7 Visions of Revelation

[zeke37]

Yes, I believe there is deception and there are deceiving spirits. But as I have maintained all along the casting down, binding, and sealing are all equated with the protection of the church. Satan is limited in what he can do to it, as in the example of Job.

Satan's binding means that he cannot destroy the truth of the Gospel, it will always be there. And there is a big difference between telling a lie, and someone actually believing it. Romans 1:25 covers this: "They have exchanged the truth for a lie." So if someone allows himself to be deceived, it's on him.

We know that the truth of the Gospel will be protected for the 1260 days, as Rev.11 tells us the two witnesses (the church and the Gospel) will prophesy for this entire Gospel/tribulation age. When their testimony is finished they will be overcome by the beast from the bottomless pit--the unbinding of Satan.

i understand relating the "candlesticks" part of the two wintesses to the church
but why are you relating the Gospel to the Olive trees?
is there biblical support, as there is for candlesticks=church, or is it opinion?

Below is the entire post on the matter. Please highlight the part where I stated "all was past from the 15th verse." Correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like your saying that I wrote that the entire part 2 was past.

bro, i was prob being a little petty...i'm sorry
and quite possibly it is just this form of communication
that has us at times misunderstand each others position

imo the A of D is still future to us.
we saw a type with Nebb.
and, we as Christians in general, do not know the details of the 2nd temple's destruction,
including any abomination that may have been done there
i think that just as we all know about Nebb and his type,
we shall also know the anti-type when it happens.
it would be too important to leave up for debate.

i am, however, considering your position.

"Not quite. Jesus here answers 2 questions with 2 parallel timelines--just as he structured Revelation. Part 1 goes from verse 4 through 14--"the end."

What you are describing above are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals (Jesus is the 1st), that's why He says they are only the beginning; then follows a long passage of time indicated by the preaching of the Gospel to all nations--this will take some time, obviously.

Part 2, Verse 15 begins again back at the destruction of the temple, then the start of the tribulation, another long passage of time (the 5th seal: "how long, O Lord until You judge?") indicated here by the many false christs and prophets that arise, then the end of the tribulation and the opening of the 6th seal, which he describes verbatim.

Revelation 6 and Matt 24 are in complete harmony both structurally and thematically, and both pick up where Daniel 9 ended.

although that is not the post i was refering to,
i am in agreement that the structure of Rev6 and Mat24 are similar/same.
what is the first thing that Jesus warns about in Mat24?
Wouldn't that likewise be the first seal?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
​

There is allowed here a future destruction of the bodily temple in the future since the time of the Gentile will mirror the end of the time of the Jews."

the end for both gentile and Jew occurs at the same time.
His future 2nd Coming.
labour pains till then.

Imitation fabric? Imitation of what... real fabric?

Why couldn't I find anything about this being imitation? Could it be that the futurists embellish upon this in order to satisfy their need for the first horseman to be their antichrist?

most futurists do not research the greek word toxon to begin with.
but neither do most others.

"bow"
5115
toxon
toxon
tox'-on
from the base of tiktw - tikto 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow.


this is from the Strong's Concordance.

the rider does not have a weapon, but a bolt of simple fabric.
now, we have already read about what Jesus is covered with in Rev1/4.

Cheap/inexpensive/simple would be in alignment with the humble origins of the Christ child.

i had not considered that before.

I'm no Greek expert so if you can post a link to concordance describing this imitation fabric, I would like to see it.

the above definition is from the Strong's Concordance, from this site
HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version
i am not endorsing the site...just the concordance. great tool.

the wording was my own....
cheap fabric immitation...a knock-off...counterfit.

and that is in harmony with Mat24's first warning by Christ.

The symbolism and context just do not support this. Revelation concerns the entire time between two Advents, so it would necessarily begin with His first coming.

Of course they are different: His two comings are entirely different ventures; differences are to be expected.

i am considering your position.
however, the first thing Christ warns about in Mat24 is false Christs/teachers.

Well, Jesus came, we have earthquakes, wars, disease, famines, etc., but the world has not ended yet. And the 2nd temple has been destroyed, but Jesus has not returned. So, I think it's safe to say that, yes, we are in the long passage of time described in each of the two parts.

i agree.

Gee, I don't know: thrones, reigning with Christ. It's either Heaven or Des Moines.

i was being serious btw.
Jesus is Coming here forever and ever.

heaven destroyed and earth refined....
the eternity is right here.

There are only two groups of people being described here:

1) Those from the tribulation that did not accept the mark.

2) Those of the second resurrection that go to the second death.

Rev 20:5,

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/FONT]"

In the above verse, the first line is referring to the second resurrection and death. The second part of the verse is referring back to the saints being envisioned, that's what this section is about at to whom it was intended.

i think i was refering to the verse before, 20:4.
martyrs
and
those that do not take the mark, who are alive at His Coming.
but my understanding does not negate your position, so it is moot.

i do however view the second resurrection a bit differently than you do.
i believe the first resurrection occures at His 2nd Coming,
and the second resurrection occurs 1000 years later, after the Millennium

Because the first resurrection refers specifically to the second coming and the harvesting of the saints. The second resurrection refers only to those going on to the second death.

but it does not say that specifically.
i think the 1000 years are yet future and for a specific reason,
the firstfruits reign here on earth in a supernatural way,
and refine those that love Jesus but are hypocrites.
and unfortunately that is the majority imo.

after the 1000 years, they are judged, along with all others.
we'll have to leave the verdict to God Himself tho!_

1000 years to refine a fooled Christian? Doesn't say much for the Christian or your supposed teachers.

look around. watch tv. go to various denom'al churches.
see what they teach.

i think they will get the truth on day one of His return
but will they hold it for the 1000 years, however long that is literally?
true refinement, only gained from them realizing their error,
and coming to God through works.

and i am not saying that this is a typical futurist response.

What about the fooled Christians that have died already? When/how do they get refined?

imo, the temptation has not occured yet.
it is specific to the end of the end times, and specific to each of us alive at that time.
God placed us here for this time, to learn what we will during it.
some stay faithfull, some do not.

again, this may not be typical futurist understanding...but...
while i think we agree that there is a false Christianity at work today,
i also think that the end of the end times is when the A of D is fulfilled thorugh those that believe in Christ but are fooled by the end time test/temptation hour..
if we are the temple of God, and Satan comes physically to earth, pretending to be Jesus...
if one worships him in that deceit, then that would fulfill the scriptures.

A pre-trib rapture, then some other removal of saints later. I know some futurists believe this, but I don't know about you specifically.

the two largest divides within futurists are
pre trib gathering to Christ vs a post trib gathering to Christ.
i am post trib, in that the church is not removed from the earth, but remains here through it all,
no matter how long that end of the end times is.

Saints in the NT always refers to Christians, so does Rev.
but ya, the pre trib version is all messed up big time.
your mentioning is but one of many ways.

Where?

that might take a thread of it's own.

