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7 Visions of Revelation
- Thread starter Warduck
- Start date
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev. 20 doesn't say that.
Not quite. Jesus here answers 2 questions with 2 parallel timelines--just as he structured Revelation. Part 1 goes from verse 4 through 14--"the end."
What you are describing above are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals (Jesus is the 1st), that's why He says they are only the beginning; then follows a long passage of time indicated by the preaching of the Gospel to all nations--this will take some time, obviously.
Part 2, Verse 15 begins again back at the destruction of the temple, then the start of the tribulation, another long passage of time (the 5th seal: "how long, O Lord until You judge?") indicated here by the many false christs and prophets that arise, then the end of the tribulation and the opening of the 6th seal, which he describes verbatim.
Revelation 6 and Matt 24 are in complete harmony both structurally and thematically, and both pick up where Daniel 9 ended.
There is allowed here a future destruction of the bodily temple in the future since the time of the Gentile will mirror the end of the time of the Jews.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
this is what happens at His 2nd Coming
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This cannot be so for reasons that have already been stated. But if, hypothetically, it were true--the great tribulation is a specific period at the end of the Gospel Age--then you have a real problem in Chapter 20 because the saints are identified as those who did not worship the beats and accept his mark.
Well what about the rest of the Christians throughout history? Where are they? They are here because the tribulation, beast and mark are ~2000 years old.
With the dilemma in Ch. 20, the futurist will here be forced again to create multiple harvests, multiple versions of saints, multiple judgement days, and so on until the apocalyptic miasma is completely incoherent. But if you do dice up the Second Coming, harvest, and judgements, then you have a real problem with John 5: 25-29. It simply won't allow it.
The position being put forth here does.
This has already happened as happened as evidences in the 7 letters and the harlot/false prophet. The conundrum above supports this.
i doubt that the pre tribbers will even know that they are in the tribulation's heightened state of persecution.
the seduced do not know tha they are seduced.
there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth
you said Michael and his angels overcame Satan
while i am sure they did, that is not what the scripture implies....
the scripture shows that it was the dead in Christ that overcame him by the blood of the lamb, and that they died.
so in Rev12 specifically, it was not Michael or the angels that are referenced as overomcoming by the blood of the Lamb.
it's the dead in Christ. Michael has not died.
agreed
I have already stated that the war in heaven and the casting down of Satan coincide with the beginning of the Gospel Age and the tribulation, which are the same time period. That means it happens approximately in the first century; nothing more specific can be said with any authority whatsoever.
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Hi vinsight4u,
I am familiar with the convolutions of the futurist effort; I used to be one, but have rejected it in toto for a more logical reading. Statements like "people will still be alive in other places on the planet" are the kind of make-it-work additions that threw up the red flags for me.
The 144,000 are not those who survive a war or those specially designated to lead the government of Jesus on earth. 144,000 represents the entirety of God's people: 12 x 12 x 1000, or the descendents of the twelve tribes of Israel, the spiritual descendents of the 12 apostles and an exponentially larger number symbolized by 1000. It is a symbolic number just like every other number in Revelation. That is why the Heavenly city has the same measurements in Ch. 21: the place prepared for us.
Believing that Satan can be released and deceive all nations following 1000 years of Jesus Christ's reign on earth does not speak well for the futurists' version of Jesus Christ--and I fully intend to attack this reading without relent.
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zeke37
IMO...
well, in Rev12 he is cast out and deceivs the whole world,
and even specifically goes after the descendants of the woman
who hold the commandments and have the testimonly of Jesus Christ.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
so, here, he is not bound or sealed.10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
but in Rev20 he is bound so as not to deceive the nations till after the 1000 years are expired.
