• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

"70 Weeks" of lunar years

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by aChristian, Apr 8, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    RT,

    You wrote: Jesus died at 33 [years old].

    The Bible doesn't say this. It tells us he was "about thirty" when he began his ministry. And indications are that his ministry lasted about three years. So, it is assumed he was 33 years old when he died. However, this is only an assumption. And one I can show to be wrong from the scriptures alone.

    However, when you say God put the date 32 in your hands i have to ask myself who am I to argue with God. In other words, God does not lie. So, if you are really convinced that your present understandings on this and other matters have been given to you by God, there is little point in me, a mere man, telling you anything different.

    So, if Jesus was 33 when he died, and if he died in AD 32, then I guess you believe he was born in 2 BC.

    If you are really interested in discussing this area of Bible chronology, the date of Christ's birth, I'd be glad to discuss it with you. I've studied this subject matter extensively.

    By the way, one thing which is necessary to understand in order to accurately determine the date of Christ's birth is why John the baptist was called "Elijah". What did John have in common with Elijah? What did just Elijah and John do, that no other prophets did? And how does this fact help us in determining the time of Christ's birth?
     
  2. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Looking forward to the answers to these questions aChristian :) Thanks for sharing your depth of knowledge on this thread.


    Regards
     
  3. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    RT,

    You wrote: Israel is our measuring stick for the End Times, and all the signs that Jesus gave us are happening right now.

    I would like to see you support these assertions with evidence. For instance, the New Testament tells us that Christians are now "the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:16) And it tells us that in the Christian age, "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is circumsision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumsision is that which is of the heart by the Spirit." (Rom. 2:28,29) These things being so, why do you believe that end tome prophecies referring to Israel may not really be referring to Christians, "the Israel of God"? If this is so, then events in the Middle East may have nothing to do with any bible prophecy.

    Those who believe we are now living very close to the time of Christ's return say that crime, wars, contagious disease, earthquakes, famine and the like are signs that Christ will soon return and that these things are now much worse than in past generations. They say this proves we are living in the last generation before Christ's return. However, I believe that the facts show that this is a misunderstanding of scripture.

    Read Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 carefully and you will find what Jesus was really saying. His point was that such conditions would exist all the way up to the time of his return and would not be signs of his return at all. He warned his disciples that they should not be worried by such things. He said, "These things must take place but the end will not come right away." (Luke 21:9) He compared the difficult times to come to "birth pains." (Mt. 24:8) For just as a woman must often undergo a long painful period of time before she finally gives birth, so Jesus indicated that our world had much pain to endure before he would finally return. To support their claim that the present conditions on earth prove we are living close to the time of Christ's return many such interpreters of scripture have often shamelessly played with crime, war, disease and earthquake statistics in an attempt to prove their contentions. The truth is, however, in our time none of these problems has gotten worse and most have gotten much better compared to past generations. I believe that an objective study of scripture and history shows this to be the case.
     
  4. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Phoenix,

    I had hoped to hear RT's answer to these questions. But I really didn't expect to. for there is only one answer to them. And anyone who believes that Jesus was born in 2 BC does not know them. They can, however, be found through a study of the Bible, history books and Bible commentaries. One big problem I have found with many self proclaimed "end time" prophets is that they often sit and wait for God to directly put understandings of the scriptures into their heads rather than do the work which is often necessary to really understand the Bible.

    You will find the answers to the questions I asked about John the baptist and Elijah in an article I wrote on the time of Christ's birth. It is too long to post in this reply, so I have strated a new thread entitled, "John, Elijah and the time of Christ's birth".
     
  5. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    stkeokee:
    I'm saying that's what I believe.

    aChristian:
    I believe Daniel 9 prophesies both the coming of a false Messiah after 62 years and Christ's second coming after 69 years.

    The New Testament doesn't refer anywhere to Daniel 9 as a proof text that Jesus was the Messiah. Is the New Testament then insufficient to bring Jews to Christ?
     
  6. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Postrib wrote: The New Testament doesn't refer anywhere to Daniel 9 as a proof text that Jesus was the Messiah.

    Jesus indicated that Daniel 9:27's "abomination of desolation" referred to Rome's armies which would desolate the city of Jerusalem and its Temple in AD 70. (Compare Mark 13:14 to Luke 21:20.) Since Christ himself showed us that the last part of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy referred to events that took place in AD 70, is it any wonder that virtually all Bible scholars understand that verses 24-26 refer to earlier events?