I didn't say it was history; I said we are in the long passage of time indicated in both parts of Matt. 24. At least do me the courtesy of reading my replies before disagreeing with them.

i do, but it seems that you have replied to the same question, more than once, and have different replies in each.

we were discussing the "when" of the A of D.
I say future, you say past.
since we understand that, the rest is moot.
my apologies, we ought to do this in the most respectful way we can.

It is my opinion based on the harmony of the parallel visions, consistency of symbolism, multiple witnesses throughout the New Testament.

and i can say the exact same thing about my position.

I think you're forgetting that one of Satan's characteristics is subtlety. And I disagree that the apostate church is when they worship another god. Many "Christians" will hear the words "Depart from me, I never knew you."

true, but why?
i am not saying that this is the only way that Christ will say that to someone, but it certainly is one way.

Revelation and history indicate that the apostate church has been around for at least as long at the Holy Roman Empire.

ahhh. ya i've heard that one before.
as a matter of fact, i grew up RCC.
i'd think that the ratio of who is good vs who is not, is about the same in all of the denom's.
funny thing is, in all my years at church, and in Catholic school,
i never one time saw anybody worship the Pope...
Mary, ya...but not the Pope.

 

[zeke37]

Yes, please find the post you're referring to and show it to me in your reply. If I did in fact write that, it was a mistake and I would need to revise it. But I don't think I did.

in case you read this right after i post it,
i will have to post this first, go and find it
and then edit this post to reflect such.

k found it....

Originally Posted by Warduck

Yes, and they--Michael and his angels--overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb (12:11); it was the crucifixion and resurrection that accomplished this.
​

I addressed this at the top of this post. His binding does not preclude him from having any influence at all, as in the example of Job. Satan's binding is specifically related to the Two Witnesses/Gospel.

i think he is physically bound in heaven today.
i think he is spiritually at work here today.
i think he will be unbound when he is cast out of heaven and here to earth physically for a short time.
Christ returns
then the 1000 years begins when Satan is again bound for that time,
until his release again at the end of that time.
where he for one last time leads those that will not come to God.
but this time he has no beast to work with,
nor does he have his religious false Jesus role to work with
as they are already cast into the lake of fire.

and that is one thing that i have not heard you comment on.
how does your view work with those two being cast in before Satan, in Rev19?
it seems that they are cast in first, then the 1000 years, then Satan is cast in in Rev20.

but upon reading Rev19 and 20 again, i do see your point.
I guess you believe that it is impossible for us alive today to be part of the first ressurrection.

is an excellent example in support of my position. Satan has been bound/restrained; at some point he will be unrestrained, and this will be:

1) The hour when the ten horns turn on the harlot.
2) When the two witnesses are overcome.
3) The "Gog/Magog" war.
4) The final 30 days of Daniel's 1290 days.

These are all the same time period. Then the Second Coming and destruction.

could be...and i had been considering that view for some time.
that hour, when the two witnesses are overcome, is the time that most of us futurists call the tribulation.

but interesting view on the 1290.
what do you do with 1335?

why do you consider Magog to be the same as Gog ?
what does the ma part mean?

 

[vinsight4u]

//

 

[Warduck]

i understand relating the "candlesticks" part of the two wintesses to the church
but why are you relating the Gospel to the Olive trees?
is there biblical support, as there is for candlesticks=church, or is it opinion?

The Gospel is one tree, the church the other. Olive trees because they bear fruit. (olives are, in fact, fruit) One cannot bear fruit without the other. Jesus told us the Gospel would be preached to all nations; this requires the Gospel and someone to preach it.

Matthew 7:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

You'll also notice their special abilities such as shutting Heaven, fire from their mouths, plagues, etc. These are not literal acts, but represent the protection that I've been banging on about coinciding with the limitations put on Satan. They have these abilities until they finish their witness, or are left unprotected for the 3 1/2 days.

bro, i was prob being a little petty...i'm sorry
and quite possibly it is just this form of communication
that has us at times misunderstand each others position

No problem.

imo the A of D is still future to us.
we saw a type with Nebb.
and, we as Christians in general, do not know the details of the 2nd temple's destruction,
including any abomination that may have been done there
i think that just as we all know about Nebb and his type,
we shall also know the anti-type when it happens.
it would be too important to leave up for debate.

i am, however, considering your position.

The abomination that Daniel spoke of must be history because the temple was destroyed just as Daniel and Jesus said; therefore, the abomination/warning must have occurred just as they said. I also believe in a future "abomination," but not in any third temple in Jerusalem.

although that is not the post i was refering to,
i am in agreement that the structure of Rev6 and Mat24 are similar/same.
what is the first thing that Jesus warns about in Mat24?
Wouldn't that likewise be the first seal?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

the end for both gentile and Jew occurs at the same time.
​

His future 2nd Coming.
labour pains till then.​

But he is also referring to himself as the authentic Christ, the first horseman. "Take heed [to ME]...

The first horseman cannot be a future antichrist because Jesus clearly tells them/us that "these things" will be fulfilled during "this generation"; "These things" goes up to the point where He is "at the door" or "nigh." In other words, "this generation" would continue into what I've been describing as the "long passage of time."

I agree that the time of the Gentile and Jew end at the same time. What I mean by "mirror" is in "the destruction of the temple." The future abomination will be when the church/body of Christ is defiled and destroyed. This destruction will be when the two witnesses lie in the street/horns turn on harlot (I need a simple name for this)

most futurists do not research the greek word toxon to begin with.
but neither do most others.

"bow"
toxon
toxon
tox'-on
from the base of tiktw - tikto a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow.


this is from the Strong's Concordance.

the rider does not have a weapon, but a bolt of simple fabric.
now, we have already read about what Jesus is covered with in Rev1/4.

i had not considered that before.


the wording was my own....
cheap fabric immitation...a knock-off...counterfit.

and that is in harmony with Mat24's first warning by Christ.


i am considering your position.
however, the first thing Christ warns about in Mat24 is false Christs/teachers.

So, John is seeing a vision of a future antichrist that is coming to deceive the world, kill a bunch of us, cause many to go to hell forever, etc, and the warning symbol he issues is, "Look out folks! He's got a bow with a tenuous connotation of simple fabric! Danger!"

Really? Why not a brass, or rusty crown? Or a spotted robe? The whole concept of knock-off, or imitation, depends on the modern notion of brand names--a reference point John wouldn't have had.

If he were trying to warn of a false christ, he would have used a symbol associated with Christ. "Bow" or toxon, is used only that one time in the entire NT from my understanding.

i was being serious btw.
Jesus is Coming here forever and ever.

heaven destroyed and earth refined....
the eternity is right here.

2 Peter 3:10,
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

I am going to assume that your reply will claim the Second Coming and Day of the Lord are two different events.

i think i was refering to the verse before, 20:4.
martyrs
and
those that do not take the mark, who are alive at His Coming.
but my understanding does not negate your position, so it is moot.

i do however view the second resurrection a bit differently than you do.
i believe the first resurrection occures at His 2nd Coming,
and the second resurrection occurs 1000 years later, after the Millennium

No, I too see the first resurrection at His Second Coming. The second resurrection, I assume, would be after God's wrath--how long after is unknowable.

but it does not say that specifically.
i think the 1000 years are yet future and for a specific reason,
the firstfruits reign here on earth in a supernatural way,
and refine those that love Jesus but are hypocrites.
and unfortunately that is the majority imo.

after the 1000 years, they are judged, along with all others.
we'll have to leave the verdict to God Himself tho!_

If you need specifics then you certainly can't say they reign on earth, because the vision show them reigning in what can only be interpreted as Heaven.

