.

[sunlover1]

Great passage.

thank you.

As much as those are some great texts, they do not address the OP. I know that my God speaks, but it's how and when He speaks that's in question.

Sure they address the OP.
It's quite clear that our God is not mute.
A lot of Scripture has been waved away.
God didn't give us a book to talk to,
He gave us a written record of our covenant
with Him and EXAMPLES for our instruction.

Now these things happened to them as an example,
and they were written for our instruction,
upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
​

Scripture was to lead us TO Him, teach us ABOUT Him...

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them
you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.…
​

God exalts His Name above all, and He exalts His Word above all of His Name!
And still, it gets even better, we have HIM, the Spirit of Truth!

​

 

[sunlover1]

God walked with man in the garden and then
man fell.. so He then sent Jesus (God with us),
to walk with man again! Now we have His Spirit
"with us" so He can again walk with us talk with us..
He's not trying to get us to Heaven, He's trying to
get us to invite HIm in right here! Where two or
three are gathered in my Name, I am right there
among them! He so desires to be "among" us! But
He walks among us in Spiritual form, and so His
voice is discerned spiritually, always by faith.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned.​

 

[Arsenios]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.​

That pretty much sums it all up...

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God walked with man in the garden and then
man fell.. so He then sent Jesus (God with us),
to walk with man again! Now we have His Spirit
"with us" so He can again walk with us talk with us..
He's not trying to get us to Heaven, He's trying to
get us to invite HIm in right here! Where two or
three are gathered in my Name, I am right there
among them! He so desires to be "among" us! But
He walks among us in Spiritual form, and so His
voice is discerned spiritually, always by faith.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned.​

"Natural man" is unregenerate man. To accuse a person who does not hear voices of being unregenerate is not only not true, it's in violation of CF rules: "Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed."

 

[Peter J Barban]

Its about satan transforming himself into an apostle of light. That's what people are concerned with I believe. Beware of false teachers is the goal. Somehow however, we have turned that into beware of the scriptures and embrace the teachers.

I agree that we should be concerned with false teachers. In fact, I have opposed a false teacher within my main church. I opposed him face to face, I opposed him to our leadership, and I warned my student that he was a false teacher. I paid a high price for my efforts and the false teacher remains, unfortunately.
This false one, denied that the Bible is God's word. Instead, he is one of the few scholars "professional" enough to determine which words of the Bible are true and which are false. In the end, the Jesus that he preaches does not come from the Bible, but from Social Justice Warriors, where no one will go to hell and the worst of sins become uninclusiveness.

Unfortunately, limiting God's communication to illumination of the scripture increases the power of these false teachers. There are no apostles, prophets, voice of God, inner feelings and such that can challenge error. Most Christians humbly defer to these knowledgeable and forceful leaders, not suspecting that they are wolves in sheep's clothing.

Such false leaders know how to use the Bible to silence the truth through deception, confusion and church politics.

In the desire to protect the sheep, those who reject the voice of God actually endanger the sheep.

 

[swordsman1]

Unfortunately, limiting God's communication to illumination of the scripture increases the power of these false teachers. There are no apostles, prophets, voice of God, inner feelings and such that can challenge error. Most Christians humbly defer to these knowledgeable and forceful leaders, not suspecting that they are wolves in sheep's clothing.

Such false leaders know how to use the Bible to silence the truth through deception, confusion and church politics.

In the desire to protect the sheep, those who reject the voice of God actually endanger the sheep.

Quite the reverse. Apart from the constant control of the scriptures, we are engulfed in a quagmire of subjectivity. And the false teachers are given free reign. They are the very ones claiming to have these personal revelations. People like Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn claim God speaks to them privately all the time, but the revelations and prophecies they quote are heretical and false. But because they say "The Lord told me..." people blindly believe them and thousands are led astray. They disguise themselves as angels of light by using pious words, frequently quoting the scriptures (often twisting them), and having fruitful and successful ministries, but inside they are ravenous wolves, not only deceiving the sheep with false teachings but heaping up for themselves great wealth from donations to their ministries. (Copeland lives in a huge mansion with his own airport next door and a fleet of private jets).

