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[Hieronymus]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

I'd say he / she who has nothing to show for it, yet believes, repents and shares the Word, has more faith than he / she who has seen / heard God in a supernatural way.

I'm one of the first group, but i wish God would give me some sign or anything, because my faith is not that strong...


hmmm... sounds a bit contradictory...

 

[Extraneous]

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

That's it right there. Its my opinion that no matter what we see in this world, its only temporary, and we should look instead to eternal things. Sure we can hope and pray for healing and all that, but if we dont see it, it means nothing because these things are only temporary anyway.

2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Hieronymus]

Yeah, but some kind of revelation or intervention from God would certainly boost my faith...

 

[Extraneous]

Yeah, but some kind of revelation or intervention from God would certainly boost my faith...

I find that meditating on the Word helps me personally. I believe its full of blessing. Not that i am without struggle and doubt at times, because i do endure great battles inside. It takes more faith to endure when we don't see. It takes a heart willing to endure brother. Anyone can praise God when everything goes well. Its not in those times that our faith is seen, but its in the times that we have nothing but doubts and fears, and yet we persevere, that's when faith is seen in my opinion. Look at Thomas, he had to see in order to change his doubt. WE are blessed because we dont see. Faith isn't a perpetual magical peace in my opinion, but its instead a battle at times. Paul said fight the good fight of faith. Joel chapter three says let the week say i am strong. Its a battle we are called into. Faith is not seen in riches and living at ease all the time, but its seen in perseverance and fortitude. Its not seen by miracles, but is seen by perseverance.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

 

[Extraneous]

Again, its not about temporary things like miracles, but is about eternal things.

Revelation 14:13....“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.

 

[Hieronymus]

...well, i could do better in the fruit department...
I'm a tenacious sinner...
I'm not exactly Agape in the flesh either...

I'm postponing a prayer request for my life as a Christian, but i fear the disappointment if it doesn't make any difference..
Is that faith?
Sounds more like doubt to me...

 

[Extraneous]

Cant leave this one out.


Isaiah 30:21 Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,
“This is the way, walk in it,”
Whenever you turn to the right hand
Or whenever you turn to the left.

 

[Extraneous]

...well, i could do better in the fruit department...
I'm a tenacious sinner...
I'm not exactly Agape in the flesh either...

Sound like faith to me. The parable of the pharisee and tax collector come to mind. Sure we should judge ourselves, but in the end we should also consider ourselves dead. (Colossians 3) Faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen. I dont know about others, but i die daily. Its all i can do sometimes. I try my best, and the Lord will judge.

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do,forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.


Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Hieronymus]

Thanks bro, i appreciate it.

 

[tiglathpileser]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

My experience has taught me that it is not a question of faith. It is a question of our willingness to lay down our pride and to tell God we will do things his way, not ours. If we will do this, God will give us all the faith we need to move into the realm of the supernatural, which has been part of the church since day one.

A few months ago a dozen or so of our young people went on their first mission trip to Africa. They preached at meetings and made themselves available to pray for healings as none of them were doctors. In their report they told us of the healings that happened at their hands and it was very obvious that they could only have happened if God was doing the healing. None of them claimed to be the reason for the healing. As far as they were concerned it was all God's doing.

With the obedience came the faith to obey God and pronounce his healing power over the problem.

 

[tiglathpileser]

My experience has taught me that it is not a question of faith. It is a question of our willingness to lay down our pride and to tell God we will do things his way, not ours. If we will do this, God will give us all the faith we need to move into the realm of the supernatural, which has been part of the church since day one.

A few months ago a dozen or so of our young people went on their first mission trip to Africa. They preached at meetings and made themselves available to pray for healings as none of them were doctors. In their report they told us of the healings that happened at their hands and it was very obvious that they could only have happened if God was doing the healing. None of them claimed to be the reason for the healing. As far as they were concerned it was all God's doing.

With the obedience came the faith to obey God and pronounce his healing power over the problem.

I had a case recently where we were told of a young man that had cracked his skull on the concrete after being king hit. The hospital said that they could do nothing for him and that he would be a vegetable for the rest of his life so we were asked to pray for him.

God spoke to me very clearly that we were to pay him a visit in the hospital and lay hands on him and pray for his healing. To facilitate this in an ongoing way, we were to put a prayer cloth under his pillow. I shared this with the house group and they agreed to do this. Three of us went to the hospital and did as we were told with the approval of the hospital staff and his parents.

He is now at home up and about and not a vegetable, the product not of faith but obedience.

 

[Extraneous]

My experience has taught me that it is not a question of faith. It is a question of our willingness to lay down our pride and to tell God we will do things his way, not ours. If we will do this, God will give us all the faith we need to move into the realm of the supernatural, which has been part of the church since day one.

A few months ago a dozen or so of our young people went on their first mission trip to Africa. They preached at meetings and made themselves available to pray for healings as none of them were doctors. In their report they told us of the healings that happened at their hands and it was very obvious that they could only have happened if God was doing the healing. None of them claimed to be the reason for the healing. As far as they were concerned it was all God's doing.

With the obedience came the faith to obey God and pronounce his healing power over the problem.