And I'm not sure how much more specific it needs to be: Saints first resurrection, no second death; then a scene showing those going to the second death, so they must be the second resurrection.

look around. watch tv. go to various denom'al churches.
see what they teach.

I do. That is why I make a case for the historical apostate church.

i think they will get the truth on day one of His return
but will they hold it for the 1000 years, however long that is literally?
true refinement, only gained from them realizing their error,
and coming to God through works.

and i am not saying that this is a typical futurist response.


imo, the temptation has not occured yet.
it is specific to the end of the end times, and specific to each of us alive at that time.
God placed us here for this time, to learn what we will during it.
some stay faithfull, some do not.

again, this may not be typical futurist understanding...but...
while i think we agree that there is a false Christianity at work today,
i also think that the end of the end times is when the A of D is fulfilled thorugh those that believe in Christ but are fooled by the end time test/temptation hour..
if we are the temple of God, and Satan comes physically to earth, pretending to be Jesus...
if one worships him in that deceit, then that would fulfill the scriptures.


the two largest divides within futurists are
pre trib gathering to Christ vs a post trib gathering to Christ.
i am post trib, in that the church is not removed from the earth, but remains here through it all,
no matter how long that end of the end times is.

Saints in the NT always refers to Christians, so does Rev.
but ya, the pre trib version is all messed up big time.
your mentioning is but one of many ways.

We're both Post-tribulation then. Let's just agree on that.

that might take a thread of it's own.

I would like to see that one.

i do, but it seems that you have replied to the same question, more than once, and have different replies in each.

I do not accept that my position has wavered even one letter; I am always ready to admit, however, that I did not present that position clearly in some cases and that it was misconstrued.

we were discussing the "when" of the A of D.
I say future, you say past.
since we understand that, the rest is moot.
my apologies, we ought to do this in the most respectful way we can.

I actually say both: one in the past, and another coming.

and i can say the exact same thing about my position.

I disagree with that.

true, but why?
i am not saying that this is the only way that Christ will say that to someone, but it certainly is one way.

Because people worship "other gods" without actually knowing it. By idolatry. And isn't it interesting how the supposed "American dream" has been shaken: big house, fancy car, status job, and money have all turned into a housing crisis, disappearing auto manufacturers and bail outs, unemployment, and massive debt.

ahhh. ya i've heard that one before.
as a matter of fact, i grew up RCC.
i'd think that the ratio of who is good vs who is not, is about the same in all of the denom's.
funny thing is, in all my years at church, and in Catholic school,
i never one time saw anybody worship the Pope...
Mary, ya...but not the Pope.

I'm not referring to ratios; I'm referring to the 7th head of the beast specifically being the Holy Roman Empire. The RCC is no more or less apostate than the mega-prosperity churches.

 

[Warduck]

in case you read this right after i post it,
i will have to post this first, go and find it
and then edit this post to reflect such.

k found it....

That doesn't say anything about Michael dying. I think what you may be objecting to is the use of the phrase "blood of the Lamb" regarding the war in Heaven. This is why I made my position clear that the casting down of Satan was done under the authority of the crucifixion. To argue otherwise is to argue that Michael did this under his own power.

We don't even need to believe that this war in Heaven was literal. Each day we are at war, and that is why we are to put on the armor of God.

i think he is physically bound in heaven today.
i think he is spiritually at work here today.
i think he will be unbound when he is cast out of heaven and here to earth physically for a short time.
Christ returns
then the 1000 years begins when Satan is again bound for that time,
until his release again at the end of that time.
where he for one last time leads those that will not come to God.
but this time he has no beast to work with,
nor does he have his religious false Jesus role to work with
as they are already cast into the lake of fire.

I'm not sure what you mean by a spiritual being "physically" bound in Heaven but spiritually at work here. The notion that Satan is still at work but the beast and apostate church or already cast into hell does not make any sense for the reasons given below:

and that is one thing that i have not heard you comment on.
how does your view work with those two being cast in before Satan, in Rev19?
it seems that they are cast in first, then the 1000 years, then Satan is cast in in Rev20.

I actually have commented on this in my original premise of the 7 parallel vision. Chapters 19 and 20 are parallel, not consecutive. The reason for the parallel literary method is to emphasize, recapitulate, add depth of meaning and shades of color.

You will notice that the only earthly judgement here is of the Harlot when the ten horns turn on her and do God's will of destroying her--as judgement begins in the house of God. Again, this is on earth.

But then in 19 we see the false prophet and beast being cast into the lake of fire. The beast is the corrupted version of government Satan uses to persecute--which means the beast is people. The harlot, little beast, and false prophet are all the same: the apostate church--which means it is people. These are the people being cast into the lake of fire in 20.

It is the same scene being replayed, only with Satan added in 20--he is the subject of the chapter. They are all going in on the same judgement day.

So the sequence of future events would be Second Coming/first resurrection, then wrath/the destruction of everyone and everything, then judgement day.

but upon reading Rev19 and 20 again, i do see your point.
I guess you believe that it is impossible for us alive today to be part of the first ressurrection.

No, I believe the First resurrection includes all Christians living and dead. The vision in 20 is just that: it is the assured destiny of believers.

could be...and i had been considering that view for some time.
that hour, when the two witnesses are overcome, is the time that most of us futurists call the tribulation.

Yes

but interesting view on the 1290.
what do you do with 1335?

I have started a thread on this.

why do you consider Magog to be the same as Gog ?
what does the ma part mean?

My view on this is pretty standard among scholars, I think. They are merely symbols borrowed from the OT to represent the enemies of God. It could be that they represent multiple countries, or that Gog and Magog are king and empire. Ultimately, though, their specific identities do not matter much at this point, for time will tell.

What does matter is that Christians need to be ready for the paradigm to shift.

 

[zeke37]

The Gospel is one tree, the church the other. Olive trees because they bear fruit. (olives are, in fact, fruit) One cannot bear fruit without the other. Jesus told us the Gospel would be preached to all nations; this requires the Gospel and someone to preach it.

no, the candlesticks are already the chruch,
so the Olive trees are something/someone else. Zec4
the picture is that of the Minorah...
the church is the 7 candlesticks, the olive trees feed the oil in to the candlesticks.
by Rev11, only 2 of the 7 get any oil.

the olive trees feed the church oil.

The abomination that Daniel spoke of must be history because the temple was destroyed just as Daniel and Jesus said; therefore, the abomination/warning must have occurred just as they said. I also believe in a future "abomination," but not in any third temple in Jerusalem.

only if you relate the A of D being in the physical temple a long time ago.
i do not, for "we" are the temple of God.

the A of D cannot be in the past, because the end would have come then...
and it obv. has not yet.

But he is also referring to himself as the authentic Christ, the first horseman. "Take heed [to ME]...

