7 Ways to promote gender equality in your church

[Zoii]

At the discretion of the priest. I would think, for Anglicans, usually they would.

Are you sensing the apparent inconsistency? If the example of our ex-PM is regarded as sinful, just as SS relations, what am I to conclude that communion would be given to one but not the other. It appears is not about the sin per se; goodness knows the ex PM caused way more trauma; it's about being gay and does not matter the heart and soul of the person

 

[Paidiske]

I will freely admit that we are not consistent.

However... generally speaking, sin itself is not enough to bar one from communion in the Anglican church. We are more likely to make an issue of something which is a public scandal.

So Barnaby (that's whom you meant, yes?) would have issues, but then, someone in a same-sex marriage might also be perceived as a public scandal. But we wouldn't all agree on that, so... yes, we're inconsistent.

 

[Zoii]

We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.
George Orwell

 

[bekkilyn]

Wouldn't you all agree that so much of the trouble comes from trying to impose on people what they SHOULD be like instead of celebrating (and encouraging) who they actually ARE?

AMEN

I am a woman because my biological body is female, but inside, I'm not a woman (or man). I'm just me. Maybe I just don't comprehend gender very well and I've discussed with transgender people what it is that makes them feel like a "woman" or a "man" since gender seems extremely important to them for some reason, and I've never gotten a satisfactory answer. I simply do not understand at all what makes someone a woman or a man outside of physical biology because other than how people would treat me based on my physical appearance, I'd be the same inside regardless of whether I woke up with a male or female body tomorrow morning. The "me" is the same no matter what is on the outside.

It's also a reason why the complementarian view of scripture makes no sense to me as there is no satisfactory explanation as to what makes someone a male or a female outside of what outside body shape they are wearing, and that's simply not a good excuse for ignoring individual people's spiritual gifts, callings, God-given talents and abilities, etc.

I'm not suggesting everyone is the *same* but boiling everything down to only two categories of "male" and "female" is insufficient. Everyone (as in each individual person) is *unique* and uniquely bears the image of God. The physical body they are wearing is just one of a great many qualities that make up that unique person as a whole.

 

[Paidiske]

That's my take on it too.

 

[Dave-W]

We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.
George Orwell

Larry Norman quoted that:

You say "All men are equal
All men are brothers."
Then why are the rich more equal than others?
Don't ask me for the answers
I've only got one:
That a man leaves his darkness
when he follows the Son.

 

[Dave-W]

and that's simply not a good excuse for ignoring individual people's spiritual gifts, callings, God-given talents and abilities, etc.

I agree on this 100%. It also applies to age, race, economic status and a host of other factors.

It has been my experience (and I see example in the bible as well) that God will often pick a vessel that likely to be rejected to move thru.

 

[Dave-W]

BTW - a week ago our congregation just ordained our first female deacon.

 

[Paidiske]

Look after her, if you can, Dave. It's hard being the first.

 

[Dave-W]

Look after her, if you can, Dave. It's hard being the first.

I will. We really do not know her that well as she serves in other areas of the congregation to my wife and I.

So I guess that would be the first thing.

 

[Zoii]

Larry Norman quoted that:

You say "All men are equal
All men are brothers."
Then why are the rich more equal than others?
Don't ask me for the answers
I've only got one:
That a man leaves his darkness
when he follows the Son.

Mine was from Animal Farm

 

[LoveofTruth]

CONVERSATION STARTERS Share your responses to the following pastoral scenarios:
• You are asked to take the funeral for a person in a same sex marriage

Elders or other should not do this. Instead direct the person who ask to the holy scriptures of truth and show them the dangers of certain activity perhaps 1 Cor 6:9,10 and Romans 1 and leviticus.

There is no scripture that pressed elders to preside over a "funeral service"

• You are asked to baptize a child of same sex parents.

Absolutely not. For a few reasons. First, water baptism is an Old Covenant practice for the Jews (Hebrews 9 about diverse washings etc) who, for a time continued to use it all through Acts and to follow Johns old covenant water baptism as they also continued to go to the temple as believers and sacrifice animals and keep the law and customs of the Jews (Acts 21). But water baptism is also not a saving issue and a child I believe is already saved by the grace of Christ until they have sin revive and they die, then they need to be born again. (Romans 7:9).

Also Jesus blessed the infants that came to him he did not have them water baptized. I accept dedicating a child to God in prayer and as a body. But water baptism, no. And also the issue of same sex marriage would come up in that discussion as well and i would direct them to the Holy scriptures of truth and share the truth to them from many verses such as 1 cor 6:9,10, Romans 1 and Leviticus and Jude etc.

I would do this despite the hatred against me it might bring. I would speak to them in love and grace but I would never shun to speak the truth of God to them.

• Someone you know invites you to attend their same sex wedding ceremony.