We do have apostles and prophets to challenge error. Their words are recorded for us in scripture, which is also described as the "voice" of God by God himself. Inner feelings are never taught as being the means God speaks to us. It is an unbiblical idea justified by nothing more than anecdotal stories and experiences.

1 Cor 4:6 "learn from us the meaning of the saying "Do not go beyond what is written."​

The "God told me" mysticism of today has caused untold damage to the body of Christ. Anyone can claim to be speaking God’s revelation and almost anything can be passed off as divinely revealed truth. It is wide open to abuse. Someone can say "The Lord has told me we need a new pastor", and nobody can dare argue against them. To do so would be to argue against the Lord. It is a recipe for chaos and confusion. But God is not the author of confusion.

We don't need new private revelations because we are told that scripture is sufficient for us to be "thoroughly equipped for every good work".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I could not even be aware of the gospel were it not for the Holy Spirit making that possible, yet there is nothing odd about it. It's not mystical. I don't need to work myself up into a frenzy. I just trust that He guides me. No drama or fanfare.

 

[Arsenios]

I could not even be aware of the gospel
were it not for the Holy Spirit making that possible,

Then you are confessing your own personal spiritual experience of the Holy Spirit,
in that it makes you aware of the Gospel, and I assume, the Truth thereof, yes?

yet there is nothing odd about it.

It is not like reading a math or science text...

It's not MYSTical.

You are claiming that it is the Holy Spirit Who makes your awareness of the Gospel possible...

THAT is a mystical claim...

Others read and hear its holy Words and twist them into venom...

they do not have what you have, yes?

So what you have is a MYSTery to them...

They would accuse YOU of Mysticism...

When I was an atheist, I accused people like you of mysticism...

I understood it as a suspension of thinking due to fear...

I don't need to work myself up into a frenzy.

Nor do those who converse with God...

IF you see frenzy, you are seeing demonic powers working in a person...

I just trust that He guides me.

I trust that He guides you as well...

Indeed He guides all insofar as they will permit Him to do so...

John the Baptist proclaimed:
"Repent and be Baptized...
For the Kingdom of the Heavens...
Is at hand (here and now)..."

To ALL He said:
"If ANYone is WILLING...
After Me to follow...
Let him first deny himself...
Then take up his own cross...
And follow Me...

To the Apostles He said:
"Go...
Disciple all the nations...
Teaching them to carefully obey...
ALL that I have commanded you to be doing...
Baptizing them..."

And Paul tells us:
"Obey them that have the rule over you...
As those that must render account for your soul..."

For the sake of ALL, Christ sent forth His Apostles, to disciple ALL who are willing to follow Christ in the suffering of their own crosses and in self denial, giving them careful obediences to the commands of Christ, in the Apostolic Churches of Christ's Holy Faith...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

"Natural man" is unregenerate man. To accuse a person who does not hear voices of being unregenerate is not only not true, it's in violation of CF rules: "Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed."

There are many who are reborn into Christ who do not have or have not had "spiritual experiences"...
Indeed, this might be understood as most...
Except for little children, who are so naturally spiritual...

I was a pretty hard-core atheist for my first 36 years, but after encountering God, I was able to trace back the inner [read 'Spiritual'] events of my life that kept me going until God intervened... I can tell you this - Conversing inwardly with God is T.H.E. most natural, most normal, most ordinary event we will ever have, and it initially turns these ideas we have about natural, normal and ordinary, upside down, inside out, and backwards... We are given a glimpse of what this world really IS... And normally, it is not eradicable, and it is life transforming...

Discipleship in the Church, the Body of Christ, is all about preparing us for that encounter with God that fundamentally transforms our person from this world to God... It is about purification of the heart, which is what repentance is all about, wherein God can work in us as He wills... For many, it does not happen in this lifetime... And for many it does...

That is just the way it is...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

"Natural man" is unregenerate man.

Tell me something, Brian -

Is regeneration a spiritual or a physical event?

If spiritual, how is it discerned?

If physical, then how so?