    Postrib asked: Is the New Testament then insufficient to bring Jews to Christ?

    Yes, quite often it is. Unless Christians cross reference it's contents to passages in the Old Testament.

    I suppose he meant to ask, "Don't we have enough proof texts, without using Daniel 9, to bring Jews to Christ?"

    To which I reply, I believe the more Old Testament proof texts we are able to present that Jesus was the Christ, the more Jewish converts to Christianity we will see. With that in mind, why would any Christian want to dream up some strange interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 which absolutely negates its use in helping to bring people to Christ?
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Hello aChristian,
    We have way too many differences in what we believe. It's like comparing apples to oranges. I would have to go way back to the beginning of everything I believe to get you to understand my position. That would go way outside the lines of your thread here, so I will just drop everything, and leave here with us disagreeing. That's better than arguing, and at this point, it's the best offer I have. See ya
     
  8. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    RT,

    Don't worry about going outside the lines of this thread. I don't mind. Or you can E mail me privately if you would rather.

    You have stated that "[Physical] Israel is our measuring stick for the End Times, and all the signs that Jesus gave us are happening right now."

    I took issue with those statements. I would very much like to read a response to what I had to say on your supposed "End Time signs."

    "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Peter 3:15)
     
  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    I've been wondering what your hope is aChristian ? Clearly from the time you've been posting on this thread your knowledge of both history and scripture is apparent. You'd have to be blind not to have noticed that you are very well studied before revealing that you are a historian and a scholar on these subjects. Does history suggest that the events of the end-times in the Bible have already occured or do you believe there will be a second coming ?

    If you would prefer to answer through email i would be happy to provide you with an address, send me a private message if so.

    Regards and thank you again for sharing your knowledge with us.
     
  10. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Phoenix,

    You asked for my opinion on a couple of things. You asked, "Does history suggest that the events of the end-times in the Bible have already occurred or do you believe there will be a second coming?"

    Almost everything that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, all the things which are commonly said to prove that we are living in the "end times" such as wars, disease, famines, false Christs, persecution of Christians and earthquakes, all took place prior to Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70 and have taken place in every generation since. Some generations have experienced much more of these things than we are now experiencing. The fact is, our generation probably has far fewer wars, famines and contagious diseases than at any time in history. (That's why both human life expectancy and the earth's population have greatly increased in recent years.) Earthquakes have been constant throughout earth's history. Our generation's experience with them has been no worse than in past generations.

    I believe in Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, that Jesus was actually saying the opposite of what many tell us he was saying. I believe he was saying that such things should not be taken as signs of his imminent return but should just be understood as the difficult times that mankind, and Christians in particular would experience, in the years before the destruction of Jerusalem and also in all the years prior to his second coming.

    In those passages Jesus was mainly answering his apostles' questions about when Jerusalem was going to be destroyed. Remember, he had just told them of Jerusalem's impending destruction (Matt. 24:1,2) when they asked him, "When will this happen?" (Matt. 24:3) The end of the Jewish age is what they were mainly concerned with and that is what Jesus mainly dealt with in his answer. In effect he told them, "There are going to be a lot of tough times ahead. Don't let them worry you. Then Jerusalem is going to be surrounded by Roman armies. When you see that happen, flee the city. Because the siege of the city will be cut short temporarily giving you a chance to get out. Then Jerusalem is going to be subjected to a tribulation like no city has ever been subjected to before."

    But the disciples also asked Jesus another question. They asked him, "What will be the sign of your coming?" They asked for one sign. They didn't ask for "signs" plural. However, many Christians today point to all kinds of "signs" that Christ supposedly gave and others that they dream up on their own, usually involving the modern day nation of Israel and a supposed peace treaty which they say the Antichrist is going to make with somebody or other. They get most of this from an imaginative interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 which disconnects that prophecy's 70th week from its previous 69 weeks and transports it into the future.

    The fact is, Christ's disciples asked him for one sign of his coming and he gave them one sign. Christ said "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky." (Matt. 24:30) What will this sign be? He didn't exactly say. However, in the parallel passage of Luke 21:25 he said, "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars." This seems to indicate that "the sign of the Son of Man" which Jesus said would "appear in the sky" may involve astronomical observations which in some way identify Jesus Christ as the Creator of the universe. I have my own ideas about this. But that's another long story. So I wont go into it now. However, it seems clear to me that any sign that Christ's return is near will not appear on earth, in Israel or elsewhere. I believe that "the sign of the Son of man will appear in the sky."