I would not go, unless it was outside to preach to the crowd and share the holy scriptures with them such as 1 cor 6:9,10, Romans 1 and Leviticus and Jude, Genesis and Ephesisns 5 etc.

• A parent whose child is marrying their same sex partner asks you for advice.

I would given them the holy scriptures such as 1 cor 6:9,10, Romans 1 and Leviticus and Jude, Genesis and Ephesians 5 etc. In grace and love I would seek to help them to first understand the seriousness of their child's situation and I would also pray with them for their child and hopefully seek to talk to the child if possible.

I would tell them to not budge on their stance from the holy scriptures and let them know that such a marriage is not a marriage before God regardless what the culture of the day says. If they accepted this I would weep with those that weep.

• A church member tells you they have been invited to attend a same sex marriage and they feel anxious about it.

I would confirm their anxiety and exhort them not to go, unless they stand outside and preach and talk to others and share the holy scriptures with them such as 1 cor 6:9,10, Romans 1 and Leviticus and Jude, Genesis and Ephesians 5 etc.

By them not going they protest to the situation and take a stand for truth . It doesn't mean that they should not talk to the ones who claim to be getting married. They should and hopefully they will do so in truth and love and grace and with scripture if possible.

But i would also give them this verse

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret."

and also this section to encourage them to press on in faith and to suffer with Christ.

"1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:"(1 Peter 4:1-4)

• You are asked to participate in a same sex wedding (for example, leading a prayer or a Bible reading).

absolutely not, except to reprove them and preach the truth to them and preach the saving gospel.

and to share the holy scriptures with them such as 1 cor 6:9,10, Romans 1 and Leviticus and Jude, Genesis and Ephesians 5 etc.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."

Yes Jesus went to a wedding and ate with sinners and tax collectors. But we can have no participation or fellowship with them. And such a so called "wedding" makes a mock of the husband and wife as one flesh and the type of Christ and His church. Our participation is only as a light to speak the truth in love, preach and reprove.

• If you decided (see above) to lead a prayer, what would you feel able to pray?

For their repentance and to come to the truth

• Responding to a same sex couple asking you to conduct their wedding ceremony, given that Anglican ministers are not authorized to marry same sex couples.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."

and to share the holy scriptures with them such as 1 cor 6:9,10, Romans 1 and Leviticus and Jude, Genesis and Ephesians 5 etc

• A church member has attended a same sex wedding conducted by a non-Anglican minister of religion. They might be angry that a minister did conduct such a ceremony or they might be angry at you and the Anglican church that you cannot.

I would exhort them to follow after Christ and come out from among them and not to have fellowship in such things. To be a light and avoid all appearance of evil as scripture teaches.

and to share the holy scriptures with them such as 1 cor 6:9,10, Romans 1 and Leviticus and Jude, Genesis and Ephesians 5 etc

 

[Dave-W]

First, water baptism is an Old Covenant practice for the Jews (Hebrews 9 about diverse washings etc)

If that is so, why did the Risen Lord command it in Matt 28?

Also Jesus blessed the infants that came to him he did not have them water baptized.

Did not have to. They were all members in good standing in the Mosaic covenant.

I realize those statements and my replies were off topic in this folder. But let me take it back to on-topic.

IMO the full participation of women in families and churches, including ordinations to local and trans-local leadership church positions; and the whole same sex relationship or marriage issue are completely separate subjects and should not be conflated.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If that is so, why did the Risen Lord command it in Matt 28?

.

the burden of proof is in your words, show me the word "water" in Matthew 28. When Jesus meant water he said so as in Acts 1 about John baptizing (past tense) with water but...

 

[Dave-W]

the burden of proof is in your words, show me the word "water" in Matthew 28. When Jesus meant water he said so as in Acts 1 about John baptizing (past tense) with water but...

Not really. Cultural understanding says that anytime baptism is used without a modifier, it means water.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Not really. Cultural understanding says that anytime baptism is used without a modifier, it means water.

The one saving baptism is into Christ by the Spirit.

All must have this baptism andthis is not water.

1 Corinthians 12 - 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Galatians 3 - 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

“Into Christ” not “into water”

We put in Christ not put on water. Jesus said he would be in us and we in him.

 

[Dave-W]

Again, you are missing the cultural understanding of what is being said.

If someone taught you to interpret scripture in that way, they lied to you and face a severe judgement at the end.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Again, you are missing the cultural understanding of what is being said.

If someone taught you to interpret scripture in that way, they lied to you and face a severe judgement at the end.

The anointing teaches us all things.

Oat of the problem is in your words and of trusting in man's cultures and traditions and rudiments and not the word of God.

The judgement is when men go away from the word and into cultures, rudiments of the world and traditions of men that make the word of no effect.

