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JCFantasy23

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Your assumption is that none of us have experienced these things. I have experienced these things. From the age of eight until the age of eighteen our family church was a Pentecostal one (International Church of the Foursquare Gospel to be precise).

At the age of twelve a guest evangelist came to our church one night focusing primarily on reaching out to the younger people, so my parents brought me and that night I came forward to receive "baptism with the Holy Spirit". I had seen at on other occasions where people had been "slain in the Spirit" and so I went up, I saw others fall down, when the evangelist placed his hand on my head I also went down. A warm sensation flooded my body and, in the midst of others uttering glossolalia I began repeating certain syllables over and over again.

It was quite the remarkable experience, and afterward I became much more passionate at church. Where before I hated going to church and preferred to sit in the pew and doodle, I became more actively engaged.

Of course this was also during the onset of puberty, and facing the struggles of puberty I also came to try and rely on the rush of endorphin during worship to help satisfy my need to feel like I was accepted by God. Because the rest of the week my mind was rushing everywhere about sex and girls--you know, because I was a twelve year old boy. I had moments where I "knew I was saved" (a struggle I had dealt with since I was a small child, but that's part of my longer story), and then moments where I was convinced I wasn't saved, and even that perhaps I was unable to truly be saved. Why? Because I should have been experiencing the joy of the Lord, I should have been bearing fruit, I should have been getting certain sins under control if I was truly saved and truly had the Holy Spirit I should see some evidence of it in my life. It was a yo-yo effect, between spiritual highs and spiritual lows; and as an adolescent I simply didn't have the ability to deal with that kind of stress.

It's very possible that I suffered from what is called scrupulosity. But that's only hazarding a guess.

At the age of sixteen I joined my church's youth group on a mission to San Francisco. The first week of the mission was spent at a YWAM training camp. I had a powerful and very profound experience in that week, one that I kept with me for the rest of the duration of the trip, and kept with me in the months following.

I was very passionate about my faith, very zealous. I would spend hours in my room reading Scripture and listening to praise and worship music, pouring my heart out to God, laying prostrate in tears. I could easily work myself into a passionate frenzy of emotion in my room just as I could at my youth group and Sunday morning.

And then there would be weeks where I didn't experience anything. And that terrified me, I was convinced in those moments that I had offended God, and so He deprived His presence from me. So I worked very hard to try and avoid the sins I believed were most heinous and resulting in my being disciplined. But inevitably, no matter how hard I tried, I'd fail--of course I did, of course I would. And those old dreaded thoughts continued--I was unholy, I wasn't good enough for God, I didn't really mean it when I gave my life to Him I just thought I did. All I wanted was to feel like God loved me, to feel accepted by Him. I wasn't popular in school, I never was, but at least God would accept me; so I needed to feel accepted and loved. I never truly felt like I reached that place of being accepted by God, but I knew deep down that if I just kept trying, then I would grow and mature and become a better Christian, one that really loved the Lord and one that truly led a holy life. I knew I couldn't become sinless, but I was supposed to sin less right? So why wasn't I? Why was I sinning the same week after week?

That continued all the way through high school and into my earliest years as a legal adult and into my early twenties.

I know those experiences, I've had them. I've felt them. They are incredibly strong, and incredibly profound feeling.

That's also how I know how destructive depending on them is.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for sharing that story too. What you're describing is also why I think most don't - and shouldn't - have these intense feelings of euphoria all the time with God. It can confuse the person, or make them feel like there are moments where there is certain lacking when communication and connection happens without flutters in the chest or indescribable joy feelings. If the feeling doesn't keep up, the person may start doubting past experiences they had. They may start doubting themselves, as you said. It's more destructive than helpful. And of course there are those who may start chasing after the feeling of joy with God than God himself for all attributes and reasons. That's not to say that when these feelings and moments do come, that they're not wondrous and memorable and to be celebrated and embraced, but there has to be a balance to keep the relationship healthy. We are self-destructive by nature and tend to destroy the good in our lives if we don't watch it, including making ourselves stumble in our Christian walk.
 
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rockytopva

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These are not Spirit filled Christians.. And is a great way of loosing a generation for Christ!

Sleeping-in-Church2.jpg


I helped this man farm back in my younger days. He showed the fruits of the Holy Spirit all his days! Yes! Definitely a Spirit filled Christian!
Dallas_zps81e23487.jpg
 
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sunlover1

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The Holy Spirit does not need a human agent to give someone a spiritual gift.
Certainly not. And that wasn't what I asked though.
Here's my original post

Thank you. And Gills agrees with you, as does Jamieson-Fausset-Brown
so are you then saying that God the Spirit does not work all these things
(and distribute as He wills) through the laying on of hands?
Or are you saying that the passage you quote in 1 Cor 12:11 isn't even
about distributing the gifts of the Spirit at all?
 
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sunlover1

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Also the Holy Spirit doesn't use another person to interpret the sayings of another person. He deals directly Person to person.
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--
should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
 
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Righttruth

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If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--
should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

That is spirits of the persons involved, nothing to do with the Holy Spirit since He directly utters through a person.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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These are not Spirit filled Christians.. And is a great way of loosing a generation for Christ!

Sleeping-in-Church2.jpg


I helped this man farm back in my younger days. He showed the fruits of the Holy Spirit all his days! Yes! Definitely a Spirit filled Christian!
Dallas_zps81e23487.jpg

I wasn't aware that Christians were visually identifiable.
 
