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fhansen

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The catholic churches false doctrines alone invalidates the catholic church.
Thank you for your personal opinion. From the Catholic perspective many Protestant doctrines are correct, some incorrect- with our relationship to the Church which Christ initially established more or less perfect accordingly.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Thank you for your personal opinion. From the Catholic perspective many Protestant doctrines are correct, some incorrect- with our relationship to the Church which Christ initially established more or less perfect accordingly.
It is not my opinion but rather a fact that the catholic church is teaching many false doctrines and pointing out the Protestant church is just as guilty on false doctrines isn't helping your argument.

To name just a few.....


Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Confession to a priest

1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator (CHRIST) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (CHRIST).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He (CHRIST) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of the transgressions, till the seed came, unto the which the promise was made: and it was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediator CHRIST).

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator (CHRIST) of one: but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator (CHRIST) between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the new Testament, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not: and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Forbiddung to eat meat and priest to marry

1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1 Tim 3 Entire chapter
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Church is not related to salvation

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Eucharist NOT the body of Christ

Christ said the bread was His body does that make bread His flesh.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Jesus said he was a vine does that make Him a plant.

John 15:5
I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


So if Christ said bread is His body then by that logic Christ is also a vine too?


Christ also said he was a Rock so is he a rock too?


1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


So then is Christ a plant

John 15 : 1 I am that true vine, and my Father is that husbandman.

John 15:5 I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


Is Christ a Door?

John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily I say unto you, I am that door of the sheep.

John 10:9 I am that door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in, and go out, and find pasture.


Is Christ an animal

John 1 : 29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold that Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Is Christ food?

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life.


Is Christ a light? The fact is yes because light existed before the sun moon an stars were created?

Gen 1 : 3 Then God said, Let there be light: And there was light.
4 And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the Light, Day, and the darkness he called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ Again God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.

Rev 22 : 5 And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the Sun: for the Lord God giveth them light, and they shall reign for evermore.

John 8 : 12, 9 : 5 I am the light of the world.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Could be interesting. I don't know enough of the mechanics of these fora to know how to branch off a new discussion from here, but if you can do that I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

What does the Catholic church do with those who ignore church doctrine? Are they considered by the church to be apostate?
 
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fhansen

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What does the Catholic church do with those who ignore church doctrine? Are they considered by the church to be apostate?
There are certain de fide teachings that are naturally considered essential. There are also practices that define one as a Catholic. These should both speak for themselves, at least to those sufficiently catechized. But the Church, considering the human conscience to be inviolable even as it may be misinformed or less than fully or properly informed, rarely exercises any kind of official discipline to keep her general membership towing the party lines. Only in extreme cases of, say, maverick rebel bishops or Catholic university professors teaching non-Catholic doctrine would the Church take action-not often or forceful or speedily enough in the opinion of some, even though that has been changing in recent years.
 
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fhansen

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It is not my opinion but rather a fact that the catholic church is teaching many false doctrines and pointing out the Protestant church is just as guilty on false doctrines isn't helping your argument.


To name just a few.....



Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Vain repetitions actually have more in common with the so-called “spontaneous prayers” of many people, babbling on and on the way I’ve observed it during my Pentecostal days, for example. Or with “wailing wall” kinds of praying. Praying unceasingly, in any case, is consistent with the faith/Jesus’s teachings.
Confession to a priest


1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator (CHRIST) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (CHRIST).


1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He (CHRIST) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]

For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,


Galatians 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of the transgressions, till the seed came, unto the which the promise was made: and it was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediator CHRIST).


Galatians 3:20

Now a Mediator is not a Mediator (CHRIST) of one: but God is one.


1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God, and one Mediator (CHRIST) between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,


Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the new Testament, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


1 John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not: and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.
Confession is called for in Scripture-and recognized as essential, in fact, by many Christians in order to maintain right relationship with God. The Catholic church and others, going by its age-old practice, provides a physical, formal-sacramental-means of accomplishing this. All sacraments similarly provide means to perform various spiritual necessities-not everyone down through the centuries has been literate, let alone biblically literate, or in possession of the capability of becoming theologically savvy. Therefore the Church’s theology is built into the sacraments.
Forbiddung to eat meat and priest to marry


1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


1 Tim 3 Entire chapter
Scripture doesn’t speak specifically against forbidding priests to marry. St Paul, OTOH, did recognize the value in Christians at least, remaining single, focusing their lives on pursuing holiness and serving God alone. The practice of priestly celibacy is a western church one, subject to change if thought to be non-beneficial. In the East only bishops must be celibate. The idea in any case is to be fully sold out to God, able to serve Him in ways that involvement with the world-chasing after its things and ways and values- so often precludes or makes difficult. And no one is ever forced into such vocations.
The Church is not related to salvation


1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
Of course the Church is involved in salvation. The church is where we hear of it, of Him. She’s been made up of those apostles and disciples from the beginning whose commission it is to spread the good news. And to correct and admonish as necessary.
Eucharist NOT the body of Christ


Christ said the bread was His body does that make bread His flesh.


Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.



Jesus said he was a vine does that make Him a plant.


John 15:5

I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.



So if Christ said bread is His body then by that logic Christ is also a vine too?



Christ also said he was a Rock so is he a rock too?



1 Corinthians 10:4

And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.



So then is Christ a plant


John 15 : 1 I am that true vine, and my Father is that husbandman.


John 15:5 I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.



Is Christ a Door?


John 10:7

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily I say unto you, I am that door of the sheep.


John 10:9 I am that door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in, and go out, and find pasture.



Is Christ an animal


John 1 : 29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold that Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.



Is Christ food?


John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life.



Is Christ a light? The fact is yes because light existed before the sun moon an stars were created?


Gen 1 : 3 Then God said, Let there be light: And there was light.

4 And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the Light, Day, and the darkness he called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 ¶ Again God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.


Rev 22 : 5 And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the Sun: for the Lord God giveth them light, and they shall reign for evermore.


John 8 : 12, 9 : 5 I am the light of the world.
Jesus spoke in many ways-as does the bible, the Word. Both literally and spiritually: allegorically, morally, and anagogically. Sometimes both at the same time, the literal and the spiritual often overlapping. Either way many Protestants as well would disagree with you on the Eucharist and the Real Presence. And the Church, east and west, has, since the beginning, experienced things very differently from your speculative and novel take on the matter.

Anyway, you're coming centuries late for dinner but thank you again for a myopic, personal, private, alternately literalistic and spiritual interpretation of some isolated scriptural passages.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Vain repetitions actually have more in common with the so-called “spontaneous prayers” of many people, babbling on and on the way I’ve observed it during my Pentecostal days, for example. Or with “wailing wall” kinds of praying. Praying unceasingly, in any case, is consistent with the faith/Jesus’s teachings..

You don't comprehend what repetitious prayer is e.g. repeating your pagan roserey such as the Hail Mary, Our Father.

Confession is called for in Scripture-and recognized as essential, in fact, by many Christians in order to maintain right relationship with God. The Catholic church and others, going by its age-old practice, provides a physical, formal-sacramental-means of accomplishing this. All sacraments similarly provide means to perform various spiritual necessities-not everyone down through the centuries has been literate, let alone biblically literate, or in possession of the capability of becoming theologically savvy. Therefore the Church’s theology is built into the sacraments.

Sacraments are and extra-biblical invention of the catholic church as I pointed out with scripture.

Scripture doesn’t speak specifically against forbidding priests to marry. St Paul, OTOH, did recognize the value in Christians at least, remaining single, focusing their lives on pursuing holiness and serving God alone. The practice of priestly celibacy is a western church one, subject to change if thought to be non-beneficial. In the East only bishops must be celibate. The idea in any case is to be fully sold out to God, able to serve Him in ways that involvement with the world-chasing after its things and ways and values- so often precludes or makes difficult. And no one is ever forced into such vocations.

Actually Catholicism does forbid priest to marry because none are in fact married and therefore are in direct disobedience of the bible 1 Tim 3

Of course
the Church is involved in salvation. The church is where we hear of it, of Him. She’s been made up of those apostles and disciples from the beginning whose commission it is to spread the good news. And to correct and admonish as necessary.

Incorrect we hear the plan of salvation through God's word and the church was never a necessary part of salvation.

Ephesians 2:7-91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
7 That he might show in the ages to come the exceeding riches of his grace through his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast himself.
 
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fhansen

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You don't comprehend what repetitious prayer is e.g. repeating your pagan roserey such as the Hail Mary, Our Father.
Nah, just your uninformed opinion. And the Our Father was given us directly by Our Lord.
Sacraments are and extra-biblical invention of the catholic church as I pointed out with scripture.
No, sacraments aka mysteries have been part of the Christian church-God's church- in some manner or another since the beginning. Just historical fact.
Actually Catholicism does forbid priest to marry because none are in fact married and therefore are in direct disobedience of the bible 1 Tim 3
No, being unmarried is quite acceptable. They're not forbid anything-because they enter only by their own will. This is the meaning of Matt 19:12 BTW:
"For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
Incorrect we hear the plan of salvation through God's word and the church was never a necessary part of salvation.
The church was a necessary part of God's word to begin with, her members proclaiming His Word before the NT was written, producing the NT by His inspiration, and later assembling the canon.
Ephesians 2:7-91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
7 That he might show in the ages to come the exceeding riches of his grace through his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast himself.
Amen. And yet He'll never force anyone to be saved.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Vain repetitions actually have more in common with the so-called “spontaneous prayers” of many people, babbling on and on the way I’ve observed it during my Pentecostal days, for example.