If both, then how both?

And if neither, what is it?

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Tell me something, Brian -

Is regeneration a spiritual or a physical event?

If spiritual, how is it discerned?

If physical, then how so?

If both, then how both?

And if neither, what is it?

Arsenios

My opinion means nothing. Here is the text from John 3:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”​

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You are claiming that it is the Holy Spirit Who makes your awareness of the Gospel possible...

THAT is a mystical claim...

God breathed life into Adam. It's a natural as can be to be filled with the Holy Spirit. We were originally made that way.

There are many who are reborn into Christ who do not have or have not had "spiritual experiences"

Nicodemus didn't understand this, and here is how Jesus straightened him out. Maybe it will help you:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritb gives birth to spirit.7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘Youc must be born again.’8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”d

 

[sunlover1]

"Natural man" is unregenerate man. To accuse a person who does not hear voices of being unregenerate is not only not true, it's in violation of CF rules: "Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed."

I didn't "accuse a person who does not hear voices" of anything.
But I do know that spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

 

[Don Maurer]

"Natural man" is unregenerate man. To accuse a person who does not hear voices of being unregenerate is not only not true, it's in violation of CF rules: "Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed."

Very much agreed and I recognized your comments as completely contextual. I know I am not adding anything, you already mentioned that the term "natural man" refers to the unregenerate (unbelievers, those going to hell). Nevertheless, I would like to add my own comment here.

That the natural man is one who rejects the gospel is completely obvious in the context. When Paul begins that section of scripture he speaks of the Gospel....
1st Corinthians 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
So then, when the text later in 1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man....
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
The things of the Spirit of God: in this context refers not to some voice of God, or some special revelation in current days, it refers to the gospel itself. It refers to "Jesus Christ, and him crucified." As the Spirit of God brings understanding of the gospel, he cannot do that with the natural man. The gospel will always be "foolishness unto him."

One the other hand in 1 Cor 2:12...
"But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God"
This is the contrast with those who cannot hear the Spirit when the gospel is preached. This refers to the saved who can hear the gospel. We can only hear the gospel because we have received the Spirit. One of the reasons I enjoy this passage so much is that it speaks of the nature of prevenient (preceding) grace. There is a grace which goes before the hearing of the gospel. There is a grace which enables the hearing of the Gospel. In this context this grace that precedes salvation is referred to in this way... "receiving ... the spirit which is from God;." This is in contrast to the natural man.

IN CONCLUSION
Thatbrian properly recognized the context when he used the word regeneration. This constant misuse of the bible by others seems to need constant correction. While the term regeneration does not occur in the context, that is exactly what the context is talking about. The regenerate in this context are those whom the Spirit of God chose by grace to change a mans nature so that he can hear and believe the gospel.There are two kinds of humanity in that context... those who receive the Spirit, and the natural man who does not. This context has nothing to do with "hearing the voice of God." Again, it is noticeable that one side just throws verses up on the screen that are used terribly out of context, the other side continually corrects the context. One side keeps quoting biblical passages where God speaks in times past (as if the other side does not believe that God spoke in times past). This of course does not prove the point that God is speaking today. The other side also fails to answer the question that if God is speaking today, as he spoke in times past, then why is not more scripture being added to the bible?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Very much agreed and I recognized your comments as completely contextual. I know I am not adding anything, you already mentioned that the term "natural man" refers to the unregenerate (unbelievers, those going to hell). Nevertheless, I would like to add my own comment here.

That the natural man is one who rejects the gospel is completely obvious in the context. When Paul begins that section of scripture he speaks of the Gospel....
1st Corinthians 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
So then, when the text later in 1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man....
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
The things of the Spirit of God: in this context refers not to some voice of God, or some special revelation in current days, it refers to the gospel itself. It refers to "Jesus Christ, and him crucified." As the Spirit of God brings understanding of the gospel, he cannot do that with the natural man. The gospel will always be "foolishness unto him."

