.

[sunlover1]

It's likely fruitless at this point, but the OP asked if prayer was a two-way conversation. In other words, you talk to God, and He talks back. That is the question.

According to the Bible, by way of comparison, our God DOES answer back, speak.

1 Corinthians 12:1-2 ESV
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols,
however you were led.

Habakkuk 2: 18, 19
“What profit is an idol
a teacher of lies?
speechless idols!
19 Woe to him twho says to a wooden thing, Awake;
there is no breath at all in it.

Psalm 115:5
They have mouths but do not speak
Eyes but do not see

Jeremiah 10:5
They lift it to their shoulders, they carry it,
it cannot move from its place.
If one cries to it, it does not answer
or save him from his trouble.​

 

[Arsenios]

Exactly. And not "By their fruit shall ye know WHETHER THEIR DOCTRINES ARE TRUE."

They go together within the Apostolic and historic Body of Christ...

The doctrines were given by the Apostles through the Churches they founded...

IF you find rotten fruit, you WILL find rotten doctrine somewhere...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It's likely fruitless at this point, but the OP asked if prayer was a two-way conversation. In other words, you talk to God, and He talks back. That is the question.

Well, it has been shown to have happened in both OT and NT Scripture...

Some here think God pinched off that bud with the last breath of the last of the 12 Apostles...

Since no additional Scripture was written AFTER the death of the last Apostle,
The Bible can only affirm what we find with God and Ananias re Saul...

But you are right - The OP quest is fruitlessly amok...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

According to the Bible, by way of comparison, our God DOES answer back, speak.

1 Corinthians 12:1-2 ESV
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols,
however you were led.

Habakkuk 2: 18, 19
“What profit is an idol
a teacher of lies?
speechless idols!
19 Woe to him who says to a wooden thing, Awake;
there is no breath at all in it.

Psalm 115:5
They have mouths but do not speak
Eyes but do not see

Jeremiah 10:5
They lift it to their shoulders, they carry it,
it cannot move from its place.
If one cries to it, it does not answer
or save him from his trouble.​

So are you REALLY saying that Paul's complaint about the IDOLS is that they DO NOT SPEAK???
That they are MUTE and SPEECHLESS and DO NOT ANSWER when we speak with them???
But that
OUR GOD DOES SPEAK???
OUR GOD is NOT MUTE???
OUR GOD ANSWERS WHEN WE CRY TO HIM???

Is THIS what you purport to be the BIBLICAL WITNESS???
In BOTH the OT and the NT???

Are there REALLY some script-only people who DISAGREE with the SCRIPTURA???

NNnnnnnaaaaaaaggggghhhhhh!!!
SAY IT ISN'T SO!



Arsenios

 

[sunlover1]

1 Corinthians 12:1-2 ESV
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols,
however you were led.

Habakkuk 2: 18, 19
“What profit is an idol
a teacher of lies?
speechless idols!
19 Woe to him who says to a wooden thing, Awake;
there is no breath at all in it.

Psalm 115:5
They have mouths but do not speak
Eyes but do not see

Jeremiah 10:5
They lift it to their shoulders, they carry it,
it cannot move from its place.
If one cries to it, it does not answer
or save him from his trouble.​

So are you REALLY saying that Paul's complaint about the IDOLS is that they DO NOT SPEAK???
That they are MUTE and SPEECHLESS and DO NOT ANSWER when we speak with them???
But that
OUR GOD DOES SPEAK???
OUR GOD is NOT MUTE???
OUR GOD ANSWERS WHEN WE CRY TO HIM???

Is THIS what you purport to be the BIBLICAL WITNESS???
In BOTH the OT and the NT???

Are there REALLY some script-only people who DISAGREE with the SCRIPTURA???

NNnnnnnaaaaaaaggggghhhhhh!!!
SAY IT ISN'T SO!



Arsenios

Don't get carried away now.
Often what it says isn't what it "really" means.
(you so bad!)

 

[Arsenios]

Don't get carried away now.
Often what it says isn't what it "really" means.
(you so bad!)

