.

[keltoi]

-Some historical and theological errors in the work have been noted. Among the historical problems noted is that Tobit 1:15 incorrectly notes that Sennacherib was Shalmaneser's son (rather than the son of Sargon II). Also, Tobit implied he was alive during the reign of Jeroboam I (930 BC), but at his death he was noted as 117 years old.

infallible word of god just fell of the throne OR its not inspired word of god ..-it is not inspired word of god .


- One teaching of concern is certainly the apparent condoning of magic in connection with the use of fish body parts to heal or fight off demons.( such activity also know as witchcraft ) Both a demon named Asmodeus and an angel named Raphael are also mentioned in this writing that are found nowhere in the Old or New Testament. This does not make the account inaccurate, yet is unique information not collaborated in the rest of Scripture.like so many rcc doctrines it had NO foundation in the inspired scriptures .

- More concern is the teaching that almsgiving alone would save a person. according to the Book of Tobit (4:11; 12:9), a clear contradiction with the New Testament's teaching of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).

That wasn't to hard was it?

but I strongly suspect you knew this information .

What I know is neither here nor there but others do not know any better and it is up to all Christians to teach the truth. You point black avoidance of doing this is problematic How can new Christians learn if they are not shown the truth by those who are knowledgeable?

Now the predictable long winded posts ,citing long dead no bodies ,as if their word is authoritative over the word of God will ensue to push the topic into confusing ambiguity and beguile the weaker minded .
this predictable action is so tedious and insidious in its nature that it is why i could not really be bothered posting information most already know . because if a truth is something you do not like ..you will deny that truth and superimpose your own version of it .
but since i use the inspired holy scriptures as a basis for truth and do not accept teachings that contradict the holy Scriptures you will never convince me otherwise on this or any issue where the material being discussed is contrary to what is plainly stated in the holy Scriptures .

for this one reason .. such false teachings force me into a choice to beleive the long winded ambiguous guff out of rome .. Or to beleive the plain word of god as it stands written in front of me . i will ALWAYS choose the unambiguous word of God .

others ../ prefer to beleive a lie .. they actually choose to ., incomprehensible behaviour ..but there you have it .

You do know what netiquette is don't you? http://learning.colostate.edu/guides/guide.cfm?guideid=4 http://www.hubspot.com/sales/email-etiquette-tips

 

[Alithis]

That wasn't to hard was it?

What I know is neither here nor there but others do not know any better and it is up to all Christians to teach the truth. You point black avoidance of doing this is problematic How can new Christians learn if they are not shown the truth by those who are knowledgeable?
You do know what netiquette is don't you? http://learning.colostate.edu/guides/guide.cfm?guideid=4 http://www.hubspot.com/sales/email-etiquette-tips

if new christians wish to learn .. then I advise they dont come here. however this is a side topic a sub topic within the topic ..some one asked in regard to tolbit and it was to that singular post i replied .though in that reply i also stated the "basis ' of my theology.

 

[keltoi]

if new christians wish to learn .. then I advise they dont come here.

That's not very nice, you are here so why shouldn't new Christians come here.

 

[Alithis]

That's not very nice, you are here so why shouldn't new Christians come here.

have you observed the content on CF lol .. i would never advise a new believer to come here

 

[keltoi]

have you observed the content on CF lol .. i would never advise a new believer to come here

Yes I have and unless people argue against some of the unbiblical beliefs that are posted here others will never learn the truth.

 

[Alithis]

Yes I have and unless people argue against some of the unbiblical beliefs that are posted here others will never learn the truth.

that would depend which argument they took a preference to.

 

[Goodbook]

If you have the patience you can explain why someone is wrong although they might not listen.
New believers in all probability would not have even read Tobit because its not actually in the Bible its only in catholic bibles. And thus you would have to have been brought up catholic to read it or been exposed to it.

But it does contradict scripture in places and can be shown to..its just i dont have a copy to cut and paste to show you all the instances. I dont ever go reading Tobit when Im opening my bible because its not even in it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In the past two months since I started this thread, the concerns I listed in the OP have increased twofold. I've been shocked by the content of so many posts that I've lost count.

It seems that people have been told to have a direct dialog with God to get minute by minute pep talks and instruction through books like Jesus Calling, and what's escaped many is that this has caused less focus and trust in scripture. Language like "a fresh word" imply that God's written word is old and stale - irrelevant. Experiences and direct revelations trump scripture in this new Christianity, which is hardly identifiable as "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints."

"Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3)
​

If I guess the trajectory of this movement, it doesn't end in a good place.

 

[Hawkiz]

oh good grief ,that's just silly .i would only be posting what is public domain knowledge .. over 1600 years its been debated with the same conclusion .

it contains historical error and doctrines which are opposed to scripture .look it up. there is no point posting information that is there for any one to find .

So is 'historical error' to be our true guide?
Should we throw out Genesis then? This book contradicts itself: in the order of creation (man 1st? Or animals?, Gen. 1:25-26; Gen.2:18-19) In where the birds came from: water, in Gen. 1:20-21 or from the ground as in Gen. 2:19? What about the order of the days of creation? This book gives two differing accounts...

What about how Psalms and Isaiah 'oppose' each other?
Psalm 92:12, 'The righteous shall flourish...'
Isaiah 57:1, 'The righteous shall perish...'

What were Jesus' last words? Which gospel gives us 'historical facts'?
Matthew 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

And which is these contradictory doctrines of Jesus should we follow?
Matthew 5:16: 'In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in Heaven.'
Or
Matthew 6:3-4: 'But when you give to the needy, do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing, so that your giving may be done in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.' Should our following of Christ be done publicly or privately? The same book of Scripture gives two contradictory answers...

And which of these is historically accurate?

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Was Lot Abraham's brother? (Gen. 14:14) or was Lot actually Abraham's nephew (Gen. 11:26-28)?
What of Jacob? Was he Laban's brother? Or was he his nephew? (Gen. 29:15)

Historical accuracy and contradictions are poor determining factors when looking at what should or shouldn't be the canon of Scripture...

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[BobRyan]

So is 'historical error' to be our true guide?
Should we throw out Genesis then? This book contradicts itself: in the order of creation (man 1st? Or animals?, Gen. 1:25-26; Gen.2:18-19) In where the birds came from: water, in Gen. 1:20-21 or from the ground as in Gen. 2:19? What about the order of the days of creation? This book gives two differing accounts...

Atheists often make the claim that the Bible is wrong.. we hear that all day long.

But what is the proof of it?

Our response is seldom "sure the Bible is horribly wrong but we like to keep it on the top shelf in our christiant-club just for show"??

Rather - as we see in the Protestant Reformation and those willing to be burned alive rather then not read the Bible in their own language - Christians have a great deal of trust in the accuracy of the Bible.

Notice what Christ said about it in Mark 7:6-13 "God's Word" - "Commandment of God" -- "Moses said"

 

[BobRyan]

back up which part .? that Tolbit is a fanciful story nook with historical errors and false doctrine contrary to the scriptures ?
I dont have to back it up. its openly recorded info .public domain .
if you dont believe it there, it is because you dont want to .

me reposting it here wont change your mind .

That is true and what is more - Josephus clearly states that the Hebrew Canon was fixed in stone 400 years before Christ - kept in the Jewish Temple and no other books added.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Good conversation. Point being, don't trust forums to learn the truth. It's like walking around quicksand, not even realizing where it is right next to you.
For new believers, there is not enough good teaching, and it's not a teaching forum anyway, to try to learn on the internet broadly nor on forums open to everyone to post.
Widely differing opinions are posted every day,
with most posts obviously not in line with , and not trying to be, Scripture.
But newbies might not realize this - a lot of oldies don't realize this, it seems.

What I know is neither here nor there but others do not know any better and it is up to all Christians to teach the truth. You point black avoidance of doing this is problematic How can new Christians learn if they are not shown the truth by those who are knowledgeable?

if new christians wish to learn .. then I advise they dont come here. however this is a side topic a sub topic within the topic ..some one asked in regard to tolbit and it was to that singular post i replied .though in that reply i also stated the "basis ' of my theology.

That's not very nice, you are here so why shouldn't new Christians come here.

have you observed the content on CF lol .. i would never advise a new believer to come here

Yes I have and unless people argue against some of the unbiblical beliefs that are posted here others will never learn the truth.

There's not enough time and resources here to reply to all the unbiblical beliefs posted on the internet. A lot slips through without comment, or even 'encouraged',
so no, it is not a good place for new believers unless they have with them someone pointing out these things. (with Scripture as the only Standard and guide)

that would depend which argument they took a preference to.