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
if you think he is cast down now, or has a limitation on him now, 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
why is he deceiving the nations today?
see how it is obviously not the same?
no, the gospel has not yet been preached to every tongue/nation...
that will not happen until the day that the Lord Comes.
so the events from 9-14 are specific to this soon coming (imo) end time, and not history.
infact, Mat24 9-26 is all specific to this soon coming (imo) end time, and not history.
again i disagree...especially about Jesus being the first.
the "bow" that the rider carries is "toxon" and only has but one meaning.
a cheap fabric immitation
it is not referencing Christ.
sure it will take time. but that doesn't mean your interp. is correct.
9-14 is future
15-26 is future, yet still before the Lord returns.
again, i disagree.
while i can understand why some view most or all of Mat24 as historic, i don't agree.
i've been there before with others.
if it had been historic, then IMMIDIATELY after those days that the temple was destroyed,
Christ would have already come and gathered His elect.
and that has not occured yet.
i agree...but we see a difference in the "when".
i disagree.
end of the time of the Jews? huh?
sure it can, because of reasons already stated.
and? the elect don't...not all saints...only the elect.
many saints on earth will be deceived/seduced in that time.
but not the elect...
and those elect will be the ones that will not take his mark or worship him.
they are here because they were faithfull and died in Christ.
the tribulation and te mark of the beast are not 2000 years long.
there is no delema
one pre mill harvest of firstfruits, that teach the seduced ones during the Mill.
and one harvest at Mill's end, for those that the first fruits taught.
what do you mean by multiple versions of saaints?
i believe in one judgement day only.
how is that? I believe in the raising of the dead. i believe in Judgement.
i believe that while the second death has no bearing on those in Rev20:4, they are not judged yet, until their work is done after the 1000 years.
we know that their determination will be positive, but they have not been judged yet.
no it has not already happened. the church is not apostate yet.
what conumdrum above are you refering to???
you are back stepping here.
you said that it was Michael and his angels that had overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb,
when i said you were wrong, because that scripture also shows that those who overcame, did so even unto death.
Michael has not died.
so far, you have failed to persuade me.
i do understand how you came to your conclusions, but i disagree, for the reasons stated.
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The woman's garland of twelve starts represents the twelve tribes, meaning that this child--Jesus--if from the Jewish lineage.
The Messiah is born, rules, then is taken up to God's throne--thus beginning the Church. The church doesn't actually flee; this is a vision, and "fleeing" to the wilderness represents the protection of the church to coincide with the limitations placed on Satan and his demons.
We know that Satan was on the earth in the Old Testament, ergo, this "casting down" of Satan is the same as the "binding" in Ch. 20. We see this same thing with Job: "And the Lord said to Satan, 'Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not lay a hand on his person'."
Satan is allowed to attack, but is under limitation. I have given other examples previously of how Satan is limited.
Satan is "the accuser" this trait doesn't start at the tribulation; why would it have to?
I don't know what you mean by hundreds of thousands of years. My position is that the "casting down" happens after the cricifixion and at the start of the tribulation--sometime in the first century. Perhaps there is some confusion from on of the larger posts between Zeke and me.
v 10 ....accused them...
v11 ...they overcame him...
I think you and I are in agreement that Satan was cast down before the tribulation; where we disagree is when the tribulation started. My position is that it started in the first century. I have made a cogent case for this in harmony with all other scripture.
I agree that when the ten horns turn on the harlot it will seem like "the great tribulation," but that is only because we have had it easy for so long. Great tribulations have been ongoing around the world for 2000 years. This hour will be a big problem for the pre-tribbers, just like any pre-tribbers that might have been during the Roman empire--if there were any. Revelation was written as a letter of hope and encouragement for all Christians at all times.
But if you are going to stick with the end time tribulation position, then you have the problem I pointed out to Zeke: the saints in Ch.20 are identified as those from the tribulation; so what about everyone else?
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There is no discrepancy between chapters 12 and 20 as I have stated repeatedly that the "casting down" is the same as his binding and being sealed. What is being said is "Satan, the deceiver, has been cast down/sealed so that he cannot deceive until the 1000 years are over." He has not ceased being the deceiver as ch. 20 states, and will do it again given the chance--when the limitations are removed.