    I am not a Preterist, at least not by any means a "full Preterist." (Those folks believe that all prophecy was written and fulfilled by AD 70. They believe the only "return of Christ" that will ever take place took place when Christ "returned" in power to execute judgment upon Jerusalem through the armies of Rome. They believe the first resurrection began taking place at that time. And they believe that we will all experience Christ's "return" in a personal way following our deaths when we all meet our Maker.)

    I believe in much the same way that most other Christians here do. I believe Christ will soon return to "rapture" his church and judge this world. Unlike the Preterists, I believe the book of Revelation was written after AD 70, and remains to be fulfilled for the most part. I just don't believe that many of the scriptures which some Christians understand as applying to "the time of the end" were meant to be understood in that way.
     
  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Thanks for the answer. For myself, i'm really a beginner at this stuff. I'm reading and learning and beginning to form an opinion or two, but in this setting i consider myself very much the student. In my study Bible in the description of the setting of Revelation it goes something like, people have many different beliefs about the fulfillment of Revelation, futurists, idealists, preterists , historists all believe the scripture was realized or will be realized in different ways, most likely it will be a combination of all opinions. So in others words, who knows. I always get real skeptical when people say, the Holy Spirit told me this, or i had a vision or whatever. I see God as a great mystery, how can we with our limited minds understand Gods nature ? Omnipresent, omnipotent, can be anywhere and everywhere at the same, that within me resides the soul of a spirit what will be united with Him again. I dont understand that, it's beyond me. Of course we can have an understanding of parts of this mystery through our Bibles but as i said it's way beyond my comprehension. So for this part of my journey into a better understanding of scripture, i tend to defer to those i see as having an expert opinion; who've studied and researched doctrine and history. Like everything else, there are thousands claiming to be experts, maybe a hundred or less actually know what they are talking about. But, that's just the way i see it and like anything else is subject to change.

    Thanks again aChristian, i look forward to reading you and chatting with you as time goes on.
     
  12. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Phoenix,

    For the reasons you stated I am always careful to say my opinions on such things are simply my opinions and nothing more. They are no more valid or valuable than those of other Christians. At least those whose opinions do not clearly conflict with either scripture or with historical realities.

    You wrote: I always get real skeptical when people say, the Holy Spirit told me this, or i had a vision or whatever.

    You are of course wise to do so, "because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 Jn. 4:1)

    I posted a somewhat long piece a couple weeks ago on the apologetics round table board, entitled "Evidence of the Christian God." Kind of controversial stuff. I took a little heat for it. It's probably buried there several pages back by now. Did you read it? Any feedback from you would be appreciated, as I'm still working on the subject matter. Thanks.

    Mike
     
  13. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Yes Mike i did read through the thread. Honestly, i thought it was well presented but went a bit over my head. I probably had the deer caught in the headlights :eek: look when i was reading it. Interesting subject nonetheless, thanks for directing me to it.
     
  14. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    I believe Luke 21:24 refers to the same treading down of Jerusalem as Revelation 11:2, which was not fulfilled by the Roman siege of Jerusalem, for John didn't prophesy Revelation 11 until more than 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, nor can a surrounding of a city's walls and a treading under foot of a city be equated, nor did 2 Thessalonians 2:4 or such events as described in great detail in Revelation 11 and Revelation 13 occur during the Roman siege.

    I don't believe he did. I believe the Antichrist will sit in a rebuilt Jewish temple and proclaim himself God: "And that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate... And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished" (Daniel 11:31, 36). "Ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)" (Matthew 24:15).

    Note again that the New Testament doesn't refer anywhere to Daniel 9 as a proof text that Jesus was the Messiah.

    Or an interpretation unsaved Jews see as not possible because of their luni/solar calendar presented as a "proof" could drive them away from wanting to hear any more "proofs."
     
  15. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Postrib,

    You wrote: I believe Luke 21:24 refers to the same treading down of Jerusalem as Revelation 11:2.

    So do a lot of preterists. they say that revelation was written before AD 70 and that both of these passages refer to events which took place in AD 70. I believe Luke 21:24 referred to events which would befall physical Jerusalem and that Rev. 11:2 refers to events that will befall spiritual Jerusalem. I believe that the judgment that came upon physical Jerusalem in AD 70 was meant to prefigure a judgment that will come upon spiritual Jerusalem three and a half years before Christ's return. That is why the two texts have so much in common.

