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"70 Weeks" of lunar years

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by aChristian, Apr 8, 2002.

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  1. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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  2. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Phoenix,

    Thanks for the link. The article was helpful.
     
  3. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    no thanks - I've had my fill, but thanks for offering
     
  4. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    My pleasure, i'm sure there are lots of others out there as well. For me anyway, it's a pretty good middle ground. Full preterism is a lot to swallow..i think they would be the first ones to agree with that. Partial helps me understand that while much prophecy has been fulfilled, much has not. I wish i knew more to really participate in the discussions but as a beginner, i'll lurk for now.

    regards
     
  5. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I don't claim to unseal anything for anybody.

    Not only the moon, as you confirmed. 475 Julian years would still be only 475 Jewish years because of the adjustments the Jews make to their calendar.

    Mine says 465 BC. My question is, how were these various dates determined?
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    According to the text, that would be impossible.

    Daniel 9:26
    "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,..."

    The text makes it absolutely clear that Messiah was to be cut of after the 69th week had already ended.

    There is in fact a different event that "ended" the 69th week:

    Daniel 9:25
    "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

    The Text says that the 69 weeks begin with the decree, and ends with the advent of "Messiah the Prince".

    I'll now borrow from the link GW posted link for ease of reference:
    __________________________________________________
    Indeed, Daniel prophesied in verse 25 that from the commandment to restore and rebuild Israel to the coming of the Messiah is 483 years.
    The question comes to "which decree is it?"

    Here are the decrees: (all dates taken from the 1917 Scofield Reference Bible)

    The Decree of Cyrus - about 536 BC
    * Ezra 1:2-4 Cyrus sends folks out to build the temple.
    * The math: 536 - 483 = 53 BC.
    * Guess what? No Messiah in 53BC.

    The Decree of Artaxerxes - about 534 BC
    * Ezra 4:17-22 Artaxerxes' decree here is actually to stop building and wait, not to start.
    * Scratch that one.

    Haggai and Zechariah Prophesy
    * Ezra 5:1-3 Here Zerubbabel and Jeshua build, but no decree is mentioned.
    * Scratch that.

    Darius quotes Cyrus - about 520 BC
    * Ezra 6:1-5 Darius simply quotes Cyrus, but in vv. 6-12, Darius sends out a decree.
    * The math: 520 - 483 = 37 BC (some say 33BC...it's close enough I reckon).
    * Maybe this was when Theudas popped up?
    * Scratch this one, no Messiah.

    Ezra 6:14
    * "According to the commandment of God, of Cyrus, of Darius, and of Artaxerxes they builded and finished it."
    * But look carefully at the decree above of Artaxerxes. His decree was to stop building and wait.
    * So they couldn't have been talking about his decree.

    Decree of Artaxerxes - 458 BC
    * Ezra 7:12 - 26 Artaxerxes makes the decree.
    * The math: 483-458 = 25, but there was no 0 AD nor 0 BC, so that makes 26 AD.
    * What happened in 26 AD?

    Mark 1:9-10
    "9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
    10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:"

    Messiah the Prince came and the Spirit, like a dove, descended upon Him. So began the ministry of Jesus Christ.
    What is 483 + 7? 490 years. Simple.

    Jesus' first coming and ministry on this earth, through to His death, burial and resurrection, and subsequent freeing of the Gospel to the Gentiles 7 years after His annointing baptism, fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel.
    ________________________________________________________

    P70
     
  7. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Postrib,

    You wrote: Mine says 465 BC.

    The actual year Artaxerxes became king of Persia is referred to as 465/464 BC by serious historians. For the years of the Persian kings were then reckoned on a "Nisan to Nisan" or "spring to spring" basis. In other words, the ancient Persians used a calendar that did not begin in January, as ours does, but began in the spring. So the first year of Artaxerxes covered parts of both 465 and 464 BC. Because of this, sometimes 465 is cited as his first year and sometimes 464. But the time when Artaxerxes began to rule Persia is not in any doubt.