And I have also reiterated that this limitation has to do with the protection of the church: meaning that the Gospel or the church cannot be destroyed, the truth will always be available. This is analogous to the Job response I gave previously, Satan was able to do anything he wanted to do except kill him.
The only problem is the one that you have to create by saying, "Why is he deceiving the nations today?" Nowhere did I say or claim the Bible says that people cannot be deceived. It's absurd to imply that my position states that deception has been eradicated for 1000 years.
I never stated that the Gospel has been preached to every nation. I said that the preaching of the Gospel indicates a long passage of time before the end. We are currently in that long passage of time.
Verse 15 is certainly history. Jesus had just spoken about the temple being destroyed, then was asked when. He said when you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel, run for it. This is historical fact. Or are you denying that the temple was destroyed?
It means "bow," and comes from the root of some simple fabric; this is why some think the correct interpretation should be "sash" rather than "bow."
***Correction edit: "Some think the correct interpretation should be sash" is not the case; it should be that some think this "bow" carries with it the connotation of the "simple fabric" of a sash.
But who else rides a white horse? Jesus at His Second Coming. So he is associated with white/righteousness, wears a crown, and conquers. Who else could this be but Jesus Christ at his first Advent?
No, we are in what I have identified as the "long passage of time" in each. "The end" in part 1 is future, and the 6th seal in part 2 is still future. No other interpretation makes sense.
Same as above.
As defined by Daniel. I know you'll disagree that Daniel 9 is fulfilled, so let's not go there.
There most certainly is a dilemma: Ch. 20 shows a future vision of the saints in heaven who did not take the mark during the tribulation. If Revelation was written for all Christians at all times for hope and encouragement, which it was, then what encouragement is it for those who don't see themselves in Heaven because they died before the tribulation?
I know how you're going to respond to this. The fact is, those saints identified in 20 are all the saints, they are everyone in Heaven at/after judgement. There are only two categories of people here: those of the first resurrection, the saints, and those going to the second death, the unsaved. There are no pre-trib saints or post-trib saints; this means that the tribulation extends for the entire Gospel age, which is supported Biblically and historically.
What do I mean? "only pre mill harvest of firstfruits, that teach the seduced ones during the mill." That's what I mean.
If you had any Biblical support for this, you would have posted it. If there's any mention of a "millennium" anywhere else in the Bible, let me know. In fact, all he said when asked about the end was after the Gospel was preached to all nations, the 6th seal is opened, then the harvest--that's it.
20:4-7 is a vision of the saints assured destiny intended for anyone being put to death for Christ. This is the hope for someone, say, being thrown to the lions during Roman times. The 1000 years is now, as I've described it is the supernatural, out-of-time equivalent of the 42 months.
Ever heard of Benny Hinn? The conundrum is the vision of the saints described above.
I still have no idea what you're arguing here. I don't know why you are mentioning Michael dying--I never stated anything like that.
My position is that the casting down of Satan is after the crucifixion and at the start of the tribulation. The casting down is because of and under the authority of the Blood of the Lamb.
I am not saying that Michael died, or that the brethren were involved in the war in Heaven--never did. Satan is overcome by the Blood of the Lamb, that's it. The issue was originally on the timing of the casting down, and has been stated above, again. 1 John 3:8,
"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."
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I don't see where Revelation indicates that there is anything to follow other than final judgement. In all likelihood Armageddon ang Gog/Magog are the spiritual and physical sides of the same event.
"Gog and Magog" are merely symbols borrowed from the Old Testament as John does throughout Revelation.
"It is done" and "God...devoured them" are pretty decisive.
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I think he's always the accuser--both before and after. That is his nature: accuser, deceiver, all around scumbag. He never started or ended being any of these things.
I think the persecution of the woman is the tribulation.
I also think the approximate time of the tribulation is the approximate time of the 2nd, 3rd, and fourth seals, which affect everyone--the sea and earth.