So wait just a gone dog minute!

That was the APOSTLE PAUL, yes?
And he was writing the New Testament to his flock in Corinth, right?
And he is reminding them of their old dead worship, verdad??
And he is telling them that the old gods are all MUTE IDOLS???
But NOT the Christian God???
The Christian God is NOT MUTE according to the Apostle Paul???
Paul himself actually SAID tHIS???
I mean, doesn't "NOT MUTE? mean that God SPEAKS to man???
How are our good friends here going to possibly answer this???
They are SS's but don't believe Paul???

How will they be able to go on??
We need to pray for these guys...
A terrible breach of conscience...
A correction not anticipated...
Nor possible without saying the dreaded words:

"I was wrong, forgive me..."

Will that happen?
OR...
Will it NOT??

They will not just tail-tuck and run will they???

They will MAN UP and take it, yes??

I sure hope so!

Tune in tomorrow to find out!!

Will or will not...
The S/S'ers here...
Be CORRECTED BY SCRIPTURE???

IF YES, then it will be
the first time in recorded history
since Adam blamed Eve for his transgression
that it has EVER occurred...

We COULD make history tomorrow...

Arsenios

 

[Peter J Barban]

Jesus didn't say "Look at my fruitful ministry to find out whether my teaching comes from God". He said "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God".



In Acts 15 The council at Jerusalem accepted the gentiles as they were because they received the Holy Spirit in the same way the disciples did at Pentecost. Not because of the success of Paul's ministry.



Strawman. Paul was not defending his doctrines. He was defending his position as a true apostle against the false apostles who had infiltrated the church. He therefore points to his qualifications as an apostle, not to his successful ministry.




Another strawman. John the Baptist wasn't out to determine if Jesus's doctrines were correct, but whether he was the Messiah.

A fruitful, successful ministry is no determinant of true doctrines. Mormons and JW's have successful ministries, recruiting many people to their folds, doing fine charitable deeds, and having impeccable personal conduct. Should we therefore believe their doctrines?



This is how the bible tells us to determine truth:

Acts 17:11 "Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so."

2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"

John 8:31 Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Isa 8:20 "Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn."

1 John 4:6 "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood."

Matthew 22:29 "But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

And how did Jesus defend against the onslaught of false doctrines from Satan in wilderness? "It is written....", "It is written....", "It is written...."

At some point in a forest of error, swordsman1 contributed something I agree with. That is, we can't normalize everything we see in scripture. This is true. On the other hand, we can't assume that the time of the 12 apostles was fundamentally different from today. As Arsenios mentions, we are still the NT church. We are of the same covenant, the spiritual economy as Peter, James and John.

When you quote John 8:31 "Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

You are actually making my point for me. Doctrine followed by Obedience leads to Results. These results, these fruits, confirm the truth of the teaching.

All I am asking you all to do is apply what Jesus said to those who claim that they hear from God.

The Bible clearly shows that we should test teachings/doctrines. I don't understand why this is considered dangerous or folly. Your belief system seems gnostic, completely separated from physical reality.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

1 Corinthians 12:1-2 ESV
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols,
however you were led.

Great passage.

Habakkuk 2: 18, 19
“What profit is an idol
a teacher of lies?
speechless idols!
19 Woe to him who says to a wooden thing, Awake;
there is no breath at all in it.

This is true.

Psalm 115:5
They have mouths but do not speak
Eyes but do not see

Yes.

So are you REALLY saying that Paul's complaint about the IDOLS is that they DO NOT SPEAK???
That they are MUTE and SPEECHLESS and DO NOT ANSWER when we speak with them???
But that
OUR GOD DOES SPEAK???
OUR GOD is NOT MUTE???
OUR GOD ANSWERS WHEN WE CRY TO HIM???

As much as those are some great texts, they do not address the OP. I know that my God speaks, but it's how and when He speaks that's in question.

 

[swordsman1]

When you quote John 8:31 "Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

You are actually making my point for me. Doctrine followed by Obedience leads to Results. These results, these fruits, confirm the truth of the teaching.