    You wrote: My question is, how were these various dates determined?

    Conclusive evidence for the date of both the start and end of Artaxerxes’ rule exists in astronomical information found on a number of tablets dated to his reign. One such text is the astronomical "diary" "VAT 5047," which is clearly dated to the 11th year of Artaxerxes. Although the text is damaged, it preserves information about two lunar positions relative to planets and the positions of Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. This information is sufficient to clearly identify the date of the text as 454 BC. As this was the "11th year" of Artaxerxes, his "20th year," referred to by Nehemiah, must have been 445/44 BC and his "25th year," referred to by Josephus, must have been 440/439 BC. (See Sachs/Hunger, Astronomical Diaries and Related Texts from Babylonia, Vol. 1, Wien 1988, pp. 56-59.)

    There are also some tablets dated to the 21st and last year of Xerxes. One of them, BM 32234, which is dated to the 5th month of Xerxes’ 21st year, belongs to the group of astronomical texts called "18-year texts" or "Saros texts." The astronomical information preserved on this tablet fixes it to the year 465 BC. The text includes the following interesting information: "Month V Xerxes was murdered by his son." This text alone shows both that Xerxes ruled for 21 years, but also that his last year was 465 BC, at which time he was succeeded by his son Artaxerxes.

    There are several "Saros texts" of this type covering the reigns of Xerxes and Artaxerxes. The many detailed and dated descriptions of lunar eclipses from different years of their reigns establish the chronology of this period to be what historians refer to as an "absolute chronology." In other words, there exists absolutely no doubt about these dates.

    Two other astronomical tablets from the reigns of Xerxes and Artaxerxes, BM 45674 and BM 32299, contain dated observations of the planet Venus. These observations also add to the "absoluteness" of the chronology of this period.

    Thus we have numerous astronomical observations dated to different parts of the reigns of Xerxes and Axtaxerxes preserved on cuneiform tablets. In many cases, only one or two of these observations would suffice to establish the beginning and end of their reigns. The total number of astronomical observations dated to their reigns, however, are 40 or more. It is impossible, therefore, to change their reigns even one year!

    I hope this answered your question.

    I've answered your question quite thoroughly. I hope you will be as thorough in answering mine.

    You wrote: I don't claim to unseal anything for anybody.

    Let me guess. God does the unsealing, right? Do you claim to be a prophet?
     
  8. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Parosia70

    You wrote: * What happened in 26 AD?

    Nothing significant I know of.

    Luke 3:1 tells us that "In the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar" John was actively baptizing people. By this dating Luke is most likely indicating that it was then that John baptized Jesus.

    Thanks to the writing of Tacitus, Suetonius, and others, the reign of Tiberius Caesar was one of most heavily documented in ancient history. Because of this fact any history book can now tell you with absolute certainty that Augustus died in August of AD 14. And that Tiberius then succeeded him as Emperor of Rome. Historians also tell us that Rome then used the "accession year" system of reckoning when they enumerated the years of the reigns of their Emperors. In this system of reckoning the first full calendar year of an Emperor's rule was counted as his "first year" of rule. (The partial calendar year in which he first began his rule was counted as part of his predecessor's last year of rule.) With these things in mind, the "1st year of Tiberius Caesar " began on January 1, AD 15. And "the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar" (Luke 3:1) began on January 1, AD 29.

    So, I must now ask you what you asked us earlier, "What happened in 26 AD?"
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    aChristian, It appears you are far more knowledgable about ancient dates than I, so I will conceed to your timetable.

    I did not author the 26AD assertion, As I stated in the post, I was merely pasting a timetable from a link previously posted.

    It seems we agree on the most important aspect of this topic: That the 70th week was fulfilled when the Gospel was finally and forever freed to go to the Gentiles.

    To me, if my dating is off by a few years here or there, it is of little consiquence to my belief that the events themselves have been fulfilled. However, If i was off by a few thousand years, I'd understand if you were concerned!