Isn't that the truth! "Lord, I just want to thank you Lord, for just blessing us, Lord, and Lord, please just bless us some more, Lord"
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Nah, just your uninformed opinion. And the Our Father was given us directly by Our Lord.

No, sacraments aka mysteries have been part of the Christian church-God's church- in some manner or another since the beginning. Just historical fact.
Again I ask you where this doctrine of "sacraments" is found in the bible? And no, no biblicaly based Christian church practices the false doctrine of "sacraments".

No, being unmarried is quite acceptable. They're not forbid anything-because they enter only by their own will. This is the meaning of Matt 19:12 BTW:
"For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
I believe once again you're in error and "eunuchs" have nothing to do with catholic priests being unmarried.

The church was a necessary part of God's word to begin with, her members proclaiming His Word before the NT was written, producing the NT by His inspiration, and later assembling the canon.

Amen. And yet He'll never force anyone to be saved.

There is no where in the bible you can show me the church is in any way needed to be saved. The bible in fact says just the opposite because we are commanded to preach the gospel. I agree that some are saved in the church but that is just a place where the Holy Spirit convicted those people.

Matt 28:
19 Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the holy Ghost,
20 Teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, until the end of the world, Amen.

Was this a command to the church or to the people?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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BornAgainChristian1

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Really?! I had better tell my pastor that we aren't biblically-based.
You should indeed tell him that because no on has yet pointed out where the doctrine of "sacraments" are found in the bible? What purpose does your "sacraments" serve?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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You should indeed tell him that because no on has yet pointed out where the doctrine of "sacraments" are found in the bible? What purpose does your "sacraments" serve?

Baptism and the Lord's Supper are sacraments, and I know that an Anabaptist will loose his mind over such things, but it is what it is.

Baptism is a grace, not a profession or work. It's done *to* you, not *by* you.

The Lords Supper is also a gift, is it not? It conveys His grace to the partaker.

Ecclesiastical. a visible sign of an inward grace, especially one of the solemn Christian rites considered to have been instituted by Jesus Christ to symbolize or confer grace: the sacraments of the Protestant churches are baptism and the Lord's Supper;
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Baptism and the Lord's Supper are sacraments, and I know that an Anabaptist will loose his mind over such things, but it is what it is.

Baptism is a grace, not a profession or work. It's done *to* you, not *by* you.

The Lords Supper is also a gift, is it not? It conveys His grace to the partaker.

Ecclesiastical. a visible sign of an inward grace, especially one of the solemn Christian rites considered to have been instituted by Jesus Christ to symbolize or confer grace: the sacraments of the Protestant churches are baptism and the Lord's Supper;
Then it shouldn't be to difficult for you to present scripture where these things are referred to as "sacraments". Also please point where in scripture Baptism is "grace".
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Then it shouldn't be to difficult for you to present scripture where these things are referred to as "sacraments". Also please point where in scripture Baptism is "grace".

Based on how nasty you have been to my Catholic brother, I wouldn't waste my "breath".
 
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Based on how nasty you "spoke" to my Catholic brother, I wouldn't waste my "breath".
So then neither of you can deal with the truth of the bible? Matt 23. Just so you know I was born and raised a catholic until I read and studied the bible.
 
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So then neither of you can deal with the truth of the bible? Matt 23. Just so you know I was born and raised a catholic until I read and studied the bible.

Maybe we know that there isn't a decent chance at a reasonable exchange, so it would be be futile to try.

Catholic? So was I.
 
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So then neither of you can deal with the truth of the bible? Matt 23. Just so you know I was born and raised a catholic until I read and studied the bible.
Just so you know I was born Catholic, left the church early on, read and studied the bible and became a very conservative evangelical-quite anti-Catholic- but never stopped reading and studying and praying and seeking, and, much to my own surprise, returned to the CC some 25 years later.
 
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Baptism and the Lord's Supper are sacraments, and I know that an Anabaptist will loose his mind over such things, but it is what it is.

Who lost their mind over this?
 
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Maybe we know that there isn't a decent chance at a reasonable exchange, so it would be be futile to try.

Catholic? So was I.
Who said there couldn't be a reasonable exchange? Certainly not me.
 
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Just so you know I was born Catholic, left the church early on, read and studied the bible and became a very conservative evangelical-quite anti-Catholic- but never stopped reading and studying and praying and seeking, and, much to my own surprise, returned to the CC some 25 years later.
Knowing that the CC doesn't stand on sola scriptura I can't say I'll ever return knowing their past and present atrocity's.
 
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