.

[jimmyjimmy]

the Bible really doesn't understand salvation apart from the visible church

Agreed. There is no such creature as a churchless Christian in the pages of scripture. Our salvation is wrapped up in being brought into the church. In fact, Wright and others would say that's the point, and that salvation should be understood, at least in part, as a corporate thing. (*I don't agree with N.T. Wright in all points, but he does have some great insights)

But I will admit that it is at least logically possible for a person to be truly saved and not be a member of a church.

Yes, and I think everyone agrees on this point. It is possible, but not desirable or normative.

Though if a person persists in defiance and refuses to submit themselves to a local, visible church then that person is living in sin and needs to repent.

Amen!

 

[Tree of Life]

I could say that anyone who knows their own soul knows how much it is scattered and that integrity of the soul is only something that will happen to those who are gathered together in Christ and thus the soul is a tabernacle, for the Lord desires to dwell in the hearts of man and does not require that men build for him temples made by the hands of men.

This is true. The church community is the temple of God, indwelt by the Spirit, and built by Jesus Christ. It's a community of people, not a brick-and-mortar building.

there is only unity through Christ, to gather yourselves and call yourself a church is a false unity. that would naturally happen with those souls who are similar in spirit and as the Holy Spirit guides each of us. there is no church if there are no stones.

This-a-bunch-a-malarky. To covenant with one another is not natural to the flesh. We need the help of the Spirit to stay unified with one another. But it is altogether biblical to make concrete commitments to one another in church membership. Would you say that a formal, legal marriage is likewise unspiritual and people oughta just let the Holy Spirit guide them hither and thither into relationships that have no formal definition?

 

[Noxot]

This-a-bunch-a-malarky. To covenant with one another is not natural to the flesh. We need the help of the Spirit to stay unified with one another. But it is altogether biblical to make concrete commitments to one another in church membership. Would you say that a formal, legal marriage is likewise unspiritual and people oughta just let the Holy Spirit guide them hither and thither into relationships that have no formal definition?

the natural biology system of the flesh is used to existing in packs of humans. it is against nature for humans to be apart* from other humans. I think that people who have hardened hearts need formalities and guarantees and laws. a formal definition is something that PEOPLE do. NOTHING ought to be done in the spirit of bureaucracy for that is dehumanizing.

 

[Tree of Life]

the natural biology system of the flesh is used to existing in packs of humans. it is against nature for humans to be alone from other humans. I think that people who have hardened hearts need formalities and guarantees and laws. a formal definition is something that PEOPLE do. NOTHING ought to be done in the spirit of bureaucracy for that is dehumanizing.

It does not sound to me like you are very familiar with the God of Abraham.

 

[Noxot]

It does not sound to me like you are very familiar with the God of Abraham.

I know the God of Noxot though and Jacob knew the God of Jacob and ect.

 

[sunlover1]

Um... Lexically speaking the "forsake not" in Hebrews 10 is a command. Where do you get the notion that you can soften it to an "encouragement". Do you read other commands of Scripture with a similar hermeneutic?

What exactly did He mean , @Tree of Life , when He said to 'forsake not" assembling.
DId He mean once a year? Once a Month? Once a week?
Twice a week? Daily?
Please explain exactly what He meant.
Thanks

 

[Tree of Life]

What exactly did He mean , @Tree of Life , when He said to 'forsake not" assembling.
DId He mean once a year? Once a Month? Once a week?
Twice a week? Daily?
Please explain exactly what He meant.
Thanks

It would seem that the author of Hebrews meant "regularly". Earlier in the epistle he talks about the importance of encouraging one another "daily". But since the church already had a long history (a few thousand years) of assembling together on the Sabbath day I think it's safe to assume that he meant "weekly" and "on the Sabbath day".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Looks like they met weekly, as we still do today.

They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

If it was good enough for Jesus. . .

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. (Luke 4:16)

Then they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and taught.

And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue.

Now it happened on another Sabbath, also, that He entered the synagogue and taught.

Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
​

And the disciples. . .

But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. (Acts 13:14)

Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.... (Acts 17:1-2)

So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. (Acts 13:42-44)



They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.​

 

[sunlover1]

It would seem that the author of Hebrews meant "regularly". Earlier in the epistle he talks about the importance of encouraging one another "daily". But since the church already had a long history (a few thousand years) of assembling together on the Sabbath day I think it's safe to assume that he meant "weekly" and "on the Sabbath day".

If he said to encourage one another "daily" then "it would seem" to me that He meant "daily"
They certainly didn't have internet then

But the short answer is, you're not really sure.
Me either

 

[Tree of Life]

If he said to encourage one another "daily" then "it would seem" to me that He meant "daily"
They certainly didn't have internet then

He said daily back in chapter 3. That doesn't necessarily have a bearing on chapter 10.