All I am asking you all to do is apply what Jesus said to those who claim that they hear from God.

No, here Jesus says that as a consequence of his teachings you will know the truth. His teaching, as recorded in scripture is the determinant of truth, not somebody's fruitful ministry. A principle echoed in all the other verses I quoted.

 

[Peter J Barban]

No, here Jesus says that as a consequence of his teachings you will know the truth. His teaching, as recorded in scripture is the determinant of truth, not somebody's fruitful ministry. A principle echoed in all the other verses I quoted.

I think you are mistaken. Holding to a teaching means more than asserting it is true. It requires following and obeying the teaching, which leads to results that others can judge.

You have put yourself in a bad position where belief comes without obedience or consequence. This is a powerless faith that cannot save the lost nor sanctify the saved.

 

[swordsman1]

I think you are mistaken. Holding to a teaching means more than asserting it is true. It requires following and obeying the teaching, which leads to results that others can judge.

You have put yourself in a bad position where belief comes without obedience or consequence. This is a powerless faith that cannot save the lost nor sanctify the saved.

That's not what the verse says. The verse says nothing about fruit or results. It says you will know the truth if you hold to his teaching. His teaching is the source of truth, not the fruit that comes from obeying it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

There are plenty of mega "churches" lead by WoF wolves who fly around in private jets, and live in lavish homes. From a human standpoint, I'm sure they look fruitful; however God has a different standard. We don't judge by outward appearance.

 

[Peter J Barban]

That's not what the verse says. The verse says nothing about fruit or results. It says you will know the truth if you hold to his teaching. His teaching is the source of truth, not the fruit that comes from obeying it.

What do you think "holding to the truth means?" At minimum, it must be conviction that leads to action which then leads to results (fruit).

You are sounding more and more gnostic in your vain effort to deny the obvious.

 

[swordsman1]

There are plenty of mega "churches" lead by WoF wolves who fly around in private jets, and live in lavish homes. From a human standpoint, I'm sure they look fruitful; however God has a different standard. We don't judge by outward appearance.

That's right. Nobody would deny Kenneth Copeland has a successful ministry. Yet much of his teaching is clearly false.

 

[Extraneous]

At some point in a forest of error, swordsman1 contributed something I agree with. That is, we can't normalize everything we see in scripture. This is true. On the other hand, we can't assume that the time of the 12 apostles was fundamentally different from today. As Arsenios mentions, we are still the NT church. We are of the same covenant, the spiritual economy as Peter, James and John.

When you quote John 8:31 "Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

You are actually making my point for me. Doctrine followed by Obedience leads to Results. These results, these fruits, confirm the truth of the teaching.

All I am asking you all to do is apply what Jesus said to those who claim that they hear from God.

The Bible clearly shows that we should test teachings/doctrines. I don't understand why this is considered dangerous or folly. Your belief system seems gnostic, completely separated from physical reality.

The bible shows that we test doctrine by searching scriptures. If you dont know the truth then only scripture can teach you, only hearing the Word can do that. Anyone can act like a whitewashed tomb, and anyone can clean the outside of the cup, anyone can put on sheep's clothing. IF you are looking for a person who is without anger then you are not seeing Pauls words when he wished the agitators of Galatians would castrate themselves. Or Christs words when He drove out those who defiled the temple. Its not about testing others but testing ourselves instead. Its also about searching scripture to prove truth, as the Bureans did, and as Paul exhorted timothy to keep. Its was the pharisees who were always testing Christ. They were always testing him. I would rather be like a Burean, or a Timothy, than a pharisee.

Galatians 5:25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

[Extraneous]

That's right. Nobody would deny Kenneth Copeland has a successful ministry. Yet much of his teaching is clearly false.

2 Timothy 4:2-3

 

[Arsenios]

I know that my God speaks,
but it's how (He speaks)
and
when He speaks
that's in question.

You almost made history as being the very first S/S'er to have ever changed his mind about his own interpretation of Scripture since God made man in His Image...

