

 

[Extraneous]

Expounding on my last post, i remembered this scripture as well. James talks about faith here, and he doesn't mention any spiritual gifts at all, but he mentions helping the poor. Think of this in the light of the above scripture.

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”[c] Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f]

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God gives us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. He does not speak in a voice that we can hear. A miracle is a restoration of the way things should be. So it is difficult to prove a miracle because you have to show where something was wrong and broken but is now fixed or normal and the way it should be. People often try to argue there was never a problem in the first place.

I agree with you. I was simply giving those to claim such things the benefit of the doubt.

 

[throughfierytrial]

I agree with you. I was simply giving those to claim such things the benefit of the doubt.

I have read a lot of testimonials from those out of Iran and other Muslim countries which include voices and dreams which they acted upon and came to faith at risk of their very lives...was still skeptical. Since then, while doing some visits to a nursing home an old woman in a wheel chair said to me...God spoke to me in a loud voice when I was young. When I asked what He said to her she told me He said, "Amanda (? actual name),...you must be born again!"
She was convincing...there in her humble state and I don't even know, but wonder, if she had ever heard of such a phenomena occurring in her lifetime. I kinda believe all the testimonials now.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Does the question assume "signs and wonders" are a reward for some higher level of faith

No.

My understanding of, e.g., the Gospel of John and books of Hebrews and Colossians, suggests Jesus is the apex and culmination of God's revelation to man and that Jesus appointed His disciple/apostles, by means of the guidance and reminders of the Holy Spirit, in effect to pen a "Jesus canon" like the old (the OT) so that altogether "the man (or woman) of God may be ... equipped for every good work" (cf. 2 Tim. 3:16-17) as God works in the believer to will and to act according to His good purpose (Phil 2:13).

Agreed.

Then why are "signs and wonders" needed nowadays? If they come (cf. dreams of Jesus among Iranian Muslims), are they consistent with the apex and culmination of divine revelation or contrary to it?

That is a good question.

It may be a bit much even to summarize here, but Paul in 2 Cor. 10-12, among other things, counters his boastful opponents by boasting in turn, but turning the categories of boasting on their heads--boasting in his weaknesses--toward the end of which list, Paul boasts of "a man in Christ" (12:2) who had "visions and revelations of the Lord" (12:1) concerning which content it was forbidden to speak (v. 4).

Great point. Paul and the other apostles never appeared on TBN to sell books about their experiences with Jesus. They had more amazing experiences than any of ever will, yet that was never the focus of their teaching or preaching. The thing of utmost importance to them was not sensational experiences, but the gospel. The gospel was their focus and their message. It trumped everything else.

Then Paul obliquely admits "to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations ..." (v. 7). What revelations? Cf. v. 1. Whose revelations? His own revelations about which it is forbidden to speak.

Yes.

gifts are evidence of faith and we are to eagerly seek the greater gifts...not to prop ourselves up but rather to minister to the Body of Christ...I Corinthians 12:31

Yes, and not all gifts for building up the church are miraculous in nature.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You know, I'd never heard that term (frozen chosen) before

Really? I heard it first about 30 years ago (long before I was a Presbyterian). It's a derogatory team used for Reformed folks, accusing us of being fatalists.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I have read a lot of testimonials from those out of Iran and other Muslim countries which include voices and dreams which they acted upon and came to faith at risk of their very lives...was still skeptical. Since then, while doing some visits to a nursing home an old woman in a wheel chair said to me...God spoke to me in a loud voice when I was young. When I asked what He said to her she told me He said, "Amanda (? actual name),...you must be born again!"
She was convincing...there in her humble state and I don't even know, but wonder, if she had ever heard of such a phenomena occurring in her lifetime. I kinda believe all the testimonials now.

This isn't exactly what I was referring to in the OP. It's not about a one-off experience, but a constant experiential faith walk that I was addressing.

 

[Norbert L]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

It is neither those who see and hear or those who don't see and hear that have more faith. It is also both those who see and hear or those who don't see and hear that have more faith.

I've experienced two definite times of divine intervention in my life. The first is immediate irrefutable answered prayer and the second was the hearing of two Christians speak English as plain as day when they were actually voicing their thoughts in Italian. Neither time was I seeking to "have more faith" albeit it certainly is not a wrong thing at all to ask for it. Mark 9:24

Christians are individuals and God deals with our needs individually. So I would consider the question you propose as being classified as one of those "loaded questions".

