.

[jimmyjimmy]

I do think people here regularly misinterpret scripture, but that is a result of insufficient study or sometimes stubbornness. The truth of scripture can, with sufficient study, be determined. Not like people having these strong feelings where it is either:
A. God telling them something.
B. Their own over-active imagination.
C. A counterfeit from demons

And there is no sure way of telling which it is. People usually assume option A and obey the message regardless, but it could well be B or C. Which is dangerous in the extreme.

In my book of course A doesn't even exit, it is either B or C, because nowhere in scripture is this method of revelation taught. It is an entirely man-made teaching.

This sums it up well, and I agree.

I'm not questioning anyone's experience. I'm questioning only the origins of it, and I'm doing so with the Bible in my hand. After seeking the biblical basis for these experiences, I have not found it.

 

[sunlover1]

Me accusing people of dishonoring scripture? Apart from the chap earlier who said scripture was "a secondhand note written by a stranger"

Well you've insinuated things like this about me too, and it's deceitful, because someone
might read what you've written and then believe that I've done such a thing.
God exalts His Word above all of His Name, and so I defend His Word at every opportunity.

I do think people here regularly misinterpret scripture though, but that is a result of insufficient study or sometimes stubbornness. The truth of scripture can, with sufficient study, be determined. Not like people having these strong feelings where it is either:
A. God telling them something.
B. Their own over-active imagination.
C. A counterfeit from demons

And there is no sure way of telling which it is. People usually assume option A and obey the message regardless, but it could well be B or C. Which is dangerous in the extreme.

In my book of course A doesn't even exit, it is either B or C, because nowhere in scripture is this method of revelation taught. It is an entirely man-made teaching.

It's not a teaching, it's a 'hearing' of our Father.
It's a 'way of life". God created us to be in close relation
ship with Him. How can we have that intimacy if we don't
communicate?
No one 'taught' me to hear God as a child, God
Himself revealed Himself to me, as He is known to do!
Should He talk to you when you insist He wont. Isn't it
faith that pleases God? in fact without faith isn't it
IMPOSSIBLE to please Him? What need is there for faith
according to your understanding?

BTW, I have studied His word for many years, and so if we
may be mistaken, certainly you can be just as easily.
One thing I can be certain of. If I am filled with HIs Spirit,..
If I have meditated on His Word (that I might not sin against
Him)... If I have hidden His Word in my heart... and if I live
my life to please Him, my Husband, my Prince, my Life...
.. I'm not going to be sitting around wondering who's
voice is telling me that He's heard my friend cry and seen
her tears and He's giving her a baby (She was sterile)
And then, on another occasion, Who's voice "woke" me in the
night (with a bright light too!), to tell me to pray for another
woman who was 40 and wanted nothing more than to have a
baby, but was told by doctors that there's no way.. The tubes
were for the most part non existant due to disease.... and in
fact, I knew they did NOT want kids at this late age, (so I
thought, but God knows the heart of the barren woman)? Maybe
that was the devil too? Because he's in the business of fortelling
the future? NO.. He can't heal, He kills, steals and destroys. And
he couldn't have foretold the future because he doesn't have the
Holy Spirit so can't even understand prophesy.
Her baby just had his first baby btw! Granny and grandpa take
care of that baby full time while mommy works and are in Heaven
on earth. Praise the Name of Jesus!
I have more! Please don't say it's in my head or that it's demons.
We hear God's voice, .. He said we would...
Perhaps investigation rather than condemnation would
find the truth that all can agree upon.
IT's in the Scriptures, just as clearly as the Trinity is there.
It's just something some cannot see. (or are, in your words,
stubborn?)

 

[sunlover1]

This sums it up well, and I agree.

I'm not questioning anyone's experience. I'm questioning only the origins of it, and I'm doing so with the Bible in my hand. After seeking the biblical basis for these experiences, I have not found it.

take that bible and get on your knees with fasting and prayer for a few days and ask HIM,
sincerely, if this is or is not His voice, and then tell us what you find.
Because you're obviously missing something in your Bible.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

take that bible and get on your knees with fasting and prayer for a few days and ask HIM,
sincerely, if this is or is not His voice, and then tell us what you find.
Because you're obviously missing something in your Bible.

The invitation has been open for over 500 posts, yet no one has provided convincing scriptural backing for it. When pressed, a few have resorted to calling me names, but that often happens when there is no other option - no good argument.

 

[Arsenios]

That doesn't answer my question. Why would God be so foolish as to use a method of revelation that can so easily be counterfeited?