One the other hand in 1 Cor 2:12...
"But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God"
This is the contrast with those who cannot hear the Spirit when the gospel is preached. This refers to the saved who can hear the gospel. We can only hear the gospel because we have received the Spirit. One of the reasons I enjoy this passage so much is that it speaks of the nature of prevenient (preceding) grace. There is a grace which goes before the hearing of the gospel. There is a grace which enables the hearing of the Gospel. In this context this grace that precedes salvation is referred to in this way... "receiving ... the spirit which is from God;." This is in contrast to the natural man.

IN CONCLUSION
Thatbrian properly recognized the context when he used the word regeneration. This constant misuse of the bible by others seems to need constant correction. While the term regeneration does not occur in the context, that is exactly what the context is talking about. The regenerate in this context are those whom the Spirit of God chose by grace to change a mans nature so that he can hear and believe the gospel.There are two kinds of humanity in that context... those who receive the Spirit, and the natural man who does not. This context has nothing to do with "hearing the voice of God." Again, it is noticeable that one side just throws verses up on the screen that are used terribly out of context, the other side continually corrects the context. One side keeps quoting biblical passages where God speaks in times past (as if the other side does not believe that God spoke in times past). This of course does not prove the point that God is speaking today. The other side also fails to answer the question that if God is speaking today, as he spoke in times past, then why is not more scripture being added to the bible?

Thanks for expanding and clarifying, Don.

Christians are reborn/regenerated, so we hear the gospel and know it as from God. We don't have to strain ourselves or have a special "anointing" to discern this. He made us His own through rebirth; therefore, we know His voice. The gospel, although infinitely wonderful and powerful, makes perfect sense to us, and that is proof that we are not "natural man".

I've come across some who intentionally turn plain truth into mystery. They muddy the waters, but the Holy Spirit does just the opposite. He makes very clear the mystery of God. He turns chaos into order. You will find that there are some people and gatherings which do just the opposite. They turn clear teaching into mystery, which leaves one to wonder who they are "working" for. There are false teachers out there, and many are among the signs & wonders groups.

An unmistakable sign that the Holy Spirit is present is the clear and concise teaching and exegesis of God's word. He is making order out of chaos, which He has been doing from the beginning of time.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

There is a grace which goes before the hearing of the gospel. There is a grace which enables the hearing of the Gospel. In this context this grace that precedes salvation is referred to in this way... "receiving ... the spirit which is from God;." This is in contrast to the natural man.

Yes, and amen. Simplifying what we are both saying, the evidence that you are in-dwelt with God's Spirit; therefore, not a "natural man", is that the gospel is not foolish to you. Awesome!

Much of CF is a waste of time, but when reasonable people, who carefully look to Biblical texts, and have rational discussion, there can be much value. It takes a lot of sifting through manure, though. . .

What you've uncovered in your post might also be of help to those who have little assurance of salvation.

 

[Arsenios]

So then, when the text later in 1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man....
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him;
and he cannot know them,
because they are spiritually judged.

The "things of the Spirit of God":
in this context ...
refers to the gospel itself.

It refers to "Jesus Christ, and him crucified." As the Spirit of God brings understanding of the gospel, he cannot do that with the natural man. The gospel will always be "foolishness unto him."

IF Paul had meant the Gospel, Paul would have SAID the Gospel,
as you are doing, you who are NOT Paul...
My Brother, you would do well to hear
what Paul himself TELLS YOU what
"Jesus Christ and Him Crucified" means...

You skipped over the text that does so,
destroying thereby the context,
so as to persuade us of your human wisdom.

Here is what the preaching of "Him Crucified" actually means,
according to Paul,
and not to you:

1Co 2:3-5
And I was with you in weakness,
and in fear,
and in much trembling.
And my speech...
in demonstration
of the Spirit
and of Power:
That your faith
should not stand in the wisdom of men,
but in the Power of God.

He clearly limited his speech to demonstrating the Spirit and Power...
He did so in order that he NOT persuade them IN PAUL'S OWN WISDOM OF PERSUASION...
But instead should establish them in the Power of God

Do you even know that he came NOT to DECLARE the testimony of God? 1 Cor 2:1
But only to KNOW Christ Crucified among them?