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  10. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    P70,

    You wrote: It seems we agree on the most important aspect of this topic: That the 70th week was fulfilled when the Gospel was finally and forever freed to go to the Gentiles.
    To me, if my dating is off by a few years here or there, it is of little consequence to my belief that the events themselves have been fulfilled.

    The reason I was hard on you is that sharing the interpretation that you just shared may end up causing someone to believe that Jesus was not the Christ. Because that interpretation says that the Messiah would appear in AD 26. But Luke 3:1 makes it clear that Jesus could not have been baptized by John any earlier than "the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar." And any encyclopedia or dictionary containing a biographical section clearly tells us that Tiberius first began ruling Rome in AD 14. That means his "15th year" as Caesar could not have come before AD 28. (It was actually AD 29 because Rome used the "accession year" system of reckoning.)

    I thought you might want to know that the interpretation that you seemed to be promoting was clearly an incorrect one because it is historically inaccurate. Whoever dreamed it up was either not wearing his glasses when reading the dates of Tiberius' reign or they made a mistake in their arithmetic.

    I also wanted to remind you that the interpretation I presented here to begin with fits the facts of history perfectly. In Artaxerxes' 20th year (445) he authorized Nehemiah to return to Jerusalem for the purpose of rebuilding it. According to Josephus Nehemiah first went to Babylon to recruit help, raise funds, and secure materials for the rebuilding project. Josephus says he then arrived in Jerusalem and gave the word to begin rebuilding it in Artaxerxes' 25th year (440). "69 weeks" (483 lunar years) later brings us to AD 29, "the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar." "1 week" (7 lunar years) later brings us to AD 36. The middle of the "70th week" would then be 33 AD, at which time Christ was crucified.

    Why share an interpretation that contradicts the facts of history when you now have one that fits those facts?

    Your brother in Christ,

    Mike
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    aChristian:
    I claim to be a flea.

    parousia70:
    Why do you believe the Gentiles did not receive the gospel until 7 years after Jesus' baptism?

    Where did Jesus "confirm the covenant with many for one week?" (Daniel 9:27) Where does he even mention the new covenant until the night before his death? And wasn't the new covenant not confirmed -- indeed "of no strength at all" -- until his blood was actually shed? "He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" (Hebrews 9:15-17).

    And where did he confirm the covenant for only 7 years? Isn't the new covenant an "everlasting covenant?" (Hebrews 13:20)

    aChristian:
    Note that the scripture shows no such gap of years between Artaxerxes' 20th year and Nehemiah's arriving in Jerusalem as its governor: "In the twentieth year of Artaxerxes... I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it. And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time. Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah; And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me. Then I came to the governors beyond the river, and gave them the king's letters. Now the king had sent captains of the army and horsemen with me. When Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, heard of it, it grieved them exceedingly that there was come a man to seek the welfare of the children of Israel. So I came to Jerusalem" (Nehemiah 2:1, 5-11). "Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even unto the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that is, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor" (Nehemiah 5:14).

    If Artaxerxes began reigning in 465 BC, then his 20th year (Nehemiah 2:1) was 445 BC. If Christ had to come 69 x 7, or 483, years later, then Christ should have come in 38 AD.

    If Tiberius began reigning in 14 AD, then his 15th year (Luke 3:1) was 29 AD. Therefore the interpretation of Daniel 9:25 as a reference to the baptism of Jesus 483 years after the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem is off by 9 years.

    483 Jewish years would still be 483 solar years because "Judaism uses a lunar/solar calendar consisting of months that begin at the new moon. Each year has 12 or 13 months, to keep it in sync with the solar year"
    (From http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=calendar&x=12&y=10 ).

    "In a cycle of nineteen years the third, sixth, eighth, eleventh, fourteenth, seventeenth, and nineteenth are made leap-years with an average length of 384 days, by the addition of a month following the twelfth ('Adar), and usually called We-'Adar (Second Adar). It is plain, therefore, that the Jewish year has long been, and still is, a luni-solar year"
    (From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03166a.htm ).

    Good question.
     
