71% of New Yorkers want mosque away from Ground Zero

[Questioning Christian]

Battle over mosque near Ground Zero could shape the future of Islam in America, imam says as 71 percent of New Yorkers say they want it moved. - NYPOST.com

 

[Aibrean]

Well it's not exactly at Ground Zero...it's like 4 blocks away. If we get the freedom to build churches where we want, they should be able to build mosques where they want.

 

[probinson]

A link to the poll;
New York State (NY) Poll * August 31, 2010 * 9/11 Family Concerns Outweigh - Quinnipiac University – Hamden, Connecticut

Interestingly, the poll found "that because of American freedom of religion, Muslims have the right to build the mosque near Ground Zero," but also "that because of the sensitivities of 9/11 relatives, Muslims should not be allowed to build the mosque near Ground Zero."

How's that again? How can you simultaneously believe that someone has the right to do something and believe that they should not be allowed to do it?

That's cognitive dissonance at its finest.

I mean, I can see how you can simultaneously believe that just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean that you should do it, but that's far different than saying you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Additionally, the poll found "that because of the opposition of Ground Zero relatives, the Muslim group should voluntarily build the mosque somewhere else." But that oversimplifies, misrepresents and marginalizes the positions of groups like these who are "Ground Zero relatives" in favor of the project.

Also interesting is that 40% of the people polled don't agree that Muslims even have the right to build near ground zero. That's odd, since I've heard people adamantly declare that "no one" is questioning whether Muslims have the right to do this.

 

[probinson]

Well it's not exactly at Ground Zero...it's like 4 blocks away. If we get the freedom to build churches where we want, they should be able to build mosques where they want.

Actually, it's 2 blocks away (just over 600 ft), but it's not even visible from ground zero, nor is ground zero visible from the proposed building site.

 

[LightHorseman]

The most amusing bit is that the people trumpeting "sensitivity to the 9/11 victims and families" are the exact same people who, under any other circumstance, would be wailing about the evils of political correctness, and how they shouldn't be stopped from doing what they want because their actions might offend people.

Americans can be very odd.

 

[Faulty]

Americans can be very odd.

Thanks!!!

 

[LightHorseman]

Interestingly, the poll found "that because of American freedom of religion, Muslims have the right to build the mosque near Ground Zero," but also "that because of the sensitivities of 9/11 relatives, Muslims should not be allowed to build the mosque near Ground Zero."

How's that again? How can you simultaneously believe that someone has the right to do something and believe that they should not be allowed to do it?

Reminds me of nothing quite so much as this...

YouTube - Monty Python's The life of Brian - I want to be a woman

Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb - which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans' - but that he can have the *right* to have babies.

 

[Simon Peter]

Just because there is 'freedom of religion' in the USA, doesn't mean that freedom is an unlimited right.

Take the 'right to bare arms' for example, its not an unlimited right, there are all sorts of limits and restrictions placed on that 'right'.

You need a permit to purchase a gun in many states, and permits are often denied for all sorts of reasons. New York City has strict gun laws.

I think it's perfectly reasonable that the mosque should be denied the right to build near ground zero - or anywhere in the NYC area - if there's suspicion that they will use the site to celebrate 9/11, encourage terrorism, hate crimes or treason.


peace,
Simon

 

[LightHorseman]

I think it's perfectly reasonable that the mosque should be denied the right to build near ground zero - or anywhere in the NYC area - if there's suspicion that they will use the site to celebrate 9/11, encourage terrorism, hate crimes or treason.

Thats probably valid.

But is there any evidence to support that sort of suspicion?

 

[probinson]

I think it's perfectly reasonable that the mosque should be denied the right to build near ground zero - or anywhere in the NYC area - if there's suspicion that they will use the site to celebrate 9/11, encourage terrorism, hate crimes or treason.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to deny ANYONE the right to construct a building ANYWHERE in the US if there is reasonable and substantiated evidence to show that they will use the building to encourage any kind of unlawful act.

I think it's absolutely unreasonable to deny anyone their equal rights based on unfounded suspicions.

 

[rosenherman]

Well it's not exactly at Ground Zero...it's like 4 blocks away. If we get the freedom to build churches where we want, they should be able to build mosques where they want.

Sure, they can build a mosque at that site, they can even name it Cordoba which; for those who don't read, refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world’s third-largest mosque complex.

Just as soon as we can build a cathedral or temple in Saudi Arabia.