But the short answer is, you're not really sure.
Me either

Based on this verse alone I'm not sure. But based on the whole of Scripture I'm sure that God has commanded his people to assemble for worship on the Sabbath day.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

They met for worship weekly, but they also were very involved in each other's lives on a daily basis: "And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,"

Breaking bread is intimate.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

The scriptures say "not to forsake the assembling together"; so that sums it up for me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The scriptures say "not to forsake the assembling together"; so that sums it up for me.

How narrow-minded, simplistic, and unsophisticated to simply read scripture, believe it and act upon it! (yes, that was sarcasm and humor)

 

[sunlover1]

He said daily back in chapter 3. That doesn't necessarily have a bearing on chapter 10.

Daily sometimes but not always?
not entirely sure what you're saying.

Based on this verse alone I'm not sure. But based on the whole of Scripture I'm sure that God has commanded his people to assemble for worship on the Sabbath day.

Jesus is the Sabbath, so there is no more "day" set aside, is there?

 

[sunlover1]

How narrow-minded, simplistic, and unsophisticated to simply read scripture, believe it and act upon it! (yes, that was sarcasm and humor)

Not humorous at all.
It does not say "Go to church every sunday"
Or go to church every week, or blah blah blah, that you
try to push on folks.
I notice you like to ask me questions but shun my answers.
I notice you don't answer anything I ask you.
I also notice your threads all aim towards division.
Maybe it's you who's standing in the need of some correction.
IJS

 

[St_Worm2]

Calvin held a high view of the visible church. Here (in small part) is what he had to say:

As it is now our purpose to discourse of the visible Church, let us learn, from her single title of Mother, how useful, nay, how necessary the knowledge of her is, since there is no other means of entering into life unless she conceive us in the womb and give us birth, unless she nourish us at her breasts, and, in short, keep us under her charge and government, until, divested of mortal flesh, we become like the angels, (Matthew 22:30.) For our weakness does not permit us to leave the school until we have spent our whole lives as scholars. Moreover, beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for, as Isaiah and Joel testify, (Isaiah 37:32; Joel 2:32) Calvin, J., & Beveridge, H. (1845). Institutes of the Christian Religion 4/1/4
​

Yours and His,
David

 

[Wandering Cat Lady]

I know many Christians who don't attend a church and they're still what I consider to be true followers of Christ. I feel that they would be hugely blessed and would grow more as well as have more support and empowerment through the body of Christ if they had a church family. I'm a very solid church goer and it wasn't until the last few years that I allowed myself to skip a week once in a while for vacation or whatever. It's hard for me to wrap my head around someone NOT going to church, but I know the church has hurt a lot of people and that there are so many bad ones out there.

I believe if we look in the Scriptures and if we were to ask Jesus, the answer would be "No, it's not optional" because there are many times where you see the teaching in public places, gatherings of believers...just think, if no church, there would be no Acts 2, no feeding of 5,000, no baptism at river, no healings. So personally, I would say it's not an option for me, that it is something that is an integral part of my walk with Christ, and even more than that, it is a privilege that many wish they could have. But for those who have been severely hurt by the church or who are unsure about attending, I am trying to be more compassionate and understanding. I don't see them as less of a Christian for that. I do feel that they are missing out, and they don't even know it. I also believe it is very important for children to be in church and to have friends in the faith, both of their own age and in peers. I just feel like there's so much that a good church offers and a lot of it has to do with relationship with other people, something we were born to need.

Then of course you have that famous Hebrews 10:25 verse that speaks about NOT forsaking the assembling together. Some people feel that assembling together could even be a group online, and I have to say that I have had some really great experiences in groups online, maybe even more than I have had in groups in person. On the other hand, we were created to be connected - as a family - and not to be separated by screens, distance, or even illness. The point being, if you're ill, the body of Christ has an obligation to visit you, to bring comfort to you, even to lay hands on and pray for you. I know there are so many bad churches out there. And that is why so many people are afraid of going to church. But there are so many good ones out there too. You just have to look. It's worth it. I don't think it is a heaven or hell thing but I do feel that it is an integral part of the walk with Christ...that bonding with other believers - in person - is very important.

