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No one knows the date when the 2300 day end times vision will begin.Do you think you're fooling me with this response? Can you acknowledge that you don't know how or when Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled, as evidenced by the fact that you can't answer that question? Referring to verses 21-23 does not answer the question and you know that.
I'm not asking for an exact date and I think you know that. I'll try to rephrase the question that you are pretending to not understand. When do you think the 70th week will begin and end in relation to the second coming of Christ?No one knows the date when the 2300 day end times vision will begin.
7 years before Jesus returns - 70th week begins. 70th week ends when Jesus returns.When do you think the 70th week will begin and end in relation to the second coming of Christ?
But what positively negates the no future 70th week argument being made is Daniel 9:21-23. Which refers back to the vision in Daniel 8.
So, you mentioned one of the six things here and the timing in relation to Christ's return.7 years before Jesus returns - 70th week begins. 70th week ends when Jesus returns.
v24 "to seal up the vision...."
The vision is identified in v21-23, the one Daniel had seen Gabriel in the vision in Daniel 8, regarding the 2300 days of the vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice sacrifice, and committing the transgression of desolation, and the temple cleansed of those things that will have made it desolate. Time of the end.
The 2300 days have to fit within the 2520 day 70th week. And be in the time of the end.
I am focusing on the 70th week still being unfulfilled, and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years to begin it.So, you mentioned one of the six things here and the timing in relation to Christ's return.
I'm sure you agree that the other five things listed in Daniel 9:24 have to be fulfilled by the end of the 70th week as well. What is your understanding of the fulfillment of finishing the transgression, making an end of sins, making reconciliation for iniquity, bringing in everlasting righteousness and anointing the most holy?
At the end of the 69th, just as Daniel 9:26 says.In what week do you think he atoned for our sins?
Where do you get that idea from? I attribute nothing other than godlessness to the AC.To attribute to antichrist the complete, perfect, and fulfilled accomplishments of Messiah at Calvary is the ultimate blasphemy.
He was saying that He was about to die.You clearly don't even understand what He was saying when He said "It is finished".
I am not a pre-tribber. I refute the 'rapture' and I promote God's plans for His faithful people, all as described by the Prophets.Are you really this ignorant about what he and I believe? We are amillennialists. We preach against avoiding hard times constantly. Amil doctrine is the furthest from pre-trib as you can get. We refute the pre-trib dispensationalist false doctrine often on here. How can you not know this? Why is it that you are so ignorant?
Yes Jesus did make the full and final Atonement for our sins on the Cross. But we are still sinning and the world will continue that way until He Returns and chains up Satan. Only then will ALL those 6 points be fulfilled.I can't believe you are saying this! Ive heard futurists say that some clauses of Daniel 9:24 await fulfillment, but never the third clause. Christ made full atonement for the world when he died. This is fundamental to all Christians.
But it gives you another opportunity to post again and again your fanciful 'charts'.The arguments made in this thread so far are never ending.
No Douggg, it doesn't. The 2300 evenings and mornings were fulfilled in 167 to 164 BC. Proved by history.So the 2300 days have to fit in the 70 weeks. 7 years is 2520 days.
Time of the end. And Gabriel referred to that vision in Daniel 9:21-23.No Douggg, it doesn't. The 2300 evenings and mornings were fulfilled in 167 to 164 BC. Proved by history.
Yes Jesus did make the full and final Atonement for our sins on the Cross. But we are still sinning and the world will continue that way until He Returns and chains up Satan. Only then will ALL those 6 points be fulfilled.
No one knows the date when the 2300 day end times vision will begin.
At the end of the 69th, just as Daniel 9:26 says.
In what week did Jesus atone for sin?
How could he have atoned for sin before he arrived ?
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks
He was cut off after 69 weeks meaning half way through the following week.
Thank you for confirming that you have no answer for how Daniel 9:24 was or will be fulfilled which shows that no one should trust your understanding of Daniel's 70 week prophecy.I am focusing on the 70th week still being unfulfilled, and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years to begin it.
How do you conclude that AFTER the 69 weeks means at the end of the 69th week?At the end of the 69th, just as Daniel 9:26 says.
Nothing is more foolish than not accepting that it says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks and then trying to say He is cut off at the end of the 69th week.It is AFTER the end of the 69 weeks that He would be cut off, not at the end of the 69th week. You are being intellectually dishonest here because of doctrinal bias
I am not a pre-tribber. I refute the 'rapture' and I promote God's plans for His faithful people, all as described by the Prophets.
I view the AMill belief as foolishness, We are not in the Millennium now!
Please explain how each of those 6 things will be fulfilled when He returns.Yes Jesus did make the full and final Atonement for our sins on the Cross. But we are still sinning and the world will continue that way until He Returns and chains up Satan. Only then will ALL those 6 points be fulfilled.
Why are you not using the previous verse (verse 26) to aid your understanding? It says "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". That is what was to be made desolate. The city and the sanctuary. As Jesus prophesied about here:I still see it making zero sense that Christ confirmed the covenant for one week, when the following couldn't possibly confirm a covenant by Christ----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. That is meaning during this same 70th week. There is no way it can't be. And the fact some of you refuse to admit it, you would have the rest of us believe that you are interpreting verse 27 correctly and that some of the rest of us are not.
What is it that some of you think is being made desolate? How can it not involve this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease? What else is there in that verse that this could pertain to if not that?
Why are you not using the previous verse (verse 26) to aid your understanding? It says "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". That is what was to be made desolate. The city and the sanctuary. As Jesus prophesied about here:
Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
And here (Matt 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 are parallel accounts of this):
Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
It is not necessary for this to have been fulfilled within the 70th week because this is speaking of the consummation or end result of what would occur during the 70th week. It's because of the Jews overall rejection of Christ that He rendered their temple spiritually desolate during the 70th week (Matt 23:37-38) and determined that their city and temple would be made physically desolate because of that as well.
Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
At the end of the 69th, just as Daniel 9:26 says
No one knows the date when the 2300 day end times vision will begin.
The 2300 evenings and mornings do not fit anywhere in the end times.Time of the end. And Gabriel referred to that vision in Daniel 9:21-23.
Basically; yes. Only when Jesus Returns and chains up Satan, Revelation 20:1-3, will there be no more sin [iniquity] and Jesus' Atonement for sins will be fulfilled.So Keras, "to make atonement for iniquity" - the 3rd clause of Daniel 9:24 - was fulfilled at his 1st coming, but the other 5 clauses are awaiting fulfillment at his 2nd coming? Is that what you are saying?
But 'after' in this case means; immediately or directly after, not 3 1/2 years after. If you were correct, the scripture would read; later, or after a time...... [time, times and half a time]He was cut off after 69 weeks meaning half way through the following week.
Nothing destroys your false beliefs more than showing how you misread scripture. My refutation is above.Nothing is more foolish than not accepting that it says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks and then trying to say He is cut off at the end of the 69th week.
Is Jesus Christ not reigning now?
But we are not yet in the New Covenant.I know this is brief, but I believe the text is telling us that Daniel's 70th week corresponds with the dispensation of the new covenant, which was inaugurated at the first advent and is present now until Christ returns.
But 'after' in this case means; immediately or directly after, not 3 1/2 years after.
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