  12. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Postrib,

    First, I want to tell you that I am disappointed in you for not having the courtesy to say "thank you" for the several hours I spent pouring over several of my own reference books, which are not available on line, to provide you with a very thorough answer to your question concerning how historians have established the dates of Artaxerxes reign.

    Next, I want to say that my question to you, "Do you claim to be a prophet?" was a reasonable and a sincere one, based on what you had just been saying about Daniel now being "unsealed" to reveal your apparently brand new and quite unique interpretation of Daniel 9. However, despite the fact that I had just spent several hours researching a subject matter for you, you saw fit to answer my question only with foolish sarcasm, saying, "I claim to be a flea."

    I'll now respond to the information you just provided.

    You asked: Why do you believe the Gentiles did not receive the gospel until 7 years after Jesus' baptism?

    Jesus was baptized in AD 29, "the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar" (Luke 3:1). His ministry is widely believed to have lasted 3 and 1/2 years. He was crucified at Passover in AD 33. During Christ's ministry He and his apostles preached only to the Jews. If you read the book of Acts you will find that for the first few years following Christ's death His apostles continued in that mindset. Finally God told Peter in a vision that He had made all things clean, even the Gentiles whom the Jews had long considered to be spiritually unclean. God told Peter to go to the house of a Roman Centurion named Cornelius and to preach the gospel to him. Peter did so. At that time the Holy Spirit was first poured out on the Gentiles. Peter was so amazed that such a thing could happen that immediately reported his experience to his fellow apostles who were also amazed that such a thing had finally taken place. Previous to this Christians had been "telling the message [of Christ] only to the Jews." (Acts 11:19) I would recommend that you read all of Acts chapters 10 and 11. The book "Behind the Scenes of the New Testament" by Paul Barnett (1990) contains a thorough study of New Testament history. It dates the ministry of Christ as having taken place between "AD 29" and "AD 33." And it dates the events recorded in Acts chapter 10 to "AD 36."

    You asked: Where did Jesus "confirm the covenant with many for one week?" (Daniel 9:27)

    As I mentioned earlier, the word "for" is not a part of the Hebrew text. If you have a Hebrew interlinear you can check it out for yourself. Translators have simply inserted the word "for" in order to create a proper English sentence. However, I believe the context indicates that they should have there inserted the word "after" instead. For when discussing both of the previous "week" groupings (the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks) Daniel was told what would happen at the end of those periods of time. At the end of the first "seven weeks" Jerusalem's rebuilding would be complete. At the end of the next "sixty-two weeks" the Messiah would appear. That being the case, it follows that Daniel was being told what would happen "after" the last "one week," not "for" that last week.

    You asked: And where did he confirm the covenant for [I say "after"] only 7 years? Isn't the new covenant an "everlasting covenant?" (Hebrews 13:20)

    The fact that the benefits of Christ's New Covenant were intended to be offered to people of "many" nations, not just the Jews, was strongly "confirmed" when God poured out His Holy Spirit on non-Jewish people for the first time 3 and 1/2 years after the death of Christ.

    You wrote: ...Josephus says he then arrived in Jerusalem and gave the word to begin rebuilding it in Artaxerxes' 25th year (440)... Note that the scripture shows no such gap of years between Artaxerxes' 20th year and Nehemiah's arriving in Jerusalem as its governor.

    You have overlooked the fact that the verses you quoted tell us that Nehemiah did not go straight from Persia to Jerusalem, but that he first went "to the governors beyond the river." To get from Persia to Jerusalem Nehemiah first had to pass beyond the Euphrates River into and through Babylon (which was then part of the Persian empire) where a great many Jews continued to live despite the fact that Cyrus had issued a decree allowing them to leave Babylon and return to their homeland almost a hundred years earlier. Josephus tells us that Nehemiah first "came to Babylon" to convince "many of his countrymen" to "voluntarily follow him." Josephus says that after doing so Nehemiah "then came to Jerusalem in the twenty and fifth year of the reign of [Arta]xerxes." (Ant. XI, V, 7) I earlier quoted two scholarly references which tell us this scenario appears to be both biblically and historically accurate.