The first horseman cannot be a future antichrist because Jesus clearly tells them/us that "these things" will be fulfilled during "this generation"; "These things" goes up to the point where He is "at the door" or "nigh." In other words, "this generation" would continue into what I've been describing as the "long passage of time."

most of us futurists, well proib all, believe that the generation in question is the one that sees all those things occure, including His return and the end.

I agree that the time of the Gentile and Jew end at the same time. What I mean by "mirror" is in "the destruction of the temple." The future abomination will be when the church/body of Christ is defiled and destroyed. This destruction will be when the two witnesses lie in the street/horns turn on harlot (I need a simple name for this)

and that is when the A of D is fulfilled.

So, John is seeing a vision of a future antichrist that is coming to deceive the world, kill a bunch of us, cause many to go to hell forever, etc, and the warning symbol he issues is, "Look out folks! He's got a bow with a tenuous connotation of simple fabric! Danger!"

the bow is a covering/appearance...righteousness, or lack there of.
it is the false Christ looking like Jesus.
on wings of peace
seduction etc.

Really? Why not a brass, or rusty crown? Or a spotted robe?

God worded it that way, not John or I.

The whole concept of knock-off, or imitation, depends on the modern notion of brand names--a reference point John wouldn't have had.

why not? simplest fabric vs royal fabric.
but as i stated previously, those are my words.

If he were trying to warn of a false christ, he would have used a symbol associated with Christ. "Bow" or toxon, is used only that one time in the entire NT from my understanding.

true, it is used only once, but most believe it to be a weapon, but the greek does not allow for that.
white horse is the reference to Christ.
toxon is a reference to this cheap fabric glory...not the pure white robes of Christ.

2 Peter 3:10,
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

I am going to assume that your reply will claim the Second Coming and Day of the Lord are two different events.

the Day of the Lord is a 1000 years long...and all that is refinement.
it begins with the Lord's 2nd Coming.

at His 2nd Coming, Christ remains here with those He has gathered.
we do not go off to heaven.

heaven will be destroyed anyway...
the earth refined, (and those on it refined too, at least some)

No, I too see the first resurrection at His Second Coming. The second resurrection, I assume, would be after God's wrath--how long after is unknowable.

i agree, but i think that wrath is 1000 years long

If you need specifics then you certainly can't say they reign on earth, because the vision show them reigning in what can only be interpreted as Heaven.

where? why? see Rev5 for where the good guys reign from.
we know the "timing' because of the end of the chapter...every knee bows that day.

Rev19 shows Him leaving heaven and coming to earth to get those who will be gathered.
Jesus is shown on earth in Rev14, with the gathered ones.

so when do they go back to heaven, also keeping in mind what is said in Zec14?

'cause Bro, i can't find it anywhere?...
i can find the Saints coming here,
the Lord Coming here,
the rulers doing so from here,
His Kingdom being set up here, the temple here....
heaven eventually destroyed, earth rejuivinated

And I'm not sure how much more specific it needs to be: Saints first resurrection, no second death; then a scene showing those going to the second death, so they must be the second resurrection.

sure, but not all.
the time spoken of in Ez44 needs to happen first,
and that time is for a specific purpose...refinement...
from the wrath of God until the Judgement.

I do. That is why I make a case for the historical apostate church.

ya, we disagree a bit here...
i think apostasy is when one worships another, leaves their faith...

We're both Post-tribulation then. Let's just agree on that.

k

I would like to see that one.

rrrrrrrr....not today

I do not accept that my position has wavered even one letter; I am always ready to admit, however, that I did not present that position clearly in some cases and that it was misconstrued.

well, we can discuss that later.

I actually say both: one in the past, and another coming.

you see, i never got that from you before now.
I say the past one was only a type, and the future one is the anti-type

I disagree with that.

well, i can.

Because people worship "other gods" without actually knowing it. By idolatry. And isn't it interesting how the supposed "American dream" has been shaken: big house, fancy car, status job, and money have all turned into a housing crisis, disappearing auto manufacturers and bail outs, unemployment, and massive debt.

i don't think that is what the hour of temptation is all about.
it is about either being faithfull till Christ shows up,
or accepting the system (kingdom) and king that comes first.

it's a specific temptation period, meant as a test.

I'm not referring to ratios; I'm referring to the 7th head of the beast specifically being the Holy Roman Empire. The RCC is no more or less apostate than the mega-prosperity churches.

i'm not saying you are wrong, but what makes you think that we can identify the 7 heads?

 

[zeke37]

That doesn't say anything about Michael dying. I think what you may be objecting to is the use of the phrase "blood of the Lamb" regarding the war in Heaven. This is why I made my position clear that the casting down of Satan was done under the authority of the crucifixion. To argue otherwise is to argue that Michael did this under his own power.

well, that is not the point of my response.
but ok, np.
the ones that are said to overcame him by the blood of the lamb, are also said that they loved not their lives unto death.
so, therefore Michael is not in that group.
but certainly he is under the authority and leadership of Christ.

We don't even need to believe that this war in Heaven was literal. Each day we are at war, and that is why we are to put on the armor of God.

ok

I'm not sure what you mean by a spiritual being "physically" bound in Heaven but spiritually at work here.

Satan the supernatural fallen angel,
who i think is every bit as physical as the rest of us, (not flesh and blood but very real)
is bound today in heaven...

he is able to influence here tho, as we can see from all the evil in the world.

he shall be cast out of heaven and down to the earth for the short time.
the short time that he is cast down here is said to be the times, time, half a time,
so that is why i do not relate this time period to that mentioned in Rev 20, as you seem to so far.

perhaps that bit of info might get you to my side...lol.
seriously, see Rev12.
The beast is cast down to earth for the 42 months,
where he persecutes the descendants of the women,
who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

so that does not sound like a binding, but rather an unbinding.

The notion that Satan is still at work but the beast and apostate church or already cast into hell does not make any sense for the reasons given below:

well, it doesn't make sense in your scheme of things,
but in mine it makes perfect sense.

Satan is still at work today, just not walking too and fro as he did in the past.
influences/spirit....

during the future 42 months, Satan will be cast oiut of heaven and here to earth, himself,
in his own supernatural angelic body,
walking too and fro again, as he did in the past.
that is how he will be able to fool the world...he's supernatural.

he will have at his disposal a political beast, and a religious beast.
he will lead both, as dictator and false Christ.

after the return of the True Christ, the political beast and the false Christ role are done away with forever...
but Satan is bound again, reserved for one last role.

after the refinement stage, Satan is again released, (Rev20)
but this time he has no political or religious power to aid his conquest.
who ever follows him that last time, will be doing so of his own free will, no tricks.

judgement follows.

I actually have commented on this in my original premise of the 7 parallel vision. Chapters 19 and 20 are parallel, not consecutive. The reason for the parallel literary method is to emphasize, recapitulate, add depth of meaning and shades of color.

i too have found 7 repeating themes in Rev, which is one reason why i started to converse with you.

however, i disagree that 19 and 20 are parallel.