The Jews were coming out of the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13 KJV) and it was decaying, ready to vanish. But even at the time Hebrews was written it had not fully vanished yet. The early Jewish believers were allowed a "time of reformation" from the old to the new. The diverse washings (baptismos) in the Greek) and canal ordinances were imposed upon them (the Jews) until the time of reformation.

So we see in the book of Acts that the Jewish believers still were struggling and coming out of the old to the new. We se this clearly in Acts all through, we even see thousands of Jewish believers in Acts 21, going into the temple regularly and zealous of the law and the customs and sacrificing animals having vows, and customs of the Jews.

This all ended in 70 AD. Or at least the outward observance did, some 40 Years after Christ death. This may be a sign the 40 Years to come out. But either way. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and he said that Christ sent him NOT to BAPTIZE but to preach the gospel. Showing that water baptism was not part of the gospel of salvation and to make it so would be to make another gospel.Paul defined the saving baptism in the same book of Corinthians 1 Cor 12:13 and he also defined the saving gospel connected to this in 1 Cor 15:1-5. The gospel is clear from Paul's words I remind you of it again,

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"(1 Corinthians 15;1-4 KJV)

Notice, that there is no water baptism added for salvation, or added at all here. No circumcision, no Mosaic law, No Sabbaths, no sacraments, no dispensing sacraments by a priest for salvation, etc etc etc.

To do so is where the real severe judgement may come on judgement day. For to do so would be to make another gospel and then fit into the warning in Galatians 1.

A few more scriptures showing that Paul did not speak the cultures of men, but rather the truth in Christ and the commandments of the Lord. He did not speak the words of men but as it is in truth the word of God that effectually worketh in those that believe.


"37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor 14:37,38 KJV)

1 Thessalonians 2:13
"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."

1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus."(1 Thessalonians 4:1,2 KJV)

"Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."(1 Timothy 2:7 KJV) Paul did not speak the cultures of men, but the truth in Christ.

Part of the confusion of water baptism comes because John was so near to them in his ministry. But even John and Jesus said that they must decrease and John baptized ( past tense) with water. John was Old Covenant and in figures and types. We see a similar figure in the Jordan river of the past when Joshua and the ark and the people crossed over the Jordan. John baptized Jesus to manifest him to Israel.


We also see an interesting verse in 1 Peter 3:21 where Peter says that the saving baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (or in other words it is not an outward washing with water of the body). But the saving baptism is an answer ( inquiry) of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This word "conscience is a very important inward witness here and it shows us what baptism Peter is speaking about. We see this in Hebrews 9,

consider,

"8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[clearly here water baptism or diverse washings and carnal ordinances can not give an answer to an inquiring conscience, they did not know how to be clean and have a GOD conscience. The word conscience meaning with knowledge. They did not have the knowledge of the final work of Christ complete yet as we do. They did not have the full assurance as we now do by the resurrection of Christ] 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings,[this would include baptism and other washings of the old covenant which were shadows and types of the reality] and carnal ordinances, imposed on them [imposed on the JEWS under the covenant]until the time of reformation [until is the key word. these would continue a time until their conscience was clean. It is not safe to go against ones conscience, and if they were in need of understanding this was coming, but until then they were still practicing the law and old testament ordinances as we see them doing all through Acts. [We see Peter in Acts 2 going to the temple, still under the law and old covenant and Jesus said to them that he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear it until the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. Can you imagine Peter getting up and telling all the Jews that the temple was no more and no more sacrifices or Mosaic law requirements for the entire system. He himself did not understand this and to go against your conscience is not safe. So he was allowed for a time to have the gospel of the circumcision to the Jews. But Paul had the gospel of the uncircumcision to the gentiles. The gospel is the same but how it is applied to each group varied for a time until they were in understanding]]....14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience [this is the inward purging and how we have a good conscience. This is having our hearts sprinkled by the blood. This is to be washed from our sins in his own blood. it is through faith in the blood that we have remission of sins] from dead works to serve the living God?"(Hebrews 9:8-10, 14 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Not really. Cultural understanding says that anytime baptism is used without a modifier, it means water.

There are many baptisms in scripture. We even read of the doctrine of baptisms ( plural) in Hebrews 6).

WE read of the OT washings and baptisms immersions for many reasons. We read of Noah's Ark as a type of baptism, we read of the OT saints being baptized unto Moses. We read of Johns water baptism for Israel of repentance (not for salvation). and of Johns water baptism of Jesus to manifest him to Israel. We read of the baptism with the Holy Ghost, we read of the saving baptism by one Spirit into the body of Christ and into Jesus Christ .We read of the baptism of sufferings etc.

The doctrine of baptisms is a long talk.

 

[Dave-W]

The anointing teaches us all things.

If that were true, Paul would not have listed “teacher” as a gift to the Body.