 

[Extraneous]

Paul boasted in nothing. He said all boasting is foolish. He taught that we should all have the same mind and strive for equality in all things. He said if someone should boast they should boast only in the Lord. This doesn't mean that we boast in spiritual gifts however or blessing of financial prosperity, it means that we boast in the Lords grace and his strength. To boast in financial prosperity, when your brothers are poor, is actually not boasting in the Lord at all.

Jeremiah 9:24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”

 

[2 know him]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Edit to rephrase the question.

Which requires more faith?

Our faith should result in miracles, not the other way around.

If our faith is actually producing miracles, verses one whose faith doesn't, then for sure the one whose faith produces miracles is stronger. But does a faith that produces miracles justify one over the other? No, in the end the lives we live is the proof of the kind of faith that saves, but should that practical faith in Christ produce miracles? Jesus absolutely said it should:

Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


Mar 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
Mar 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[Extraneous]

Our faith should result in miracles, not the other way around.

If our faith is actually producing miracles, verse one whose faith doesn't, then for sure the one whose faith produces miracles is stronger. But does a faith that produces miracles justify one over the other? No, in the end the lives we live is the proof of the kind of faith that saves, but should that practical faith in Christ produce miracles? Jesus absolutely said it should:

Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

I don't believe that is true. Satan will deceive the world with signs and wonders. John the baptist didn't do any signs and wonders at all, yet he died for Christ. Paul says that not all have the gift of miracles, but he says that love is the greatest. A person who gives up their life for the brethren are the greatest in the kingdom, i.e. give up lands, family, wealth, status, and even life. Miracles are the least of things, love is the greatest. Look at Christs healing in Mathew 9. Jesus simply says, be of good cheer your sins are forgiven, and that shows Gods love. It was only after the pharisees, who needed to see signs and wonders, accused him of blasphemy that he did the miracle. However the miracle was to show that Christ had power to forgive sin which is the greatest thing, Greater than the healing itself.


John 4:48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.




Its about believing that Gods forgives sin and gives eternal life, buts its not about believing in miracles of healing and other such things. Paul tells us that we look not at what is temporary (healing is temporary) but instead at what is eternal (eternal life) Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word.


John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

That You May Believe
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[2 know him]

I don't believe that is true. Satan will deceive the world with signs and wonders. John the baptist didn't do any signs and wonders at all, yet he died for Christ. Paul says that not all have the gift of miracles, but he says that love is the greatest. A person who gives up their life for the brethren are the greatest in the kingdom, i.e. give up lands, family, wealth, status, and even life. Miracles are the least of things, love is the greatest. Look at Christs healing in Mathew 9. Jesus simply says, be of good cheer your sins are forgiven, and that shows Gods love. It was only after the pharisees, who needed to see signs and wonders, accused him of blasphemy that he did the miracle. However the miracle was to show that Christ had power to forgive sin which is the greatest thing, Greater than the healing itself.


John 4:48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.




Its about believing that Gods forgives sin and gives eternal life, buts its not about believing in miracles of healing and other such things. Paul tells us that we look not at what is temporary (healing is temporary) but instead at what is eternal (eternal life) Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word.


John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

That You May Believe
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

What part don't you believe is true? I didn't say that miracles were necessary for salvation, I said "does a faith that produces miracles justify one (person) over the other? No, in the end the lives we live is the proof of the kind of faith that saves". What are you disagreeing with?

 

[Extraneous]

What part don't you believe is true? I didn't say that miracles were necessary for salvation, I said "does a faith that produces miracles justify one (person) over the other? No, in the end the lives we live is the proof of the kind of faith that saves". What are you disagreeing with?

You seemed to suggest that those who do miracles are greater than those who don't. However, the greatest is love. There is no greater thing. Paul didn't boast in miracles, but in weakness, He gloried in necessities not riches, and in infirmities, not miracles. The Power of Christ was not that God should deliver him out of every deadly peril necessarily, because if that were true then Stephan wouldn't have been stoned to death. No, Paul escaped many perils only so he would suffer more! And so he could finish his mission to preach in Rome. Paul's example is one of finding inner strength to endure, not miraculous deliverance from suffering. Its about finding a deeper relationship with Christ, not about having an abundant life on earth. We look at eternal things, not temporary things.