You will notice that the only earthly judgement here is of the Harlot when the ten horns turn on her and do God's will of destroying her--as judgement begins in the house of God. Again, this is on earth.

But then in 19 we see the false prophet and beast being cast into the lake of fire. The beast is the corrupted version of government Satan uses to persecute--which means the beast is people. The harlot, little beast, and false prophet are all the same: the apostate church--which means it is people. These are the people being cast into the lake of fire in 20.

imo the harlot is the apostate church of the future.

the first beast is the political giant that Satan spiritually leads today in it's infantsy, but will
but will physicaly command one day when it becomes the Rev13 superpower.

the 2nd beast in Rev13 that looks like a lamb, is Satan himself playing the false prophet/antiChrist role.

It is the same scene being replayed, only with Satan added in 20--he is the subject of the chapter. They are all going in on the same judgement day.

i agree, same day. but 19 and 20 are not parallel.
the beast is political, the prophet is religious.
those two "things" are done away with 1000 years before Satan.

So the sequence of future events would be Second Coming/first resurrection, then wrath/the destruction of everyone and everything, then judgement day.

i agree...still, 19 and 20 are not parallel.

No, I believe the First resurrection includes all Christians living and dead.

so do i....well, all that have not taken the mark.

The vision in 20 is just that: it is the assured destiny of believers.

i see it as that too, but not parallel to 19.

My view on this is pretty standard among scholars, I think. They are merely symbols borrowed from the OT to represent the enemies of God. It could be that they represent multiple countries, or that Gog and Magog are king and empire. Ultimately, though, their specific identities do not matter much at this point, for time will tell.

What does matter is that Christians need to be ready for the paradigm to shift.

big shift coming soon, i think from the EU first.

 

[Warduck]

no, the candlesticks are already the chruch,
so the Olive trees are something/someone else. Zec4
the picture is that of the Minorah...
the church is the 7 candlesticks, the olive trees feed the oil in to the candlesticks.
by Rev11, only 2 of the 7 get any oil.

the olive trees feed the church oil.

I should have written that the Gospel and church are both the candlesicks and olive trees.

Anyway, so you've got four witnesses and a minorah while abandoning the most plausible interpretation just for the sake of being contrary. You asked me why trees, and asked for supporting scripture. I gave them to you. But you just say, "No, olive trees feed the church oil."

only if you relate the A of D being in the physical temple a long time ago.
i do not, for "we" are the temple of God.

I do, just as any other sentient person would, while you, on the other hand, abandon the entire mission of Jesus Christ and everything he said about the temple being destroyed and a new one being raised in three days.

the A of D cannot be in the past, because the end would have come then...
and it obv. has not yet.

This is false. Show me the verse where this is stated.

most of us futurists, well proib all, believe that the generation in question is the one that sees all those things occure, including His return and the end.


and that is when the A of D is fulfilled.

I know you do, and the only support for it is your opinion. I have already shown you that those who see "these things" would know that he is nigh, not over. And that it is impossible for anyone to see everything he is describing, which is in harmony with the seven seals sequence in which the saints as God "How long?" This is a long passage of time as I have described. But you can't admit that or your house of cards would begin to fall. All you continue to say is that you think it's in the future with no supporting content.

So, John is seeing a vision of a future antichrist that is coming to deceive the world, kill a bunch of us, cause many to go to hell forever, etc, and the warning symbol he issues is, "Look out folks! He's got a bow with a tenuous connotation of simple fabric! Danger!"

the bow is a covering/appearance...righteousness, or lack there of.
it is the false Christ looking like Jesus.
on wings of peace
seduction etc.


God worded it that way, not John or I.

why not? simplest fabric vs royal fabric.
but as i stated previously, those are my words.


true, it is used only once, but most believe it to be a weapon, but the greek does not allow for that.
white horse is the reference to Christ.
toxon is a reference to this cheap fabric glory...not the pure white robes of Christ.

Right. I asked you to provide a link to a source for your "imitation" and you couldn't. Nothing. And you were forced to admit that you made it up because you need this vision to be an antichrist or the house of cards begins to fall.

Then you admitted simple fabric makes sense in the context of the first advent, but now your make another version enabling you to stick to the fantasy. Have you ever noticed the two witnesses are clothed in sackcloth?

the Day of the Lord is a 1000 years long...and all that is refinement.
it begins with the Lord's 2nd Coming.

at His 2nd Coming, Christ remains here with those He has gathered.
we do not go off to heaven.

heaven will be destroyed anyway...
the earth refined, (and those on it refined too, at least some)

i agree, but i think that wrath is 1000 years long

Prove it in scripture. Show me. You're just going to keep repeating your opinions over and over.

where? why? see Rev5 for where the good guys reign from.
we know the "timing' because of the end of the chapter...every knee bows that day.

Rev19 shows Him leaving heaven and coming to earth to get those who will be gathered.
Jesus is shown on earth in Rev14, with the gathered ones.

so when do they go back to heaven, also keeping in mind what is said in Zec14?

'cause Bro, i can't find it anywhere?...
i can find the Saints coming here,
the Lord Coming here,
the rulers doing so from here,
His Kingdom being set up here, the temple here....
heaven eventually destroyed, earth rejuivinated

This is blathering. You're not saying anything, just trying to save some face by dropping vague references to chapters and saying, "See this one."

sure, but not all.
the time spoken of in Ez44 needs to happen first,
and that time is for a specific purpose...refinement...
from the wrath of God until the Judgement.

Show me the scripture. Prove it. Your not bringing any content whatsoever.

ya, we disagree a bit here...
i think apostasy is when one worships another, leaves their faith...

Apostasy doesn't mean you have to leave and worship another. This is merely another self-serving definition you have to create to satisfy your antichrist scenario.

k
rrrrrrrr....not today


well, we can discuss that later.

Right. I ask you for content, and you fail to provide it.

you see, i never got that from you before now.
I say the past one was only a type, and the future one is the anti-type

Yes, you did, several times:

"There is allowed here a future destruction of the bodily temple in the future since the time of the Gentile will mirror the end of the time of the Jews."

These kinds of denials are just cheap tactics you keep resorting to.

i don't think that is what the hour of temptation is all about.
it is about either being faithfull till Christ shows up,
or accepting the system (kingdom) and king that comes first.

it's a specific temptation period, meant as a test.

You're disagreeing with a statement I never made.

i'm not saying you are wrong, but what makes you think that we can identify the 7 heads?

Because we're told that the beast has five heads that have fallen, and one is, and one is yet to come.

The "one that is" is the one in power as of the writing of Revelation: the Roman Empire. Five were before it: Egypt, Assyria, babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.

And one is yet to come: the Roman Empire received the deadly wound and was revived as the Holy Roman Empire, the seventh head.

I take the 7 heads a bit further as symbollic of this corrupt government all over the world at all times. But this is, I think, intended as a literal fulfillment anchor to provide us with the 42 month/~2000 time frame.
I see the 7 hills as not only the seven hills of Rome, but also representing the 7 continents.

You will have to deny that this beast has been around that long.