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Extraneous

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there aught to be visible evidences on the countenance when the professor goes from carnal to spiritual and vice versa.

Hows that? I have seen people smile while telling a lie, and people angry when telling the truth.
 
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rockytopva

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Hows that? I have seen people smile while telling a lie, and people angry when telling the truth.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. - 2 Corinthians 11:14

Satan does know how to use the power of light to deceive...
 
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Extraneous

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And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. - 2 Corinthians 11:14

Satan does know how to use the power of light to deceive...

How then do we use outward appearance to know carnal vs spiritual?
 
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rockytopva

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How then do we use outward appearance to know carnal vs spiritual?

A godly joy, for example....
e1f2962358a3b434d470dcad6ca4ba3f.jpg



A carnal joy, for example
A7oiIih8uESN53mTLKhMxQ2.png


A pure and a wholesome spirituality ought to radiate from the countenance.
 
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Extraneous

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A godly joy, for example....
e1f2962358a3b434d470dcad6ca4ba3f.jpg



A carnal joy, for example
A7oiIih8uESN53mTLKhMxQ2.png


A pure and a wholesome spirituality ought to radiate from the countenance.

Perhaps you never heard of Job then? Or the apostles who endured such hardship that they despaired even of life itself? Maybe you haven't read that we mourn with those that mourn? Or that those who sow tears bear precious seed? How about Christ who was nailed to a cross, despising the shame of it, and died a horrible wretched sinners death, though he was the King of Kings? Have you not read that we must take up our cross and follow Him?
 
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rockytopva

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Perhaps you never heard of Job then? Or the apostles who endured such hardship that they despaired even of life itself? Maybe you haven't read that we mourn with those that mourn? Or that those who sow tears bear precious seed? How about Christ who was nailed to a cross, despising the shame of it, and died a horrible wretched sinners death, though he was the King of Kings? Have you not read that we must take up our cross and follow Him?

Yea... But with Christ there can be joy in the hardships.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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A godly joy, for example....
e1f2962358a3b434d470dcad6ca4ba3f.jpg



A carnal joy, for example
A7oiIih8uESN53mTLKhMxQ2.png


A pure and a wholesome spirituality ought to radiate from the countenance.

This post is among the wildest I've seen on CF. I wish that you could have seen my facial expression when I saw it.
 
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Righttruth

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Certainly not. And that wasn't what I asked though.
Here's my original post

Thank you. And Gills agrees with you, as does Jamieson-Fausset-Brown
so are you then saying that God the Spirit does not work all these things
(and distribute as He wills) through the laying on of hands?
Or are you saying that the passage you quote in 1 Cor 12:11 isn't even
about distributing the gifts of the Spirit at all?

I don't think laying of the hands is related to 1 Cor 12:11; it is about helping to receive the Holy Spirit.
 
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sunlover1

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Also the Holy Spirit doesn't use another person to interpret the sayings of another person. He deals directly Person to person.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--
should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

That is spirits of the persons involved, nothing to do with the Holy Spirit since He directly utters through a person.
Here in 1 Cor 12, it shows that it IS the Holy Spirit who "works" all these things... as HE wills.
And indeed the Holy Spirit does use another person to "interpret tongues":

...to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another
the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the
interpretation of tongues.11But one and the same Spirit works all these things,
distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
 
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Job8

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What Exactly is a "Spirit-Filled" Church?
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:41-47).

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. (Acts 4:31,32).
 
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sunlover1

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Thank you for sharing that story too. What you're describing is also why I think most don't - and shouldn't - have these intense feelings of euphoria all the time with God. It can confuse the person,
Men and women through the ages have had "intense feelings of euphoria" with their spouse. It's just what happens when
you're in love. So i think it's quite natural to feel the same when worshiping. At least that's how it works with me.

or make them feel like there are moments where there is certain lacking when communication and connection happens without flutters in the chest or indescribable joy feelings. If the feeling doesn't keep up, the person may start doubting past experiences they had. They may start doubting themselves, as you said. It's more destructive than helpful.
Huh?
When I don't have the feelings, it doesn't change anything at all.
Just as when a man doesn't feel all fluttery with his bride. still same
relationship, still same love :) But when that man is in the middle of
pouring his heart out to his bride, telling her how great his love is
for her, using words to describe it etc.. then it's a natural response
for both of them to feel giddy.

And of course there are those who may start chasing after the feeling of joy with God than God himself for all attributes and reasons. That's not to say that when these feelings and moments do come, that they're not wondrous and memorable and to be celebrated and embraced, but there has to be a balance to keep the relationship healthy. We are self-destructive by nature and tend to destroy the good in our lives if we don't watch it, including making ourselves stumble in our Christian walk.
I'd be more concerned about those who are sad, depressed, angry, sullen etc. than those who find Joy in God's presence.
It was, after all, His plan. He wants us to come to Him to find peace, joy, healing, love, etc.

Her priests I will clothe with salvation,
and her saints will shout for joy. ~Psalms

Though you have not seen him, you love him.
Though you do not now see him, you believe in
him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory...
~1 Peter 1

My lips will shout for joy, when I sing praises to you;
my soul also, which you have redeemed. ~Psalm 71
 
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