    You quoted Neh. 5:14 which records Nehemiah as having said, "Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even unto the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that is, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor"

    The fact that Nehemiah had been appointed governor of Judah by the king of Persia in Artaxerxes' 20th year in no way indicates that Nehemiah could not have taken 4 and 1/2 years to first secure building materials and then recruit volunteer help before returning to Jerusalem. The fact that Neh. 2:18 tells us that Nehemiah was able to begin his rebuilding work immediately after his arrival shows that he had first obtained the materials, tools and labor that he believed he would need to accomplish his work.

    You wrote: quote: ...(483 lunar years) later brings us to AD 29... 483 Jewish years would still be 483 solar years because "Judaism uses a lunar/solar calendar consisting of months that begin at the new moon. Each year has 12 or 13 months, to keep it in sync with the solar year" ... "In a cycle of nineteen years the third, sixth, eighth, eleventh, fourteenth, seventeenth, and nineteenth are made leap-years with an average length of 384 days, by the addition of a month following the twelfth ('Adar), and usually called We-'Adar (Second Adar). It is plain, therefore, that the Jewish year has long been, and still is, a luni-solar year"

    Where you make your mistake here is by not knowing what is meant by the words, "the Jewish year has long been ... a luni-solar year." According to "Handbook of Biblical Chronology" by Jack Finegan, it was not until "the fourth century BC" that "fixed points were established for these seven intercalations, and the nineteen year cycle was fully standardized."

    Daniel lived two hundred years earlier, in the sixth century BC. At the time of Daniel, both the Jews and the Babylonians (Daniel lived in Babylon at the time the "Seventy Weeks" prophecy was written) used a lunar calendar which was adjusted to keep in sync with the solar year on a very irregular basis. At times many years passed without any "solar" adjustments being made to their lunar calendars. That being the case, when the "Seventy Weeks" prophecy was written a "year" to Daniel would have been understood to mean a lunar year, and a "week" of years would have been understood to mean seven lunar years.

    With all these things in mind, I believe the interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 which I have here described is most likely the correct one.
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

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    Hello parousia,
    I didn't even go back and read your post, until now that is. And once again, I am in complete disagreement with you my friend. Now I find that I also don't like the way you preterists do your math either, LOL. Although I do like this scripture, but I raise serious question up to your math. The problem is not with your numbers, but the calendar that you preterists use to calculate this equasion. God has never in the past, present or future used the Julian Calendar for the fulfillment of Prophecy. This is a huge error, but I can fix it my friend, but it would do damage to the preterist theory, which is right up my alley, LOL. Lets do the math using God's prophetic calendar of 360 days. The Julian and the Gregorian calendars both used 365 days and a leap year, so the math is simple.

    Your numbers were correct/ 483-458 = 25
    But now lets complete the rest of the workings of this problem. Lets see how many extra days the Julian Calendar added to the 483 prophetic years, and we will add them to 25, which we are in agreement about. 483 x 5.25 = 2535.75
    Now divide 2535.75 by 360 = 7.04375
    25 + 7.04375 = 32.04375 AD, the same exact year that the Lord gave me to work my other thread,"MY DELIVERER IS COMIN'".
    Thanks parousia, this gives me more confidence in the year that I based that thread on. My deliverer really is comin'!!!
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Postrib,
    aChristian did a good job of addressing your above question, and I am studying that response, for it is slightly different from my current understanding which I will lay out for you briefly.

    The 7 year time limit was on the "confirmation" and not the Covenant itself.
    "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.
    "Confirm" , means "strengthen." This says "Covenant." Not treaty. Covenant. What covenant?

    Look at Daniel 9
    Daniel 9:3-4

    Daniel 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

    Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

    Note that Daniel does not say to all Israel. He says to them that love him and that keep his commandments. So again, what covenant? It's a covenant that Jesus merely strengthened.

    Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    It is the above covenant that He gave to Abraham that Jesus "Confirmed" through His earthly ministry and the apostles subsequent exclusive ministry with the "many" Jews who believed on him. This confirmation lasted 7 years, from Christs annointing baptism to the freeing of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

    Jesus strengthened the covenant that God had already made. Those believers in the Old Testament believed that God would do as He promised and provide His salvation, though they knew not the name of Jesus. Those who have believed since Jesus cmbelieved that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection paid the price for their (our) sins. It has always been the same. God has not changed. His mercy and grace has been extended in the same way, most folks, however, saw the physical or fleshly side and not the spiritual side and I must admit that I find it difficult somedays to see the spiritual too. I know we all do. The flesh wars against the Spirit all the time. Jesus confirmed the covenant that God had made with Abraham. In thee shall all nations be blessed. See also Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, and Luke 22:20.

    You correctly cite that the covenant is everlasting, but in the same breath assign and "end time" to that everlasting Covenant!!??

    The Gospel which is "for sinners who dwell on the earth" is eternal.(Rev. 14:6)
    Christ is a preist on behalf of sinners forever, always interceeding on sinners behalf.(Ps. 110:4)

    These verses indicate that that our God chooses to provide the opportunity for sinners on earth to forever enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ.

    There is no "end time" to the "Everlasting new covenant Gospel"

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Thunder, If you examine my post a bit closer, you'll see the "math" I quoted was from a "FUTURIST!!!! (one of your guys) I never claimed to be in full agreement with it.

    How about showing me how my assertion that Christs "cutting off" took place "AFTER" the 69th week had already ended is flawed. I noticed you chose not to dispute that directly. Does that mean you agree? if not, go ahead and use that scripture to show me it dosen't mean what I contend it does.

    Looking ever forward to your reply ;)

    P70
     
  16. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    P70,

    Romans 15:8-12 tells us that the covenant promises which Christ "confirmed" were those God made to the patriarchs concerning the Gentiles.

    There we read:

    For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name." Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people. "And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples. "And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

    Concerning the "many" referred to in Daniel's "70 Weeks" prophecy, it seems quite clear to me that it is referring to the "many" nations God told Abraham he would become the father to. (Gen. 17:4)

    RT,

    There is no such thing as a "prophetic year" of 360 days in the scriptures. That is merely an invention of men based upon a misinterpretation of Rev. 12. I discussed this earlier in this thread. So your predicting Christ's return 2,000 "prophetic years" after his death, which you calculate to be in only two years is pure rubbish. Your 6000 year and 2000 year theory is interesting. But if it is valid I'd be looking skyward in the year 2033 if I were you. (Not a prediction. This is following your very questionable logic and disqualifying the use of "prophetic years" in the calculations you have attached to it.)

    Also Jesus could not have died in AD 32. For Jesus died on Friday Nisan 14. Nisan 14 did not fall on a Friday in AD 32. I recommend an article on "Chronology" in the book "Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels."
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    aChristian:
    It wasn't sarcasm. That's honestly what I call myself.

    How do you know it was years?

    Based on what historical source?

    It doesn't say the building of the wall happens "after" the 7 weeks; the building of the wall is simply mentioned subsequently to both the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks (Daniel 9:25). It says the cutting off of Messiah is "after" only 62 weeks (Daniel 9:26), not 69 weeks. Just as there is no "after" in Daniel 9:25, so there is none in Daniel 9:27. The prophecy is about the 70 weeks, not after the 70 weeks. Why would the cessation of sacrifice be mentioned after the confirmation of the covenant if it actually happened before it: "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease?" (Daniel 9:27)

    Note that Nehemiah 2 doesn't say what Josephus says, nor does Nehemiah 5:14-15, which says Nehemiah had not taken bread "from the people" of Jerusalem since the 20th year of Artaxerxes.

    Things which would not take 5 years to obtain.