 

[Warduck]

well, that is not the point of my response.
but ok, np.
the ones that are said to overcame him by the blood of the lamb, are also said that they loved not their lives unto death.
so, therefore Michael is not in that group.
but certainly he is under the authority and leadership of Christ.

Then neither of us knows the point of your response because you're just pulling these out of thin air to give the illusion of an argument. You stated that I wrote Michael had died. I said show me, and this is what you show me. It's not there. Now all you can say is "that's not my point."

Satan the supernatural fallen angel,
who i think is every bit as physical as the rest of us, (not flesh and blood but very real)
is bound today in heaven...

he is able to influence here tho, as we can see from all the evil in the world.

he shall be cast out of heaven and down to the earth for the short time.
the short time that he is cast down here is said to be the times, time, half a time,
so that is why i do not relate this time period to that mentioned in Rev 20, as you seem to so far.

perhaps that bit of info might get you to my side...lol.
seriously, see Rev12.
The beast is cast down to earth for the 42 months,
where he persecutes the descendants of the women,
who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

so that does not sound like a binding, but rather an unbinding.

This is nonsense. I made a comprehensive case showing the binding of Satan refers exclusively to the protection of the church, and you know that.

You're going to "lol" me, slick? really? Because the only people laughing will be the ones reading your ridiculuous posturings.

I made it abundantly clear on post number one that the 1260 days, 42 months, and time, times, and half a time are the same time period. They are all 3 1/2! The only bit of info your giving me here is that you are as ignorant of this discussion as you are of Revelation.

And you're going to tell me "seriously, see Rev. 12"? Your arrogance is astounding considering the jibberish you keep posting. I don't know why I keep wasting my time responding to:

Oh, what about Zek5?
Refining...
How come you keep changing your mind?
And don't forget Zek2 and Ez4, right? See what I mean?
Uh...
I think it's in the future, but I can't tell you why.
Read Rev11 again. lol...
seriously, bro, I can show you
Reread Ez8. Refining...

And please tell me why I need to read chapter 12 again. Tell me what it is that I missed, because all I read from you is that Satan is cast down for 42 months to persecute the woman. And then you say that it doesn't sound like an unbinding! I have covered this for days for you and you just toss it off as a passing point not dealt with. Cheap and cowardly.

well, it doesn't make sense in your scheme of things,
but in mine it makes perfect sense.

I'm sure you believe that. My reading fits with Matthew and Daniel exactly. You're version requires that you change prophecies/visions of Jesus in the antichrist, say that Jesus didn't mean what he said in Matt 24, and make up your own fraudulant definitions.

Perfect sense.

Satan is still at work today, just not walking too and fro as he did in the past.
influences/spirit....

No kidding. This is meaningless.

during the future 42 months, Satan will be cast oiut of heaven and here to earth, himself,
in his own supernatural angelic body,
walking too and fro again, as he did in the past.
that is how he will be able to fool the world...he's supernatural.

I have already shown that the 42 months are not future. You just have to ignore the fact that the saints in heaven in chapters 7 and 20 are described as "from the tribulation." And there's no way you can explain where the rest are; you just ignore it and say "I think," make a few vague statements and list a couple chapters from the OT referring to ancient Israel.

Also showing this is the sixth head of the beast being the Roman Empire at the time of the writing. I've also shown it with the Daniel 12 explanation thread. Jesus himself told John to write the things which he has seen, the things which are, and the things that will be. (1:19)

he will have at his disposal a political beast, and a religious beast.
he will lead both, as dictator and false Christ.

after the return of the True Christ, the political beast and the false Christ role are done away with forever...
but Satan is bound again, reserved for one last role.

after the refinement stage, Satan is again released, (Rev20)
but this time he has no political or religious power to aid his conquest.
who ever follows him that last time, will be doing so of his own free will, no tricks.

Show me the scripture for this refinement stage of yours where your saints are teaching all the fooled Christians. Show me, or stop writing it. And explain to me where everyone is getting caught up to upon Jesus' return. They're being harvested... to earth?

And how is Satan going to "deceive the nations" without tricks?

Or don't show me, because who cares?

however, i disagree that 19 and 20 are parallel.

Right, you disagree they are parallel, so you believe in separate judgement days--of which you already said you believe in only one.

imo the harlot is the apostate church of the future.

So you have to create a false definition in order to satisfy the futurist screed.

the first beast is the political giant that Satan spiritually leads today in it's infantsy, but will
but will physicaly command one day when it becomes the Rev13 superpower.

the 2nd beast in Rev13 that looks like a lamb, is Satan himself playing the false prophet/antiChrist role.

Yeah, show me the scriptures where you find that Satan will be playing the antichrist. I'd also like to know how Satan is relased after the false prophet is thrown into the lake of fire.

i agree, same day. but 19 and 20 are not parallel.
the beast is political, the prophet is religious.
those two "things" are done away with 1000 years before Satan.


i agree...still, 19 and 20 are not parallel.

Of course not. I have already shown the symbolic consistency of the four names of Satan, the casting down/binding, tribulation, and judgement--and in that order. So anyone in the future reading this thread who is not pathologically bonded to a nonsensical position will see it too.


i see it as that too, but not parallel to 19.

Now you've got a thousand years of god's wrath as a refining period which is apparently nowhere to be found during which the saints teach the fooled Christians something--I don't know what--even though there is no indication that they are on earth--we just have to take your word for it.

Then Satan is released after 1000 years (I'm wondering how long a life span will be at this time) to deceive the nations after they have been under the rule of Christ! He will roam to and fro all by himself because everyone else is dead and in the lake of fire (because you don't think 19 and 20 are parallel). But obviously he finds a few takers because there is still the Gog and Magog war to come!

All these refined by wrath Christians are now turning on their brethren because they are able to surround God's people. Satan's helpers are now the majority! What a millenium it has been!

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

i can agree with a lot of what you wrote,
except i believe Satan is;
in heaven today,
soon to be cast here in his own angelic body,
will pretend to be Christ returned and fool the world,
will be bound at Christ's Coming and bound for 1000 years.

Ummm! Jesus said "I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven" see Luke 10:18........the fall of satan and his angels has already occured

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[zeke37]

I should have written that the Gospel and church are both the candlesicks and olive trees.

Anyway, so you've got four witnesses and a minorah while abandoning the most plausible interpretation just for the sake of being contrary. You asked me why trees, and asked for supporting scripture. I gave them to you. But you just say, "No, olive trees feed the church oil."

i am simply stating what the Lord already has.
the two witnesses consist of two olive trees and two candlesticks.
two + two = Four, right?

one part of the witness is the 2 churches (Smyrna and Philadelphia) as the 2 candlesticks

the other part is the 2 olive trees, which i believe are individuals.

I suggest you read Zec4 for another angle on it.

we have scripture actually telling us what the candlesticks are.
i wanted scripture actually telling us that the gospel was the olive trees, but you cannot provide it.

as for the minorah, ya it is pretty obvious...see Rev1, then see Zec4

I do, just as any other sentient person would, while you, on the other hand, abandon the entire mission of Jesus Christ and everything he said about the temple being destroyed and a new one being raised in three days.

and what temple was raised in three days?
was it a physical temple of bricks?
of course not. He spoke of His Body.
the NT teaches that we are the both the Body of Christ and the temple of God today.


please do not make any assertations that i abandon this or that.
you obviously do not know my heart, nor even my proper opinion.