Maybe.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is true and what is more - Josephus clearly states that the Hebrew Canon was fixed in stone 400 years before Christ - kept in the Jewish Temple and no other books added.

Yes,
and remember recently, the finding of Jews in Ethiopa I think = they have been isolated for 2000 years and thought most of that time that
they were the only Jews left on earth (they said in the interviews published).

JOYOUSLY !!!! They took the same Scripture Jesus and the disciples had (Torah)
that these isolated Jews had had for 2000 years
to Jerusalem to compare with the Torah kept there,
and
not even 10 isolated letters or characters were changed throughout !

It is identical to 2000 plus years ago !

 

[Hawkiz]

Atheists often make the claim that the Bible is wrong.. we hear that all day long.

But what is the proof of it?

Our response is seldom "sure the Bible is horribly wrong but we like to keep it on the top shelf in our christiant-club just for show"??

Rather - as we see in the Protestant Reformation and those willing to be burned alive rather then not read the Bible in their own language - Christians have a great deal of trust in the accuracy of the Bible.

Notice what Christ said about it in Mark 7:6-13 "God's Word" - "Commandment of God" -- "Moses said"

Of course Scripture isn't just for show...
The point of my post was that disqualifying a book for reasons such as 'it isn't historically accurate', or 'THAT part isn't to be taken literally', or even 'it's contradictory to itself' is a poor way to determine what should be considered Scripture and what shouldn't...which is the only 'answer' that has been put forth with regard to the question at hand: why or why not should Tobit be considered/not considered as Scripture?

We can give Alithis more time to answer the questions

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Simply, sort of yes jumping in where angels wouldn't? perhaps?
Why
isn't the declaration of independence considered Scripture?
Same reason Tobit isn't.

Never even ever thought it should be, nor even ever considered it at all to be.

There's just nothing God has done to even think of Tobit , or the declaration of independence, as Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course Scripture isn't just for show...
The point of my post was that disqualifying a book for reasons such as 'it isn't historically accurate', or 'THAT part isn't to be taken literally', or even 'it's contradictory to itself' is a poor way to determine what should be considered Scripture and what shouldn't...which is the only 'answer' that has been put forth with regard to the question at hand: why or why not should Tobit be considered/not considered as Scripture?

The OT was canonized 400 years before Christ according to Jewish historians such as Josephus. Even Jerome admits to this fact that the Apocryphal books are not canon.

The NT 27 books - are not in dispute between EO/RCC/Protestants.

 

[Hawkiz]

Simply, sort of yes jumping in where angels wouldn't? perhaps?
Why
isn't the declaration of independence considered Scripture?
Same reason Tobit isn't.

Never even ever thought it should be, nor even ever considered it at all to be.

There's just nothing God has done to even think of Tobit , or the declaration of independence, as Scripture.

Except for Tobit being included in the original canon (confirmed at the councils of Hippo, Carthage and Florence), and except for the full acceptance of Tobit by both Eastern-Orthodox and the RCC?

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[tz620q]

Never even ever thought it should be, nor even ever considered it at all to be.

I have no doubt that you have never thought of Tobit as Scripture; but is that really a good argument for anything?

There's just nothing God has done to even think of Tobit , or the declaration of independence, as Scripture.

I would not presume to speak for God; but I do know that Jesus did give this right to some in Luke 10:16
Then he said to the disciples, "Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me. And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me."

So now all we need to do is try to find what these disciples taught and what Scriptures they accepted. Sound like a plan?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So now all we need to do is try to find what these disciples taught and what Scriptures they accepted. Sound like a plan?

No.
It has been known much longer than I or you have been alive.

It is certain, absolute, and will not ever be changed.

Perhaps finding out why men sinned might help,
- what caused men to deviate from God , ever, throughout history and today and until Jesus returns,
and as needed repenting of previously accepting false teachings of or about God ,
if these leads to or results in understanding His Will and His Purpose in Jesus and His Written Word.

 

[BobRyan]

Except for Tobit being included in the original canon (confirmed at the councils of Hippo, Carthage and Florence),

False.

"All of scripture" as in the OT - was already defined long before Hippo -- in Luke 24:27 it was already known.

Just as Josephus points out - it was locked-down and canon for Jews of Christ's day 400 years before Christ.