    You wrote: nor can a surrounding of a city's walls and a treading under foot of a city be equated

    Jerusalem's walls were first surrounded by Roman armies in AD 66. The city was then trampled under foot for three and a half years. However, as I have said, I don't believe the Bible exactly "equates" the trampling under foot which is spoken of in Luke 21:24 with that which is spoken of in Rev. 11:2. I simply believe the AD 66 to AD 70 events were meant to prefigure the AD _ _ _ _ to AD _ _ _ _ events.

    You wrote: nor did 2 Thessalonians 2:4 or such events as described in great detail in Revelation 11 and Revelation 13 occur during the Roman siege.

    Agreed.

    I wrote: Christ himself showed us that the last part of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy referred to events that took place in AD 70.

    You responded: I don't believe he did.

    You are entitled to your opinion. However, it is an opinion shared by no Christian Bible scholar I know of. All cross reference Bibles connect Luke 21:20 with Mark 13:14 and Mark 13:14 with Daniel 9:27.

    I agree with you that Daniel's words "the abomination which causes desolation" refers to the antichrist. However, the antichrist was prefigured by General Titus who led Rome's armies as they desolated Jerusalem.

    The last half of Daniel 9:27 in the NIV reads as follows: "And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

    Titus set up his armies which would soon destroy Jerusalem and its temple just outside that walled city, on its wing so to speak. Titus, became Emperor in 79 AD. Within months Mount Vesuvius erupted burying Pompeii. The following year, 80 AD, a fire destroyed much of Rome. Titus uttering "the fire has ruined me" was forced to sell or strip all of his imperial estates to hasten Rome's recovery. Then, in the fire's wake, one of the worst plagues on record descended upon Italy. Finally, on September 1, 81 AD, for reasons unknown, Titus fell painfully ill and died only two years after gaining Rome's throne. as prophesied, the abomination who caused the desolation of Jerusalem was himself made desolate.

    You wrote: Note again that the New Testament doesn't refer anywhere to Daniel 9 as a proof text that Jesus was the Messiah.

    OK, Postrib, whatever you say. However, as I have pointed out, virtually all Bible scholars understand that Jesus Himself applied the "70 Weeks" prophecy to events which reached their climax in AD 70.

    You wrote: an interpretation unsaved Jews see as not possible because of their luni/solar calendar presented as a "proof" could drive them away from wanting to hear any more "proofs."

    As I have said before, most Jewish years are now and always have been lunar years containing 354 days. (Only seven of nineteen years, about one in three, had an extra month added to them.) That being the case, a "year" to the Jews has always primarily referred to a period of 354 days. Thus Daniel's "seventy sevens" equal 490. But a reader is left to ask himself, 490 what? If he answers "490 years" and thinks of a year in its most frequent form, 354 days, he must certainly then consider the possibility that Daniel's prophecy may have been referring to 490 periods of 354 days.

    Unless, of course, he considers the possibility that when Daniel used the word '"weeks" or "sevens" in this prophecy he was using that word to refer to years, as you believe he was. But I doubt that is likely to happen. For, as you know, that definition of the Hebrew word for "week" or "seven" does not appear in any Hebrew dictionary.

    Postrib, I know you like your interpretation of Daniel's "70 Weeks" prophecy. But since it is so absolutely unique, since no one has ever thought of anything like it before ("sevens" meaning years), don't you think there might be a good reason that they have not?
     
  16. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    From what date to what date did the siege outside the city's walls last?

    Then from what date to what date was the city trampled under foot?

    Do you equate a siege without a city's walls with the trampling of a city underfoot?

    How do you distinguish between the temple, the altar, the court that is without the temple, and the holy city, in your interpretation of Revelation 11:1-2?

    How was 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and Daniel 11:31, 36 (compare Matthew 24:15) prefigured in AD 66 to AD 70?

    But unbelieving Jews would know that such a thing is impossible; 490 Jewish years would still be 490 solar years because "Judaism uses a lunar/solar calendar consisting of months that begin at the new moon. Each year has 12 or 13 months, to keep it in sync with the solar year"
    (From http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=calendar&x=12&y=10 ).

    What is a Hebrew dictionary's definition of shabuwa? On what Hebrew word is shabuwa based?

    "The words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Daniel 12:9).
     
  17. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Postrib,

    You asked: From what date to what date did the siege outside the city's walls last? ...Then from what date to what date was the city trampled under foot?

    If you really want to know, look it up. As I said before, I'm no longer going to do your homework for you.