This is false. Show me the verse where this is stated.

my answer was based on your preception of Mat 24's A of D being in the past.
if it had been in the past, then the end would have come...Jesus would have come again.

below, i believe is specific to the time just before Christ's return.
at this point, whether you agree or not is irrelivant.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
​

whether you agree that the above is still future or not, again, irrelevant.
from this point on, we can agree that it is about a future to us time, the text itself easily shows this

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
​

the point i want you to focus on is that in this chapter, from this point on,
is that never is there another set of days ......
it's all the same days...

if you read the chapter directly through, it seems that the days that the A od D are here, is the same days just before His Coming.

they are not removed by app 2000 years.

for your theory to work, verse 15 is about a time in the first century.
and since Christ has not yet returned, verse 29 is yet future to us.
i say that there is nothing in the verses in between to lead one to believe that there is a 2000 year gap.
i don't know how you came to your conclusion.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
​

so for your inter to be correct, the destruction of the 2nd temple, in the first century
was the worst time ever in all history???
really???

really???

i cannot agree.
not only that but remember that these are still the same "days" when the A of D is around.
worst time ever

notice the "housetop" and "field" reference?
see verses 38-44.
metaphores....housetop is as a watchman...field is as working for the Lord...
but they show the timing as being in our yet future, not in the past...
because that is how it will be like when the Lord will return..like the days of noah.

the woe to them that give suck in those days,
is meant for a warning to us Christians that will become seduced by the evil one's false Christ role
and worship the false Christ thinking he is Jesus returned.
they are not virgins for Christ anymore...woe to them...no marriage for them.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
​

again, same days...those days just mentioned when the A of D is seen...

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
​

so, as you may be able to see now, the above time, from verse 15 to 26 is all future to us.
the "time" doesn't change drastically and add 2000 years after the A of D is mentioned.
so the chapter continues...

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

immidiately after the tribulation of those days...
what days?
the days that we see the A of D etc....
if you disagree, show me where the scriptures change dates and add 2000 years until is Coming?
because if you can't then that means that the chapter, at least from 15 - 26 is all referencing the same period of time.
and since immidiately after those days Christ returns, i'd say it's still future.
pretty logical, no?

I know you do, and the only support for it is your opinion. I have already shown you that those who see "these things" would know that he is nigh, not over. And that it is impossible for anyone to see everything he is describing, which is in harmony with the seven seals sequence in which the saints as God "How long?" This is a long passage of time as I have described. But you can't admit that or your house of cards would begin to fall. All you continue to say is that you think it's in the future with no supporting content.

the scripture itself supports it.
there is no change from the time of the A of D, unitl immidiately after the tribulation of those days.

for your theory to work, we have to wait 2000 years between the A of D and His Coming,
when the scriptures say IMMIDIATELY after.

Right. I asked you to provide a link to a source for your "imitation" and you couldn't. Nothing. And you were forced to admit that you made it up because you need this vision to be an antichrist or the house of cards begins to fall.

pardon me? i never said they were anything but my words.
the Strong's Concordance says it means a fabric, of the simplest kind.
if this was a reference to Christ's first advent as you say, meek / humble whatever,
then why is this rider depicted on a white horse instead of a donkey?

even if i do think your theory of Rev repeating the Gospel age over and over has some merrit,
this first rider still does not have to be Christ to make that work.

Then you admitted simple fabric makes sense in the context of the first advent,

no, i never admitted that at all...

but now your make another version enabling you to stick to the fantasy. Have you ever noticed the two witnesses are clothed in sackcloth?

yes, what about it.
that means something in the OT prophets.
that sack cloth is not toxon.

 

[zeke37]

Prove it in scripture. Show me. You're just going to keep repeating your opinions over and over.

i have biblical support, but you prob. wont accept it as such.

the Day of the Lord is a 1000 years long...2Pet3, Rev20
and all that is refinement. Ez44
it begins with the Lord's 2nd Coming. 1Cor5

at His 2nd Coming, Christ remains here with those He has gathered.
we do not go off to heaven. Zec14, Rev14, 1Thes4

heaven will be destroyed anyway...2Pet3
the earth refined, (and those on it refined too, at least some) Ez44

i agree, but i think that wrath is 1000 years long 2Pet3, Rev20, Ez44

​

This is blathering. You're not saying anything, just trying to save some face by dropping vague references to chapters and saying, "See this one."

they were not vague. Rev5 says that we shall reign on the earth.
Rev19 shows Christ leaving heaven
Rev14 shows Christ on earth with the elect.
Zec 14 shows that a way is made to Him, and His feet are touched down here.

Show me the scripture. Prove it. Your not bringing any content whatsoever.

i gave you the reference. Ez44.

Apostasy doesn't mean you have to leave and worship another. This is merely another self-serving definition you have to create to satisfy your antichrist scenario.

really? 1Tim4 Rev13:11f

Right. I ask you for content, and you fail to provide it.

i said it would take a thread of it's own

Yes, you did, several times:

"There is allowed here a future destruction of the bodily temple in the future since the time of the Gentile will mirror the end of the time of the Jews."

These kinds of denials are just cheap tactics you keep resorting to.

it was not a denial...or cheap tactics.
you had said previously that the A of D was in the past.
that is the crux of our disagreement.
now you say it will be in the future too.

and ya, i read THAT statement ONE time...recently.
sure, i could have missed it if you said it before,
which is why i worded my response to reflect that.
i did not say you lied or changed or what ever else your mind has conceived.

You're disagreeing with a statement I never made.

no, u were saying that we worship material goods today and that counts as idolitry.
i see a specific end time test, and it is about worshiping the false christ, or staying faithfull till the end.

Because we're told that the beast has five heads that have fallen, and one is, and one is yet to come.

and how does that identify the 7th as the HRE?
again, i am not saying you are wrong

The "one that is" is the one in power as of the writing of Revelation: the Roman Empire. Five were before it: Egypt, Assyria, babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.

we can agree for the most part about the above.

And one is yet to come: the Roman Empire received the deadly wound and was revived as the Holy Roman Empire, the seventh head.

speculation.

I take the 7 heads a bit further as symbollic of this corrupt government all over the world at all times. But this is, I think, intended as a literal fulfillment anchor to provide us with the 42 month/~2000 time frame.
I see the 7 hills as not only the seven hills of Rome, but also representing the 7 continents.

You will have to deny that this beast has been around that long.[/quote]
been pondering that theory for a while. not there yet tho.

 

[zeke37]

Ummm! Jesus said "I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven" see Luke 10:18........the fall of satan and his angels has already occured

imo He was prophesying,
as the context of that part of the chapter is about the end days and judgement.

12But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

13Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
​

 

[zeke37]

Then neither of us knows the point of your response because you're just pulling these out of thin air to give the illusion of an argument. You stated that I wrote Michael had died. I said show me, and this is what you show me. It's not there. Now all you can say is "that's not my point."

well, it was not "my" point at all....
and you "implied" it, whether on purpose or not...
i was willing to let it go. still am.
i already posted it again for you, and you just ignored it...
so whatever dude.
life goes on.