So HOW does God Speak?
So that man can hear!

When does God Speak?
When man will listen!

Jeremiah 10:5
If one cries to it, (the idol)
it does not answer
or save him from his trouble.

HENCE!!!:::

IF ONE CRIES TO GOD
GOD DOES ANSWER
AND SAVES ONE FROM ONE'S TROUBLE

This is classic TWO WAY converse...
Man cries to God...
God answers man...
God saves man...

Ananias shows that God can initiate the conversation...
And Man can question God, and God will explain the matter...

It started in the Garden, God and man in converse...
It continued through Noah...
And through the Prophets...
And through the Apostles...
And throughout the Body of Christ...
And it will go on until the end of creation...
Converse with God is more normal than breathing...

But even if you do not buy the rest...
At least you now confess that God speaks...
Even if you do not think...
That He speaks to us...
And that we can converse with Him...

So why and to whom in your view
Would God speak, if not to us?


Arsenios

 

[Peter J Barban]

I am surprised that some people claim that we cannot know another's fruit. Numerous times the New Testament has told us to judge the fruit. God will give us the power to do his will. And indeed he has. Through interaction, I find it very easy to judge the fruit of other in person, and somewhat easily over the internet.

Of course, if you have no fruit to show others, it would be very natural to deny the importance of these scriptures.

Thus, you can believe that the Bible says the lust of the flesh is evil, yet commit many lustful sins because, hey! fruit just doesn't matter. And when God touches your soul in conviction, you can quench the Spirit by insisting, "God doesn't talk, go away".

Somehow, you, the hypothetical person whom I am describing, have locked the Bible into a safe, controllable corner of your life, where you are the master who controls the word of God. There is no one above you, save the god you have created in your own image.

Those of you who do not believe God speaks except through the Bible, has the Holy Spirit ever convicted you, so that you repented of your evil and obeyed the truth?

 

[Extraneous]

I am surprised that some people claim that we cannot know another's fruit. Numerous times the New Testament has told us to judge the fruit. God will give us the power to do his will. And indeed he has. Through interaction, I find it very easy to judge the fruit of other in person, and somewhat easily over the internet.

Of course, if you have no fruit to show others, it would be very natural to deny the importance of these scriptures.

Thus, you can believe that the Bible says the lust of the flesh is evil, yet commit many lustful sins because, hey! fruit just doesn't matter. And when God touches your soul in conviction, you can quench the Spirit by insisting, "God doesn't talk, go away".

Somehow, you, the hypothetical person whom I am describing, have locked the Bible into a safe, controllable corner of your life, where you are the master who controls the word of God. There is no one above you, save the god you have created in your own image.

Those of you who do not believe God speaks except through the Bible, has the Holy Spirit ever convicted you, so that you repented of your evil and obeyed the truth?

Its about satan transforming himself into an apostle of light. That's what people are concerned with i believe. Beware of false teachers is the goal. Somehow however, we have turned that into beware of the scriptures and embrace the teachers.

 

[Arsenios]

Its about satan transforming himself into an apostle of light. That's what people are concerned with i believe. Beware of false teachers is the goal. Somehow however, we have turned that into beware of the scriptures and embrace the teachers.

That is why it is the Church that is the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth, because it is within the Church that we can find the discipling of the nations that God commanded, and the Scriptures are a part of this discipling... They were never intended as a substitute for God, and God is the Head of His Body, the Church, for which Paul suffered as an Apostle...

The teachings of the Apostolic Churches, and especially of all those within the Eastern Orthodox Church, are consistent and the same, and have been so for 2000 years... The praxis of discipleship of them all is virtually identical... The differences of the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox are so miniscule that we will probably come back into Communion with each other... The Problem with Papal Rome is far more serious... She believes in Papal authority as strongly as her illegitimate children believe in Biblical Authority... Christ, not the Pope nor the Bible, is the Author of this Faith - "And Lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the Age..." He is worshiped in Spirit and in Truth...

Arsenios