71% of New Yorkers want mosque away from Ground Zero

[disciple-ofjesus]

I remember on 9/11 watching the news as it broke.

The first international reaction to the atrocity was from Nablus in Palestine, where rioting mobs burned American and Israeli flags in celebration of what had just happened, while chanting 'Allah wakbar'.

The Americans have sinced fallen over themselves trying to rush in a hopeless peace process between Israel and those thugs.

When are you going to wake up?

They celebrate when your people are murdered!

amazing to me that people are ignorantly blissfully unaware of this. Too eager to be politcally correct and appease these people. I know my Palestian brother in law didn't come rushing across the street to see how I was doing with it...being American..in fact, he had a smug smile. WAKE UP PEOPLE. The heck with PC'ism. These people are doing their best to take over. IF where they came from was SO good...PLEASE! GO BACK!

 

[Faulty]

Remember the seven church of Asia Minor. Ephesus was a centre of Christianity. Not after Islam came.

The judgment of Ephesus did not occur when the muslims came. The judgment came in Revelation 2:5. Islam was just a tool in God's hands, much like the Babylonians and Assyrians with the nation of Israel.

The church has a track record of bathing in sin and not doing what it's supposed to be doing, but it was foretold to be this way by Jesus in His Kingdom parables, so why are we surprised.

 

[lismore]

amazing to me that people are ignorantly blissfully unaware of this. Too eager to be politcally correct and appease these people. I know my Palestian brother in law didn't come rushing across the street to see how I was doing with it...being American..in fact, he had a smug smile. WAKE UP PEOPLE. The heck with PC'ism. These people are doing their best to take over. IF where they came from was SO good...PLEASE! GO BACK!

Yes. It's not about Muslims praying or practicing their faith. It's about them mis-using rights that they would deny to others.

How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia? Zero.

Islam is not tolerance. Tolerance is a two way street.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

exactly Lismore. I couldn't agree more. Amazing the ignorance being shown. I know enough to be aware.

 

[hislegacy]

Yes. It's not about Muslims praying or practicing their faith. It's about them mis-using rights that they would deny to others.

How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia? Zero.

Islam is not tolerance. Tolerance is a two way street.

Let's revue:

A Jihad (a religious holy war) is declared against the US. - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

A group of muslims get trained partially in a mosque and the US Cole is attacked - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

In NYC a muslim Imam organizes, funds and carries out a bombing on the World Trade Center - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

9/11 happens Four planes crash after being hijaked by people trained under the guidence of Imams - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

Every one of those planes were crashed by people who were shouting praises to their God as they killed thousands - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

At the news of 3,000 plus innocent lives being lost, international reaction included jubulant shouts of praise to their God - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

An American journalist is beheaded on tape to the shouts of praises to their God - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

I woman gets on a bus, heads to a crowded market place filled with woman and children, detonates a bomb because she believes it is her service to God - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

Throughout history muslim have built mosque near or on sites they view as battlefield of victory - But hey, It has nothing to do with religion.

 

[SharonL]

Right on Balance - best explaination yet.

 

[Faulty]

exactly Lismore. I couldn't agree more. Amazing the ignorance being shown. I know enough to be aware.

I would say its more like 'arrogance' being shown.

Seems to me people are forgetting exactly who is in charge around here.

Yea, we don't fear a muslim, but a muslim with a checkbook? Well, that's a different story. Whatever.

There's a lot of fear in these threads. Fear and anger.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

gee....ya think Faulty? NO wonder. People being so blind to the OBVIOUS. NOT fear when you have been told by MUSLIMS themselves what their plans are. It is STUPID to bury your head in the sand for the sake of PC. You "name" it whatever you want. I will go with what my brother in law has said, our neighbors that are Muslims have said.

 

[Questioning Christian]

I don't know about that. You are welcome to believe that. But, I do know that the anti-theists love it when Christians oppose Free Exercise Rights.

Well, nobody here in this topic has opposed Free Exercise Rights, as we've all acknowledged the Muslims have a perfect LEGAL right to build their mosque. That's not what we're debating. This debate might go differently if people comprehended that simple fact.

 

[simonpeter]

amazing to me that people are ignorantly blissfully unaware of this. Too eager to be politcally correct and appease these people. I know my Palestian brother in law didn't come rushing across the street to see how I was doing with it...being American..in fact, he had a smug smile. WAKE UP PEOPLE. The heck with PC'ism. These people are doing their best to take over. IF where they came from was SO good...PLEASE! GO BACK!

Your cute anecdotes are now evidence that Muslims are taking over the world. Okay, we get it ... calling Batman right away!

 

[lismore]

Wait a minute, didn't y'all let the Lockerbie bomber go?

No, we didnt get him in jail yet!