 

[2 know him]

You seemed to suggest that those who do miracles are greater than those who don't. However, the greatest is love. There is no greater thing. Paul didn't boast in miracles, but in weakness, He gloried in necessities not riches, and in infirmities, not miracles. The Power of Christ was not that God should deliver him out of every deadly peril necessarily, because if that were true then Stephan wouldn't have been stoned to death. No, Paul escaped many perils only so he would suffer more! And so he could finish his mission to preach in Rome. Paul's example is one of finding inner strength to endure, not miraculous deliverance from suffering. Its about finding a deeper relationship with Christ, not about having an abundant life on earth. We look at eternal things, not temporary things.

I was absolutely not suggesting or stating that. All I was saying is that Jesus could not do miracles because of peoples unbelief and one who believes is far more likely to see a miracle then one who doesn't. In the end it is saving faith that matters and that is had in acceptance and adherence to Christ's teachings on walking love, not in you ability to believe in God for the miraculous.

The original post struggled with the deference between saving faith and faith which causes the miraculous and they are different and that is how they must be understood and that is the aim of my post: to show the separation in the two.

 

[Hieronymus]

What I have noticed over the last few years is that as interest has gathered momentum in people experiencing God, not just knowing about him, more and more people are admitting that God talking to them is a foreign concept beyond the Sunday sermon or what they read in scripture.

Many claims turn out to be ambiguous or suspicious too, in one way or another...

Another friend of mine who was in ministry (now deceased) was needing a new car as he had given away the previous one he owned. He told the Lord of the need for a car and please could he have a Jaguar. A few days later, a Christian car dealer who he had said nothing to, rang up and said on the phone "God has told me to give you a Jaguar car."

That's a good example of an ambiguous story i.m.o.
It's a typical prosperity religion success story.

 

[Extraneous]

I was absolutely not suggesting or stating that. All I was saying is that Jesus could not do miracles because of peoples unbelief and one who believes is far more likely to see a miracle then one who doesn't. In the end it is saving faith that matters and that is had in acceptance and adherence to Christ's teachings on walking love, not in you ability to believe in God for the miraculous.

The original post struggled with the deference between saving faith and faith which causes the miraculous and they are different and that is how they must be understood and that is the aim of my post: to show the separation in the two.

I believe you are saying that still, however you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Many claims turn out to be ambiguous or suspicious too, in one way or another...That's a good example of an ambiguous story i.m.o. It's a typical prosperity religion success story.

And many claims do not turn out to be ambiguous or suspicious.

It is not a typical prosperity religion success story as I knew the man for 10 years (lived just down the street from him) and his definition of prosperity was having your NEEDS met and enough left over to meet other people's needs.

I remember in one meeting I was involved with him he made it quite clear he would not take a single dollar of the offering for himself as he had a conference for Ministers in Africa coming up and the money would go towards paying for the ministers to come to the conference because they were so poor.

He was not spinning a yarn as I took care of the finances so I saw where everything went.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Don't want to put a dampener on what you have said but in my experience, God does speak in a voice that you can hear.

I do not hear voices, maybe you do.

And in my experience, the people who argue that there never was a problem in the first place usually (but not always) are trying to defend their incorrect theology.

The proof is in the pudding. The proof for miracles is in the miracles that you receive when you pray and ask God for a miracle. This has NOTHING to do with theology. It is purely testable and evidence based. Overwhelmingly evidence based. The Bible is refers to as the Old and New Testament or the Old and New Covenant. This represents a legal contract that God created with us. That means IF we do our part then we can be assured that God will do His part. That is what a Covenant is by definition. People just need to use the right dictionary and learn how to properly define the words that we use to build with.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I was absolutely not suggesting or stating that. All I was saying is that Jesus could not do miracles because of peoples unbelief and one who believes is far more likely to see a miracle then one who doesn't. In the end it is saving faith that matters and that is had in acceptance and adherence to Christ's teachings on walking love, not in you ability to believe in God for the miraculous.

It is not always the person that receives the miracle that is having faith to believe to receive. It could be a parent, an employer or even friends from the various stores we read in the Bible.