Please dont accuse those who don't do miracles of lacking faith and being proud. The scriptures teach us to look at eternal things, not temporary things. Is that pride and lacking in faith? Nope.

Maybe Gods way is not to see miracles but to simply be separate from the world, to be holy, and walk in love. How do you know what Gods will is? Psalms says that God fashions everyone's heart individually, as he sees fit.

 

[joshua 1 9]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

God gives us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. He does not speak in a voice that we can hear. A miracle is a restoration of the way things should be. So it is difficult to prove a miracle because you have to show where something was wrong and broken but is now fixed or normal and the way it should be. People often try to argue there was never a problem in the first place.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Where there is room for discussion here is in the idea that the "frozen chosen" (me) have little faith, while those who are more experiential have much faith.

Mother Teresa had some experiences early on but then no more. For a few years she felt very close to our Lord but then for decades felt distant. This came out in some of her letters after her death. In fact one of the 'new atheists', Christopher Hitchens, thought it was an indictment of her faith showing her faith to be a sham and a practical atheist herself. She had the memory of those experiences but lived most of her life 'frozen'. She had huge faith. She would pray and her prayers were so often answered.

I think we are given experience based on our awareness AND on our need. We can shut our eyes to experience, or we might just not need it so much. For me I need it, I'm a needy guy that way, and so once in a while it happens. Mother Teresa was probably much stronger. Maybe there are others so much more strong in their faith that they never need experience and they live with their occasional doubts, which we all have if we are honest.

I don't begrudge anyone for their experiences or lack of experiences. Experiences might be the more dangerous, although those who actively deny the validity of any experiences probably do some damage. This is a 'test everything and retain what is good' situation where the experiences are what are to be tested, not the basis for testing everything else.

 

[fhansen]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

While faith without seeing is always superior, this might be a bit of an unfair comparison. From my understanding of the "real thing", of those relatively few people I've read or known, etc, who've had such "private revelations" as they're sometimes called, they're pretty much always given to those who're already faithful, who have a heart for God, and then always at His discretion and for His purposes. These people already believed IOW and did not necessarily at all covet such divine contact to begin with-and many of the experiences are never even mentioned publicly. Any of us might receive in this way at any time for all we know. While being very discerning-there's tons of phony stuff prevalent today- I just don't think we should summarily dismiss these experiences, as God may well continue to work profitably through people in these ways.

 

[Hieronymus]

the product not of faith but obedience.

"lest ye shall boast" springs to mind...
But you do have a valid point.

Either way, great story, glory to God.

 

[Tree of Life]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Great question. I just finished a paper for my Master's course in the Gospels. I chose to write on the subject of faith in the Gospel of John. Believe it or not, John addresses this directly. For John, signs and wonders are a legitimate means of faith, but they are always a weak foundation for faith. Jesus grieves over those who "will not believe unless they see signs". And he says to Thomas (after Thomas saw the risen Christ): "You have seen and believe. Blessed are those who have not seen and still believe."

So a sign-based faith is a true faith, but a weak faith. A word-based faith is of the strongest and most mature variety.

 

[throughfierytrial]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

In answer to your question...who has more faith...we don't know. I also venture a guess that among those who hear or see there would be mixed results...some more, some less, some may even fall away at some point due to severe persecution, a greater love for the world or tempted away by other means. Same can be said of those converts who had no such spiritual experience.
Some are given more and more is expected by God, as the passage goes, some are given less and less is expected. We also have the parable of the workers in which those who were hired last reaped the same reward as those hired first. The thief on the cross and the sinful Mary and many such other examples are given to us, I believe, as an illustration of how faith works and what type of faith God rewards while outsiders looking in may judge such folks in an entirely different way. We read what Jesus told Thomas who doubted and I suppose that is a very good answer for your question as well.

To read the message, or hear it, and to act upon it is to have a powerful spiritual experience. All conversions are profound. In close, I believe that the measure of faith we have is independent of our spiritual experiences.

 

[Widlast]

St. Padre Pio said (and I am paraphrasing) "God shows Himself to some, and hides Himself from others, know that it is all a game of love."
God will show Himself to individuals for whom it will help their growth, and hides Himself for others so they will pursue Him.
In my case, I have seen quite a few miracles and supernatural occurrences. Such things do not often foster any faith (faith being trust in God, not belief).

Judas saw all the same miracles the rest of the apostles saw, for some reason he was not as impressed as the rest.

 

[Strong in Him]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Good question, Brian.

The thing is that people can see the most amazing miracles and still not believe. Like when the Pharisees saw Jesus driving out demons and said he did it by the power of the devil. We read of other occasions where Jesus' miracles split the crowd; some were in awe, some weren't. Even the disciples saw Jesus walking on water and calming a storm, and still didn't completely believe in him. Also on the day of Pentecost, some marvelled because they heard the disciples speaking in many languages; others just mocked, thinking that they were drunk.
So miracles don't always produce, or lead to, faith.

Maybe some people want to believe but need to see a miracle to persuade them to take the step of faith, whereas others would only do so after being convinced by facts or logical argument. If that was the case, then there isn't really an answer to the question - different people need different things.

Does this make sense, or have I just been waffling? It's been a long day!