Benefits to church:

• Truth based teaching that can jump start your week
• Having communion - something that we are commanded to do regularly
• Worshiping in union which can often be a little slice of heaven and puts a smile on God's face
• Relationship with other believers, which leads to encouragement, support, prayers, being there when someone has a need (such as when a family member is sick, someone needs a ride, someone needs a friend to just be there, etc.), coming together to defeat the enemy, and so much more
• Opportunities for children to hear the gospel and to see it in action and to be a part of something
• Faith building opportunities to serve in God's house
• Opportunity to enjoy the privilege that many risk their lives for
• An act of sacrifice (and perhaps obedience?) for God - giving up a couple of hours on a Sunday morning to do something for Him, when most would prefer to sleep or do something that pleasures them
• Opportunity to connect in small groups during the week that can help people in more specific stages of life, such as groups for mothers, fathers, women, men, young adults, emotional abuse survivors, new believers, etc.
• Extra eyes to help you stay on the straight and narrow - even though this is a hard one, having other true believers get to know us means that we will have extra eyes and ears that might help see something we can't see and will help us stay on the straight and narrow - this is a big Biblical principle
• Insight into what is going on beyond our little bubble - often we have no idea what other countries are enduring just to have church or to stay alive for that matter...churches that support missions around the world can give eyes into that and create a more prayerful, faith based, grateful attitude
• Opportunity to be in a place of safety, healing, growth, and above all worship of Jesus Christ - most of us aren't surrounded by people and an environment that is worshiping Jesus Christ on a daily basis, so being together for church can create that place
• So so so many more things...

Realistically, church was not created for the people. Church was created by people who followed Jesus, to worship him, to have the teachings of God taught, to exhort and build each other up. People were HUNGRY and would travel just to see these men who were teaching. They didn't care about the music, the way people were dressed, or how cool the pastor was. They wanted the truth and were so hungry they didn't care what it took.

Now in this day and age, church is formulated to be more about what is appealing to people. And I have no problem with that. But I think if we're to look at the Scriptures, we should have that same hunger for God...to just be in that place with other believers...because doing so helps us to grow and mature. A true believer will always have times of downfall, where they don't have that passion...but as a righteous man does, he falls seven times and rises an eighth. And that's the passion, and COMpassion we need to see in our churches. People who aren't afraid to give up a little time from their personal life, to go worship God. People who not only aren't afraid of it, but are desiring to, if it means being in God's house.

Yes, it is true that where there are two or three gathered, Christ is there. It is true that church can be held anywhere. But if you don't take that time out and give it to God, and connect with other believers, how can God function in your life the way that He designed? He designed us to need that...yet the avoidance of such prohibits Him from fully revealing Himself to us. I say that because everybody has a gift or two that God gave them. None of us has them all. We need the other gifts, to help build us up and challenge us. Also, others need the gift that we have. So by avoiding gathering together in a public place, in some ways it's not only inhibiting growth, but it's also inhibiting others from benefiting from what you have, that God gave you to use. And yes, God CAN do anything, literally anything, so He can/could reveal Himself in fullness without others, but He created things the way He did so that we needed connection, communication, and communion.

So why would anyone NOT want to be in church? I know the answer is that there is a lot of hurt and hypocrisy, and I understand that. I have been hurt too, several times. But yet, there are people in other lands who risk their lives and walk miles in horrible conditions just to get to church...yet us Americans have become so lethargic and apathetic in some ways. Like I said, not a heaven or hell thing. But really, where is the passion? Where is the desire to be with God's people? Where is the desire to grow? Where is the desire to support others, to connect with others in the community? Where is the desire to be a part of something that can go out into the community and help win over others for Christ? There's so little passion now...and that...that is what we need to get back.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If it was good enough for Jesus. . .

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. (Luke 4:16)

Then they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and taught.

And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue.

Now it happened on another Sabbath, also, that He entered the synagogue and taught.

Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
And the disciples. . .

But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. (Acts 13:14)

Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.... (Acts 17:1-2)

So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. (Acts 13:42-44)

 

[Wandering Cat Lady]

Then of course there is the argument about which is the true Sabbath day. But I tend to think that's a little irrelevant...though I don't have any Scripture for that.

Oh and in answer to your signature thatbrian, I'm pretty sure a close-minded fundamentalist is worse. I know open-minded liberals are nuts and believe a lot of false things, but close-minded fundies push so many people away and are one of the primary reasons why people DON'T attend church now. I grew up close-minded fundie...and still know a few like that...and I have to say that they are much scarier than the open minded liberal.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Oh and in answer to your signature thatbrian, I'm pretty sure a close-minded fundamentalist is worse. I know open-minded liberals are nuts and believe a lot of false things, but close-minded fundies push so many people away and are one of the primary reasons why people DON'T attend church now. I grew up close-minded fundie...and still know a few like that...and I have to say that they are much scarier than the open minded liberal.

Thanks for the reply.

Fundies are scary, but I disagree with them both equally. One may cause people to avoid church, but the other has gutted truth from (their) church, so, the result is the same. But, that's a discussion for another thread. . .