    How standardized the adjustments may have become in the 4th century BC does not negate the fact that the Jews have always adjusted their lunar calendar to keep it in step with the solar year in order that their feasts might always remain in their proper seasons:

    "As they were lunar months they formed a mean year of 354 days, a year consequently shorter than the solar year by ten or eleven days. This difference, as can be readily seen, would have, in the course of time, completely disordered the months in relation to the seasons of the year; thus the first month, or Nîsan, (corresponding to the end of March or the beginning of April), in the middle of which the first ripe barley was to be presented to Yahweh in connection with the paschal feast (Ex. 12:1 sqq., 13:3 sqq; Lev. 23:10-12), might have fallen in the middle of winter; and some other festivals depending likewise on the products of the seasons would also have been materially interfered with"
    (From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03166a.htm ).

    Can you quote your source?

    The 70 weeks prophecy doesn't even mention "years." Even if it did, 490 years would still be 490 solar years because of the necessary solar adjustments.

    The 70 weeks prophecy doesn't mention a week of years.

    parousia70
    What is your source for believing the gospel did not reach the Gentiles until 7 years after Jesus' baptism? How did Jesus confirm the gospel for only 7 years? Did he stop confirming it at some point?

    An end time to this world, not the covenant.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Postrib, quickly, to my statement:
    "...You correctly cite that the covenant is everlasting, but in the same breath assign and "end time" to that everlasting Covenant..."

    You responded:

    But the Everlasting New Covenant Gospel is soley, exclusively and entirely for sinners who dwell on the earth. It has no other purpose but to be preached to sinners who dwell on earth. (Rev 14:6)

    The moment sinners cease to dwell on the earth, the Everlasting New Covenant Gospel becomes obsolete.

    How do you reconcile this?
     
  19. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    We will abide in the new covenant forever (Hebrews 13:20, Ezekiel 37:26).
     
  20. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Postrib,

    You wrote: I claim to be a flea. ... That's honestly what I call myself.

    I will resist the urge to reply to that line.

    You wrote:

    Quote: ...for the first few years following Christ's death His apostles continued in that mindset...

    How do you know it was years?

    Quote: ...it dates the events recorded in Acts chapter 10 to "AD 36."...

    Based on what historical source?

    Quote: ...At times many years passed without any "solar" adjustments being made to their lunar calendars...

    Can you quote your source?

    Quote: ...This confirmation lasted 7 years, from Christ's anointing baptism to the freeing of the Gospel to the Gentiles...

    What is your source for believing the gospel did not reach the Gentiles until 7 years after Jesus' baptism?

    Etc., etc., etc.

    You ask me and others here to answer your many questions, explain various scholarly matters to you and document every thing we say with quotes from either highly respected historians or highly credentialed Bible scholars. I assure you, everything I have written I am able to support in just such a way. The fact is, most of what I have written here I have already supported in that way. But at this point I have to ask myself, why in the world do I want to spend any more of my time discussing this subject matter in a scholarly manner, or in any manner, with you?

    When I have gone to great lengths to provide you with information you requested from me, in great detail with extensive scholarly documentation, you don't even bother to thank me for my help. On top of that, you have added absolutely nothing of value to this conversation. All you have done is present a totally off the wall personal interpretation of scripture, which you have offered absolutely no scholarly support or source references for.

    Your interpretation of Daniel 9 cannot possibly be correct. The idea that the "seventy sevens" refer merely to seventy years is ridiculous. How can a "seven" be a year? I could understand Daniel 9's units of time maybe being years if they were called "seventy twelves" since years have twelve months. But they are not called "twelves," they are called "sevens." Years are not made up of "sevens."

    I have no desire to spend any more of my time discussing the scriptures with a crackpot Bible interpreter who evidently fancies himself to be a prophet of God. Especially one who I believe is a false prophet. When the year 2016, which you have here predicted to be the year Christ returns, passes uneventfully into history that fact will be plain to all. However I don't have to wait fourteen years to know you are a crackpot. I've seen enough of the writings of crackpots to recognize them when I see them. You are a crackpot. And a lazy one at that.

    Find someone else to do your homework.
     
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