 

[dies-l]

Well, nobody here in this topic has opposed Free Exercise Rights, as we've all acknowledged the Muslims have a perfect LEGAL right to build their mosque. That's not what we're debating. This debate might go differently if people comprehended that simple fact.

It has been pointed out to you several times that what you claim here is simply not true. Just because you do not oppose Free Exercise rights does not mean nobody else does. And, several of the posts in this very thread have argued in favor of denying the group the right to build their mosque. Not only that, the poll that you cited indicated that a substantial number of people do oppose the right to build the building in question.

I understand that you may not agree with those who would deny this group their Free Exercise rights. I have acknowledged this fact. However, you are not the only one who is participating in this thread, and many who are participating in this thread take a more hardline position than you do.

ETA: If your position is that we should, to the extent that we can without violating basic constitutional rights, express our disapproval of the proposed building, then, by all means, go for it. I won't be joining you, but I certainly won't be opposing you. However, if your position is that the government of NYC or NYS or the US, should prohibit the group from building a mosque or Muslim Community Center on this site, then I will oppose you as one who cherishes the basic constitutional rights that many people have died for. I trust that your position is the first one I described. If so, all you get from me is mild disagreement. I respect your right to hold that opinion and to express it to the owners of the property in question. But, as I said, others here hold the latter position, and this position I will oppose vigorously.

 

[probinson]

Nice deflection.

Indeed. Posting the names of the victims of 9/11 is a nice deflection, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Can't you at least acknowledge those dead people instead of just saying, "okay, NEXT" ?

I did. I acknowledged that those people were senselessly murdered on 9/11. What more would you like me to say?

 

[probinson]

Once again, this debate has nothing to do with rights.

Yes, it does.

Of COURSE they have the legal right to build their shrine to Satan.

Good. We agree that they have the right to build.

What we are debating here is this question:

Is it proper for Muslims to push for a Mosque very near to Ground Zero in the face of those non-Muslim Americans who were so affected by 9/11 not very long ago? 20 or 30 years from now, it might be different. But the wound is too fresh.

It's a matter of respect and consideration.

So, you're suggesting that because it's not politically correct, they shouldn't do it? They should do what the public deems "proper"?

I guess respect and consideration don't fly with some people, who would rather argue over technical points of the law than they would look at a GREATER law, which is the law of taking into account how people other than "my four and no more" feel about a subject.

Good plan. Let's up and chuck out the laws and instead start making decisions based on how other people feel about what we should do.

We've spent nine years bending over and grabbing our ankles for Muslims, after THEY attacked US.

Terrorists, not Muslims, attacked us.

Also, I asked you earlier in the thread to explain to me exactly how you've shown ANY consideration to Muslims. I've yet to hear how this is anything more than a gross overstatement.

It's time for a little mutual consideration.

Are you suggesting that we should show consideration to people so that they will in turn show us the same consideration? And if they don't, we can claim the moral high ground because we've "[bent] over and [grabbed] our ankles" for them?

• George Bush had the RIGHT to deport all Muslims in the wake of 9/11. He didn't exercise that right.

Do you honestly believe this? What on earth would have given George Bush the RIGHT to deport all Muslims in the wake of 9/11?

• The feds had the RIGHT to stop every Muslim in the USA after 9/11 and ask for their papers. They didn't exercise that right.

Probably because they realized something you don't seem to understand; "Muslims" didn't attack us. Terrorists did.

• Barack Obama had the RIGHT to keep the war in Iraq going. He didn't exercise that right.

You've completely lost me here.

So, as far as "rights" go, that's the biggest bunch of malarky.

No, it's really not.

It's a cover. If it was about "rights", you'd see that we have not pushed our own rights as Americans, and that Muslims [who are NOW citizens of THIS country] should reciprocate, being the AMERICANS that they are [or are supposed to be in theory], and that they should be just as willing to make this one concession for us SINCE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE CONSIDERATE AMERICANS, considering how WE have made all these concessions to them for the past nine years in the face of THEIR religion and THEIR friends and family committing the atrocities of 9/11.

THIS is what is a load of malarky.

Your argument seems to be that they have the right to build, but they shouldn't. IOW, because the majority doesn't think they should, it doesn't really matter if they have the right to do it or not. They should just willingly surrender that right. If that isn't political correctness, I don't know what is.

I am absolutely amazed at the cognitive dissonance that must occur in one's mind to make such a contradictory statement and see no issue with it.

1 Corinthians 13:5 says that Love does not insist on its own rights. With that in mind, there are many things that I have the right to do that I don't do. But the reason I don't always exercise my rights is because the Love of God inside me compels me to do otherwise.

That is REMARKABLY different than me not exercising my rights because someone tells me I shouldn't.

Further, it's fine if you think they shouldn't build there, but the bottom line is, what you think doesn't really matter when we're talking about what someone has the right to do.