This is nonsense. I made a comprehensive case showing the binding of Satan refers exclusively to the protection of the church, and you know that.

listen Bro. he is cast down to earth in Rev12
and goes after the descendants of the woman
who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
how you call that "binding" or the same thing as the 1000 years is beyond me.
he actually persecutes the church in the last verse.
but ya, i read your response. i understand your point and disagree.
as for Rev20, he is bound for the 1000 years.
the 1260 days (42 months) and the 1000 years are not the same time period,
even if some of what you say elsewhere about the repeated visions is likely true.

You're going to "lol" me, slick? really? Because the only people laughing will be the ones reading your ridiculuous posturings.

you're going to "slick" me, lol....really?
it is not rediculous to believe
that the time from the A of D
to
immidiately after the tribulation of those days,
in Mat24, is yet future.

in fact, there is no other way to accurately read Mat24.
because immidiately after those days (that they see the A of D), the Lord returns to gather His elect.

I made it abundantly clear on post number one that the 1260 days, 42 months, and time, times, and half a time are the same time period. They are all 3 1/2!

ok good...we agree.

The only bit of info your giving me here is that you are as ignorant of this discussion as you are of Revelation.

And you're going to tell me "seriously, see Rev. 12"? Your arrogance is astounding considering the jibberish you keep posting.

well, the time/times/half a time and Satan persecuting the church for the short time, is mentioned

how is that jibberish?

I don't know why I keep wasting my time responding to:

Oh, what about Zek5?

never said Zec5....4 ya...minorah, two olive trees...
hmmmmm.
seems like it is relevant to me.

Refining...
How come you keep changing your mind?

where?
when have i deviated from teaching a refinement stage, after the Lord returns?

And don't forget Zek2 and Ez4, right? See what I mean?

nope, i don't...
i did not mention either of those scripture references.

Uh...
I think it's in the future, but I can't tell you why.

sure i can...
both the A of D and the 1000 years are future to us today.
Mat24 proves it...."immidiately after those days"

Read Rev11 again. lol...
seriously, bro, I can show you
Reread Ez8. Refining...

well....at least give the scripture quotes accurately.

And please tell me why I need to read chapter 12 again. Tell me what it is that I missed, because all I read from you is that Satan is cast down for 42 months to persecute the woman. And then you say that it doesn't sound like an unbinding!

no, it doesn't sound like a binding...
it does sound like an unbinding.

I have covered this for days for you and you just toss it off as a passing point not dealt with. Cheap and cowardly.

no, it is not cheap and cowardly, it is simply listening to your theory and rejecting it.

I'm sure you believe that. My reading fits with Matthew and Daniel exactly.

actually, you'rs does not fit Mat24 at all.

You're version requires that you change prophecies/visions of Jesus in the antichrist, say that Jesus didn't mean what he said in Matt 24, and make up your own fraudulant definitions.

pathetic..all i did was disagree with YOU, not he Word.

I have already shown that the 42 months are not future.

no you have not...you gave your opinion.

You just have to ignore the fact that the saints in heaven in chapters 7 and 20 are described as "from the tribulation."

and? i don't ignore it at all.

And there's no way you can explain where the rest are; you just ignore it and say "I think," make a few vague statements and list a couple chapters from the OT referring to ancient Israel.

you are being to vague...the rest of what? deceased Saints?
sure i can. See 1Thes4

Also showing this is the sixth head of the beast being the Roman Empire at the time of the writing. I've also shown it with the Daniel 12 explanation thread. Jesus himself told John to write the things which he has seen, the things which are, and the things that will be. (1:19)

Show me the scripture for this refinement stage of yours where your saints are teaching all the fooled Christians. Show me, or stop writing it.

read Ez44.

And explain to me where everyone is getting caught up to upon Jesus' return. They're being harvested... to earth?

yes.
the dead LEAVE heaven with God and Come here to be "raised"
after they are raised, then those of us who are alive
are changed and gathered together with them
in our newly changed spiritual/heavenly body, in a great cloud of witnesses.
see 1Thes4

also, see Zec14 for what happens when His feet touch the ground.

And how is Satan going to "deceive the nations" without tricks?

Or don't show me, because who cares?

when he is here during the future 42 months, he has tricks...
it's about a seduction of the potential bride of Christ

but when he is released from his bondage after the future 1000 years
he does not have the political or religious beasts...
who ever follows him then will be willing participants against God.
hence the judgement against them

Right, you disagree they are parallel, so you believe in separate judgement days--of which you already said you believe in only one.

i only believe in one.
i don't read of a judgement, as you do, in Rev19.

So you have to create a false definition in order to satisfy the futurist screed.

no, i have to either agree with you and change, or not agree and stay where i am, or ponder your position
what particular false definition are you refering to?

Yeah, show me the scriptures where you find that Satan will be playing the antichrist.

there are many.
Mat24's warnings of false christ
2Cor11's warning of another Jesus
2Cor11's Satan disguised as an angel of light
2Thes2's warning of the son of perdition claiming to be God
Rev12's declaration of who the dragon/beast/Satan is and where he is
Rev13's mouth that is worshiped
Rev13's "another" beast that looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon
Rev17's perdition recipient

I'd also like to know how Satan is relased after the false prophet is thrown into the lake of fire.

the religious beast personna...his role as false Christ.
the beast that looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon is done away with for the future Millennium,
because Christ Himself is here.
the political beast is done away with too,
because instead of Satan's kingdom here, it will be Christ's Kingdom.

Of course not. I have already shown the symbolic consistency of the four names of Satan, the casting down/binding, tribulation, and judgement--and in that order. So anyone in the future reading this thread who is not pathologically bonded to a nonsensical position will see it too.

and you call me arrogant?

Now you've got a thousand years of god's wrath as a refining period which is apparently nowhere to be found during which the saints teach the fooled Christians something--I don't know what--even though there is no indication that they are on earth--we just have to take your word for it.

i gave scripture for each point you ridicule.

Then Satan is released after 1000 years (I'm wondering how long a life span will be at this time)

incorruptible. everyone will still be here. 1Cor15

to deceive the nations after they have been under the rule of Christ!

even in your view, he is released to deceive after they have been under the rule of Christ

He will roam to and fro all by himself because everyone else is dead and in the lake of fire (because you don't think 19 and 20 are parallel).

huh? stop putting your own words into my understanding.
everyone else who was around, is changed...
we shall not all die.

i don't know how you come to your conclusions about what i believe about the fact that 19 and 20 are not parallel.
but you are dead wrong.

But obviously he finds a few takers because there is still the Gog and Magog war to come!

so, even by your view....
i never said everyone else was dead. you did.

All these refined by wrath Christians are now turning on their brethren because they are able to surround God's people.

no, they would now be in the camp of God's people if they are refined.
if not, then they are against it.

Satan's helpers are now the majority! What a millenium it has been!

again, you are way off on what I believe.
and you are being pretty nasty too.:o