    You asked: Do you equate a siege without a city's walls with the trampling of a city underfoot?

    The city had walls. Maybe you are asking if I equate the siege outside of the city's walls with the beginning of the trampling. Yes, I do. The residents of Jerusalem lived in fear and danger of what was soon to come upon them from that time forward.

    You asked: How do you distinguish between the temple, the altar, the court that is without the temple, and the holy city, in your interpretation of Revelation 11:1-2?

    Well, we have not discussed my interpretation of Rev. 11:1,2. And I doubt you would be interested in it since I am sure you already have your own that you are quite happy with. Like yours, mine is futurist. I do not believe Rev. 11 describes events that happened before AD 70, as do the preterists.

    You wrote: How was 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and Daniel 11:31, 36 (compare Matthew 24:15) prefigured in AD 66 to AD 70?

    I didn't say they did.

    You wrote: But unbelieving Jews would know that such a thing is impossible;

    I have discussed my understanding of the "70 Weeks" with several unbelieving Jews. None have said it was impossible.

    You wrote: 490 Jewish years would still be 490 solar years because "Judaism uses a lunar/solar calendar

    Most Jewish years have 354 days. Thus a 354 day year is an "ordinary" Jewish year. That this prophecy may be based on multiples of an ordinary Jewish year has seemed reasonable to many people for nearly 2,000 years now.

    You wrote: What is a Hebrew dictionary's definition of shabuwa?

    "A period of seven, a week."

    You wrote: On what Hebrew word is shabuwa based?

    Sheba' - which has only one meaning, the number "seven."

    I wrote: ...no one has ever thought of anything like it before ("sevens" meaning years), don't you think there might be a good reason that they have not?...

    You responded: "The words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Daniel 12:9).

    To accept that explanation I would have to believe that we are now living in the time of the end and that God has now chosen to unseal the true meaning of this prophecy, in a way that flat out contradicts the meaning of the Hebrew words He chose to use in it, and that He has chosen to reveal this prophecy's true meaning only to you. For no one else believes anything like it. "70 sevens mean 70 years. And Christ will return 69 years after the establishment of modern Israel."

    I'll be interested in reading the new interpretation you come up with 14 years from now.

    Mike
     
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    But their city was not being trampled under foot. The enemy was still outside its walls.

    I'm interested in how you distinguish between the temple, the altar, the court that is without the temple, and the holy city.

    Do you agree then that "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15) in Daniel 11:31, 36 was not prefigured in AD 66 to AD 70?

    An "ordinary" period 490 Jewish years long would equal 490 solar years because the feasts during that period would have to fall in their proper seasons:

    "As they were lunar months they formed a mean year of 354 days, a year consequently shorter than the solar year by ten or eleven days. This difference, as can be readily seen, would have, in the course of time, completely disordered the months in relation to the seasons of the year; thus the first month, or Nîsan, (corresponding to the end of March or the beginning of April), in the middle of which the first ripe barley was to be presented to Yahweh in connection with the paschal feast (Ex. 12:1 sqq., 13:3 sqq; Lev. 23:10-12), might have fallen in the middle of winter; and some other festivals depending likewise on the products of the seasons would also have been materially interfered with" (From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03166a.htm ).

    Can you quote the entire entries under both words, and indicate your source? Do all Hebrew dictionaries say the same thing? What about Strong's Hebrew dictionary?

    Aren't we?

    How does it contradict them?

    How do you know He has chosen to reveal this prophecy's true meaning only to me, or that no one else believes anything like it?

    Does something have to be believed in order to be revealed?
     
  19. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Postrib,

    I'm sure you are a nice guy and a good Christian. But I see little point in discussing most of these things with you. You have already reached strongly held conclusions on all of or at least most of these matters. You may even be convinced you are a special prophet of God. Besides, these things are not really worth arguing about. I don't believe that how we understand Daniel and Revelation will affect our salvation. So I am going to skip over much of what you wrote. Some of which we have argued before.

    You asked: Do you agree then that "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15) in Daniel 11:31, 36 ...

    I believe Jesus was referring to the abomination Daniel spoke of in Daniel 9:27, not to the one Daniel referred to in Dan. 11. I believe Daniel referred to two different "abominations."

    I believe the "abomination" spoken of in Daniel 11 was the one that desolated the Jewish religion and its temple between the years 168 and 165 BC.

    The following information can be easily obtained by reading a few Jewish history books and Bible commentaries.