 

[rosenherman]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to deny ANYONE the right to construct a building ANYWHERE in the US if there is reasonable and substantiated evidence to show that they will use the building to encourage any kind of unlawful act.

I think it's absolutely unreasonable to deny anyone their equal rights based on unfounded suspicions.

Excuse me? An equal right to build?

 

[probinson]

Excuse me? An equal right to build?

Equal rights. Maybe you've heard of 'em...

For example, if I legally purchase a parcel of land and I adhere to all local building codes and laws, and there is no reasonable or substantiated suspicion that I am going to use the proposed structure to plot the demise of American civilization or for some other such nefarious purpose, then no matter who I am, I should be granted equal rights to build there.

Or maybe you agree with the 40% of the people in the poll referenced in this thread that don't believe Muslims should have equal rights...

 

[Tamara224]

Lighthorseman, I didn't realize you were Charismatic. Are you? Or is the only reason you're in this forum to debate this particular issue?

Just curious.




ETA: Oh, and as for the OP. Of course most New Yorkers are opposed. They have a better understanding of what this is really all about, IMHO.

It's such a joke that so many Americans can't see what it's really about. They're building the mosque/community center as a symbol of their victory. Why should New Yorkers be happy about that? Why should any of us be happy about that?

Just because our leaders have been lying for years about how this isn't a religious war doesn't mean it's true. It's Jihad. It's foolish to pretend like it's not about religion.

This nation has been blinded by political correctness. This isn't a matter of religious freedom or the First Amendment - that's a red herring. If the local government of New York decides to restrict where the mosque can be built, that will not be a violation of the First Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof").

 

[rosenherman]

Equal rights. Maybe you've heard of 'em...

For example, if I legally purchase a parcel of land and I adhere to all local building codes and laws, and there is no reasonable or substantiated suspicion that I am going to use the proposed structure to plot the demise of American civilization or for some other such nefarious purpose, then no matter who I am, I should be granted equal rights to build there.

Or maybe you agree with the 40% of the people in the poll referenced in this thread that don't believe Muslims should have equal rights...

Reasonable and substantiated is in the mind of the decider. They may have adhered to them; that doesn't mean I have to approve or agree with what they are trying to do. Things can be shoved down unwilling peoples throats for a limited time. If it is deemed necessary someone in Manhattan may take the time to make that spot unusable. And if they try to build it, it may be destroyed. We'll just have to see.

 

[lismore]

Don't allow mosques anywhere. They are places for the promotion of a false gospel of works that cannot save. Or have we ripped John 14:6 out of our bibles?

 

[rosenherman]

Don't allow mosques anywhere. They are places for the promotion of a false gospel of works that cannot save. Or have we ripped John 14:6 out of our bibles?

Wait a minute, didn't y'all let the Lockerbie bomber go?

 

[Faulty]

I just wonder if those who support the reasonings and processes involved in hindering in the building of the mosque will accept and support the same reasonings and processes with the same amount of vigor when they are turned back on the true Church.

 

[probinson]

It's such a joke that so many Americans can't see what it's really about. They're building the mosque/community center as a symbol of their victory.

Just because our leaders have been lying for years about how this isn't a religious war doesn't mean it's true. It's Jihad. It's foolish to pretend like it's not about religion.

This nation has been blinded by political correctness. This isn't a matter of religious freedom or the First Amendment - that's a red herring.

So it is about religion, but it is not about religious freedom?

If the local government of New York decides to restrict where the mosque can be built, that will not be a violation of the First Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof").

The local government of New York would have to change the existing laws to restrict where it is built. On what premise should they alter the laws to disallow the construction of mosques?

 

[probinson]

Reasonable and substantiated is in the mind of the decider.

To some extent. But beyond empty accusations that the purpose of this building is to be a symbol of Islamic victory over the US, I've seen nothing of substance to support that claim.

They may have adhered to them; that doesn't mean I have to approve or agree with what they are trying to do.

You're right. We don't have to agree with it. But we can't just deny people rights based on emotions or what we disagree with.

Things can be shoved down unwilling peoples throats for a limited time. If it is deemed necessary someone in Manhattan may take the time to make that spot unusable. And if they try to build it, it may be destroyed. We'll just have to see.

I sure hope not. It would be an absolutely horrible witness for us to talk about how wrong it was for the terrorists to destroy the WTC and then turn around and destroy another building because we disagreed with it.