Who are you going to stand up for?

Anyone whose rights are being suppressed.

You guys aren't arguing for Muslim rights.

True. We're arguing for equal rights.

You seem to be arguing for the Muslim cause.

I can only assume this statement means you've run out of valid arguments, and so now you're going to focus your efforts not on the points raised ni the discussio, but on our motives, in an attempt to ramp up the rhetoric that implies, if not directly states, that the only reason we disagree with you is because we're Islamic sympathizers. This, of course, is completely untrue, but it will make our argument less valid if you can paint us with that brush.

FTR, I am arguing for eqaul rights. Period. I have asked repeatedly for someone to present any reasonable evidence that would show just cause for why this building should not be built, and thus far NO ONE has presented any. All we've been given is empty rhetoric and fear-driven illogicality.

 

[probinson]

I argue for the religious liberties of Muslims, because I want to protect the religious liberties of Christians.

The right of Christians to hold and express unpopular opinions is directly tied to the rights of people of other religions to hold their own unpopular beliefs. When we say that it is okay for the government to infringe upon the rights of Muslims, because we do not like what they believe, we open the door for the same government to infringe upon the rights of Christians if mainstream society does not like what we believe.

When we open our eyes and realize that the Free Excercise Clause applies to people of all religions or none at all, then the question of whether or not this building should be permitted is clear as day to anyone who supports religious freedom.

You can disagree with whether it is appropriate. You can petition the owners to cease building or to build it somewhere else. You can even protest their decision. These are all valid expressions of your 1st Amendment rights. However, when you ask the Government to interfere with their basic constitutional rights because you disagree with what they believe, you are entering into very dangerous territory.

Excellent post!

It has been suggested by some in this discussion that I am "blind", but I'm beginning to believe it's the other way around. You have done an excellent job of pointing out where that blindness lies, and the implications of the "victory" of disallowing the construction of this building.

 

[probinson]

amazing to me that people are ignorantly blissfully unaware of this. Too eager to be politcally correct and appease these people. I know my Palestian brother in law didn't come rushing across the street to see how I was doing with it...being American..in fact, he had a smug smile. WAKE UP PEOPLE. The heck with PC'ism. These people are doing their best to take over. IF where they came from was SO good...PLEASE! GO BACK!

Indeed. Wake up.

You're saying we shouldn't be politically correct, but you don't think they should exercise their right to build because it's unpopular, or rather, because it's not politically correct.

 

[probinson]

Well, nobody here in this topic has opposed Free Exercise Rights, as we've all acknowledged the Muslims have a perfect LEGAL right to build their mosque.

Yes, they are.

Go back to page 1 and start reading the legal debate that occurred, where the discussion focused on what was the best legal maneuver to block the construction of this building.

That's not what we're debating. This debate might go differently if people comprehended that simple fact.

This debate might go differently if people actually addressed the points raised.

 

[SharonL]

Chip by chip this mighty tree will fall - we now have several Muslim's in government, including a president who sides with them - chipping away at this mighty tree of America and when it falls, we can all stand back and say - well they were within their rights - How can they swear to defend our Constitution when they are bound to defend the Qu'ran - they do not go side by side. Their goal is to take over the world and it is making it very easy for them when governments agree with them. No one is paying any attention to the Muslims that were brought up under the Qu'ran have spoken out and tells us exactly what they are planning at the fear of having their head chopped off. It is almost too late to listen. Watch carefully as the might Oak falls all within their rights.

 

[dorig59]

To my new friends, simonpeter, questioning Christian, and a few others, let me say a few things you might want to point out to anyone you happen to find yourself in a debate with over this issue. I personally refuse to discuss this with any American so freakin' ignorant that they would actually DEFEND muslims/terrorists. Absolutely absurd.

Do any of you know what's going on in Europe these days? Do you understand that because of liberal, "tolerant", and PC kind of thinking over there that the Muslims are virtually taking over their countries. Puhleeeeeeze look at this video: YouTube - 'Islamization' of Paris a Warning to the West It will enlighten your world.

I would also ask the "debaters", have they ever read The Light and the Glory? It will give you the best history lesson of how and why our country was founded than you'll find in any textbook in the public schools. Do enlighten yourself.

And one other thing I find quite puzzling about this whole issue, which I haven't seen anyone else bring up is this: where the heck are the feminists? Do they have any idea how Muslim women are treated? Where's all the hoopla, the hollerin', the media coverage on this? The feminists have been strangely silent of late, hmmm, I wonder why?

My final statement is as follows:
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." DUH!

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

that is why I haven't responded to the posts. It is showing ignorance and burying their head in the sand. It is "silly rhetoric" when I posted about what Muslims have told me from their own mouth.
Sharon, you are right. Ignorance truly is bliss.