I do not think you recognized my answer to your "Foolish God" question...

Here it is again:

God WISELY permits deception in this fallen world with our fallen souls...
That is a great Grace from God...
That we 'come to ourselves' with the Prodigal, and return to our Father...

Remember the Prodigal Son?

You could as easily ask why would God be so foolish as to let Adam fall...

It is not a wise question...

Adam was easily deceived, by your standards, yes?

Arsenios

 

[sunlover1]

The invitation has been open for over 500 posts, yet no one has provided convincing scriptural backing for it. When pressed, a few have resorted to calling me names, but that often happens when there is no other option - no good argument.

There have been Scripture posted and they've been waved away as
not meaning what they seem to. The Bible is full of demonstrations
of God speaking to His people. In fact, if not for Him speaking to His
people, there would be no Bible.
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of
one's own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act
of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

 

[Peter J Barban]

It is called simply being honest...

We are in a world of Good and evil...
We are born dead and will die...
God teaches us to test the spirits...

Remember the woman who followed Paul around? The one telling the future? How she wouldn't leave him alone? And how he finally told that thing to depart from her, and it did? THAT is the world we live in... We have Good AND evil within us, and we have responsibility, primarily for ourselves, and then for others, to God... God wants us to freely choose Him, and warns us of the cost of discipleship. Do you need scriptures for each of these statements? Or can you talk with me?

God WISELY permits deception in this fallen world with our fallen souls...
That is a great Grace from God...
That we 'come to ourselves' with the Prodigal, and return to our Father...

Arsenios

I agree with Arsenios.
The understanding the reality of spiritual warfare is essential to effective Christian ministry. Satan tries to counterfeit everything God does in order to create confusion. It was that way even in the conflict of Moses vs Pharoah.

That is why we need a church, an assembly of mature, spirit-filled believers whose gifts work together to make up the body of Christ. Some have gifts of wisdom, some have gifts of teaching and some have gifts of revelation. As a church, with Christ as our head, we take enemy ground and defend each other from the snares of the enemy.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

There have been Scripture posted and they've been waved away as
not meaning what they seem to. The Bible is full of demonstrations
of God speaking to His people. In fact, if not for Him speaking to His
people, there would be no Bible.
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of
one's own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act
of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

A couple of verses taken out out context is no argument. If they were substantial arguments they would not have ben so easily "waved away".

Is the Bible still being written today?

 

[Don Maurer]

A couple of verses taken out out context is no argument. If they were substantial arguments they would not have ben so easily "waved away".

Is the Bible still being written today?

Agreed. In fact the verse they refer too here (Heb 1:2) refers to Christ's earthly ministry. Christ is no longer bodily on earth.

In the context, the writer of Hebrews developed his thought further in Chapter 2:3-4
how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard; God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will.
Notice that the revelation spoken of in Heb 1:2 and then again in 2:3 was "first been spoken through the Lord." This is not speak of some later revelation, but rather the apostolic revelation of when Christ was on earth. The Apostles were the ones who "confirmed unto us by them that heard."

Added to this is the purpose for sign gifts. Sign gifts related to an age when there are apostles on earth who heard Christ during his earthly ministry. The scripture speaks of God "bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will." This refers to the tongues, miracles, healing and supernatural events that surrounded the apostles who walked with Christ in his earthly ministry. These supernatural powers were present in the ministries of the apostles because they --bore witness-- to the fact that the 12 men and Paul were revelatory apostles who walked the earth bodily with our Lord.

This also occurs in 2Cor 12:12 "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, by signs and wonders and mighty works." In this text please note the phrase "signs of an apostle." Again, you can see the concept of the supernatural that surrounded the apostolic witness.

I totally agree with you that if there is oral revelation, there would be written revelation. That was the apostolic method. I would also add the criteria that Christ must be bodily on earth during the lives of the men making the revelation. The only exception to this would be Paul, the apostle "born out of due season."

The other side throws verses up on the screen, but then does not defend their own interpretation of those verses. They jump up and down and cheer themselves and claim, "I quoted scripture" and then seem to care nothing for the fact that they quoted them out of context. If we reply and demonstrate that their quote is out of context, the argument made is ignored.

 

[Arsenios]

I've asked you nicely to stay on topic, but have failed to respect the forum rules, so I've had to reach out to the mods for help.

If the question is "Is prayer a two way conversation with God" and one answer is "No, that stopped with the Apostles" then the counter argument would seem to be: "The early Christian post-Apostolic martyrs talked with God and here is their testimony..." would seem to be on topic...