That this means to himself BE SUFFERING CRUCIFIXION among them?
In TREMBLING, WEAKNESS and FEAR?

That the Power of God is made manifest in suffering...
That taking up one's own cross in suffering is to follow Christ?

That outside of this the preaching of words is but vanity?
Even Paul's words of God's Testimony?

READ 1 cor 2:1-2 again:


1Co 2:1-2
And I, brethren, when I came to you,
came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom,
declaring unto you
the testimony of God.
For I determined not
to know any thing among you, save
Jesus Christ, and Him
crucified.

You may recall Christ's words in John:
"And this Eternal Life IS...
To BE KNOWING the One true God
And His Son, Jesus Christ.

One cannot be knowing without co-suffering with Him
Taking up one's own Cross...
And following Him...

In this is the Power and the Joy of God in us...

Arsenios

 

[sunlover1]

"Natural man" is unregenerate man. To accuse a person who does not hear voices of being unregenerate is not only not true, it's in violation of CF rules: "Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed."

Scofield's knowledge far surpasses mine, assuming you esteem his understanding above your own
but maybe you're smarter than the both of us. Anyhow, here's his comment. He calls the natural man
a "Christian".

Scofield Reference Notes

[2] natural man

Paul divides men into three classes: psuchikos, "of the senses" Jas 3:15 Jude 1:19 or "natural," i.e. the Adamic man, unrenewed through the new birth Jn 3:3,5 pneumatikos, "spiritual," i.e. the renewed man as Spirit-filled and walking in the Spirit in full communion with God Eph 5:18-20 and sarkikos, "carnal," "fleshly," i.e. the renewed man who, walking "after the flesh," remains a babe in Christ 1Cor 3:1-4. The natural man may be learned, gentle, eloquent, fascinating, but the spiritual content of Scripture is absolutely hidden from him; and the fleshly, or carnal, Christian is able to comprehend only its simplest truths, "milk" 1Cor 3:2.

 

[sunlover1]

I've come across some who intentionally turn plain truth into mystery.

God did this.
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not
see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.14"In their
case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON
HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT
WILL NOT PERCEIVE;…

They muddy the waters, but the Holy Spirit does just the opposite. He makes very clear the mystery of God. He turns chaos into order. You will find that there are some people and gatherings which do just the opposite. They turn clear teaching into mystery, which leaves one to wonder who they are "working" for. There are false teachers out there, and many are among the signs & wonders groups.

An unmistakable sign that the Holy Spirit is present is the clear and concise teaching and exegesis of God's word. He is making order out of chaos, which He has been doing from the beginning of time.

This is why I abhor the twisting of plain Scripture.
MOST of Scripture is simple enough that a child can 'get it'.
Men get confused when they try to make the Scriptures fit
their own paradigms and traditions of men, and then they
get angry when they can't , and then they attack those who
are anointed to heal/deliver etc...
Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand!" He stretched it out,
and it was restored to normal, like the other.14But the Pharisees went
out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.
Nothing new under the sun!

 

[Don Maurer]

Arsienios, that's quite a bit of bluster. It is painfully obvious that the context is speaking about the gospel. It begins in 1:18 "For the word of the cross"
1:18 and 2:14 are obviously connected with he word foolishness.
(1:18) "is to them that perish foolishness" (2:14) Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him
So the, in the two verses, the word of the cross is the same thing as receiving the things of the Spirit of God.

The passage you quote (1 Cor 2:1-5) does have a denial that Paul came and used concept of pagan greek philosophy. In that sense he did not use "words of wisdom" (see verse 4). He then concludes the section you quoted by talking about the power of God.

Of course the famous passage in Romans 1:16 talks about the same thing....
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel:for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek"
It is the gospel that is the "power of God." The power of God has nothing to do with some mystic sitting on a mountain thinking about Greek philosophy and thinking he is hearing the voice of God. The phrase in 1 Cor 2:5 and Romans 1:16 (the power of God) has everything to do with the Gospel.

Not only is your interpretation wrong, but it is not Gospel centered at all, and so misses completely what the power of God really is.