    In 174 BC Jason, the brother of High Priest Onias III, secured the High Priesthood for himself by bribing Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes. Jason's actions thereafter, such as promoting Jewish participation in athletic competitions dedicated to the Greek god Hercules and sending silver from the temple treasury to be sacrificed to that false god, caused the temple priests to neglect the sacrifices which were required by Jewish law. History records the fact that this corrupted Jewish worship, which began with the appointment of Jason as High Priest, was not completely cleansed from the temple until mid December of 168 BC when it was forcefully removed by the military forces of the king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes, with the very willing and active assistance of Jason’s successor as High Priest, Menelaus.

    Though history does not record the exact month and day of Jason's appointment as High Priest in 174 BC, I believe Daniel's prophesies and Jewish history combine to tell us that his appointment took place 2,300 days before the temple was cleansed of corrupted Jewish worship in mid December of 168 BC.

    Some 400 years earlier Daniel had prophesied, "After 2,300 days (or evenings and mornings) the sanctuary will be cleansed." (Dan. 8:14 KJV) Many Bible commentators believe that the "evenings and mornings” here spoken of refer to the evening and morning sacrifices which began to be neglected after the appointment of Jason as High Priest.
    In 171 BC, Menelaus, a Jew not born of the line of Aaron, managed to have himself appointed as High Priest in place of Jason by offering Antiochus a larger bribe than Jason had previously paid. Since Menelaus was not of the line of Aaron, in fact not even a Levite, his being set up as High Priest was no doubt "an abomination" to God. And since he was not permitted by Jewish law, as were other High Priests, to "daily offer up sacrifices, first for their own sins and then the sins of the people" (Heb. 7:27), it is understood that "the daily sacrifice" was then "abolished" in God's eyes.

    Though history does not record the exact month and day of Menelaus' appointment as High Priest in 171 BC, I believe Daniel's prophesies and Jewish history combine to tell us that 1,290 days passed between the time Menelaus became High Priest and the time he finished assisting Antiochus Epiphanes in bringing about the total "desolation" of the Jewish religion.

    Some 400 years earlier Daniel had prophesied, "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up there will be 1,290 days." (Dan. 12:11)

    History tells us that it was in mid December of 168 BC that Jerusalem's Temple was completely cleansed of corrupted Jewish worship brought about by the actions of Jason and Menelaus. This cleansing took place when Antiochus Epiphenes completely outlawed all practices of the Jewish religion. Jewish history indicates that some 2,300 days of corrupted Jewish worship then came to an end, a corruption which began with the appointment of High Priest Jason in 174 BC. Jewish history also indicates that some 1,290 days had also then passed since Menelaus, the "abomination" who had "abolished the daily sacrifice" and caused the "desolation" of the Jewish religion, had first been "set up" as High Priest.

    Three years later, in mid December of 165 BC, the revolt of the Maccabees finally reestablished undefiled Jewish worship in Jerusalem's temple. In the year 164 BC Antiochus Epiphanes died and was succeeded by his son, Antiochus Eupator. Later that same year Antiochus Eupator made a peace treaty with the Jews which guaranteed them religious freedom.

    Though history does not record the exact month and day that Eupator made that peace treaty with the Jews, I believe Daniel's prophesies and Jewish history combine to tell us that this peace treaty was made 1335 days after Antiochus Epiphanes, with the assistance of High Priest Menelaus, completely cleansed Jerusalem's Temple of all corrupted Jewish worship.

    I believe these are the events and the "abomination that causes desolation" which Daniel prophesied of in Dan. 11 and 12. I believe that, like the Roman armies led by General Titus in AD 66 - 70 acted as the abomination which caused the desolation of Jerusalem and the Jewish religion spoken of in Dan. 9:27, Antiochus Epiphanes with the assistance of High Priest Menelaus in 168 - 165 BC acted as the abomination which caused the desolation of the Jewish religion spoken of in Daniel 11. I believe both of these abominations were meant by God to prefigure a greater abomination which is yet to come, an abomination who will cause a similar desolation to come upon Christianity in the few years before Christ returns.

    You wrote: Can you quote the entire entries under both words, and indicate your source? Do all Hebrew dictionaries say the same thing?

    Again, I'll let you do some of your own homework.

    You asked: What about Strong's Hebrew dictionary?

    I answered that question in another "70 weeks" thread on this board.

    Mike
     
  20. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Hi aChristian,

    That prophecy about Antiochus, the 1290 days, and 1335 days always amazes me! It's incredible how accurate the Word of God is, despite what all the critics say.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...