Am I missing something obvious??

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Is the Bible still being written today?

I sure hope so - In the very flesh of your heart and mine...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

In fact the verse they refer too here (Heb 1:2) refers to Christ's earthly ministry.
Christ is no longer bodily on earth.

The Body of Christ is abiding upon the earth...
The Church of the Living God...
Whose Head Christ is...

"And Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the Age..."

"Saul, Saul, Why are you persecuting ME?"

Only proto-martyr Stephen had Saul helped in killing...

Was not Saul just persecuting some believer, and not Christ Himself??

Yet these are the very words of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Added to this is the purpose for sign gifts.
Sign gifts related to an age when there are apostles on earth
who heard Christ during his earthly ministry.

Except for Paul, as you duly note...

So what do you then say to the Martyrs after John's passage from this earth?
What do you say to Justin Martyr? In the official record of his trial in Rome?:

Justin stated: “That the empire of spirits has been destroyed by Jesus you may even now convince yourselves by what is passing before your own eyes; for many of our people, of us Christians, have healed and still continue to heal in every part of the world, and even in your city (Rome) numbers possessed by evil spirits (are healed) such as could not be healed by other exorcists, simply by adjuring them in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate. There are prophetic gifts among us even until now. You may see with us both women and men having gifts from the Spirit of God.”

The Body of Christ has never discarded,
as you are telling us to do,
the Gifts of the Holy Spirit of God...

"Concerning Spiritual Gifts I would not have you ignorant, Brethren!"

Nor do we parade them about in puffed up buffoonery...

But when the blood hits the mud,
they often do become publicly visible...

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The other side throws verses up on the screen, but then does not defend their own interpretation of those verses. They jump up and down and cheer themselves and claim, "I quoted scripture" and then seem to care nothing for the fact that they quoted them out of context. If we reply and demonstrate that their quote is out of context, the argument made is ignored.

Yes! Generally speaking, there is no defense of their interpretation. They post a verse, cheer as you say. We challenge the interpretation of the verse by adding more context, for example, and there is no reply.

Debate that is productive must be go through several "rounds" of assertion, rebuttals, counters. . .

Scripture should be our rule, so we must work to interpret it properly in order to arrive at the truth. We must be students who handle it with respect and care.

 

[Arsenios]

The other side throws verses up on the screen, but then does not defend their own interpretation of those verses. They jump up and down and cheer themselves and claim, "I quoted scripture" and then seem to care nothing for the fact that they quoted them out of context. If we reply and demonstrate that their quote is out of context, the argument made is ignored.

Have you ever considered the possibility
Of the wonderful Christian concept...
However dimly formed and illumined...
Of Generosity of Spirit???

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If the question is "Is prayer a two way conversation with God" and one answer is "No, that stopped with the Apostles" then the counter argument would seem to be: "The early Christian post-Apostolic martyrs talked with God and here is their testimony..." would seem to be on topic...

Am I missing something obvious??

Arsenios

God's speaking in conversation or not is the question posed in the OP. Of course there are related issues, but the poster in question has taken the thread in the direction of so called signs and wonders, which is a different subject. I suggested that he begin a new thread of his own rather than derail this one, which would be the polite thing to do, but that was ignored.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I sure hope so - In the very flesh of your heart and mine...

Arsenios

That's not what I meant. I think you that.

 

[Arsenios]

Debate that is productive must be go through several "rounds" of assertion, rebuttals, counters. . .
Scripture should be our rule,
so we must work to interpret it properly in order to arrive at the truth.
We must be students
who handle it with respect and care.

Christ gave to David this prophesy of Himself:

"And I became as a man that heareth not,
And that hath in his mouth no reproof..."

Martyrs in their martyric witness need no words...
You do know that martyr means witness/testimony, yes?

Following Christ is not a matter of (sophmoric) proof and rebuttal...
This is the neo-scholastic trap of the children of Scholasticism...

Instead, following Christ is a matter of repentance and Grace...
The taking up of one's own cross...
In agony and joy unto death...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

That's not what I meant. I think you (know) that.

Of course, but how could I resist?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

God's speaking in conversation or not is the question posed in the OP. Of course there are related issues, but the poster in question has taken the thread in the direction of so called signs and wonders, which is a different subject. I suggested that he begin a new thread of his own rather than derail this one, which would be the polite thing to do, but that was ignored.

OK... It simply did not feel all that off topic to me...

What are you doing up so early? Or are you an east coast poster?

I am still trying to go to bed after 3AM Services...

Arsenios