The woman is all of God's people; she is the 144,000: 12 x 12 x 1000. Those of the 12 tribes x those of the 12 apostles x exponentially larger number. She is both Israel and Gospel Age church. She is the church in the context of Revelation as it pertains to the Gospel Age.
The Messiah if from the 12 stars: the lineage of the 12 tribes. The Messiah brought forth the church. The church will be married when the Bridegroom returns.
The woman is not "hiding" in the wilderness: she is protected/nourished there for the entire 42 month Gospel Age, meaning that, like Job, she can be persecuted, but not killed.
I agree that the church will not be in Israel because what is being described in Matt. 24 has already happened. Now, I know where this inevitably leads, so let me leave it with a few statements of fact:
1) Daniel put forth a prophecy stating the temple would be destroyed.
2) Jesus said the temple would be destroyed.
3) The temple was destroyed.
4) There is no 3rd temple.
5) Whichever side on takes on the matter of fulfillment in Daniel 9 and Matthew 24--either past or future--one of these sides is wrong.
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zeke37
IMO...
but you just said that he cannot deceive until the 1000 years are over?
so, you don't think he deceives today?
i think you are incredibly wrong.
are you saying that he could have destroyed the church before a certain point,
and again he can after the Millennium?
i disagree.
you said he is bound or sealed today, so that he cannot deceive today.
yet you say people are deceived?
what am i misunderstanding?
who do you think deceives people today?
you said it was all past from the 15th verse,
and i showed you that it cannot be, by that simple statement and many others in Mat24.
i am denying two things here.
A. that Jesus was even talking about the physical temple made of bricks.
B. that the A of D is history.
what makes up the temple of God in the NT?
no. it means a cheap fabric immitation...the cheapest fabric.
this is the false Christ.
Christ's arrival on the White Horse in Rev19 is much different,
and is at the end of the trib, not the beginning.
exactly...
now think about this...
who else is called a lamb?
who else is called a lion?
who else is called bright morning star?
who else wants to be like the most high?
this rider is not Christ.
he is associated with a fales righteousness, a fake, an immitation, a knock off, a counterfit
and one single crown.
see the description of Christ in Rev19...it is very different.
i disagree with your interpretation. no other one makes sense to you perhaps.
but that still does not make you right.
ditto
ok.
what makes you think they are in heaven?
huh?
if they died before the tribulation then they would be the dead in Christ
and return with Him, to earth, so as to be raised here, as per 1Thes4.
Rev20:4 shows three groups that reign.
each is divided by the word AND, a polysendendent(sp?)
just like the days in Gen1 are divided.
so the groups are...
the martyrs for God (past)
the martyrs for Christ (past)
the elect during the hour of temptation.
doubt it.
again, what makes you think any of them are in heaven?
i can understand how some would read it that way.
i do not.
i read about a first resurrection, which we agree about...it happens at Christ's Coming.
but that leaves open the possibility for a second resurrection....
else why bother to say first to begin with.
i believe that the fooled Christians of the end time tribulation(hour of temptation)
will be refined during this future 1000 years
and be part of the second resurrection if they truly love the Lord
I reference Ez44 and of course Rev20
well, we are taught about a possible seduction 2Cor11
we are taught about the firstfruits of Rev14
we are taught about a time when the ones that did not go astray, teach the ones that did Ez44
so again, what do you mean by multiple versions of saints?
well, get em intrieged first, then hit em with scripture. see above.
by implication there is.
well, He said a lot more than that...
but sure...we are obv. not to the point where the gospel is preached to all nations yet.
so that part of the chapter is not fulfilled yet.
therefore it is not history.
I disagree...
and you may have given your opinion
but you certainly did not show this so called supernatural, out of time equivalent
as being anything more than that, opinion.
ya there are many false teachers and money grubbing scum bags that claim Christ.
but there has been since Acts.
it is nothing new.
the church is not apostate yet...maybe confused and even stupid at times...but not apostate.
when they actually worship another as God, then that is when they will be apostate.
of course I expect thses false teachers to herald Satan as the returned Christ, being fully seduced themselves.
well, i thought you did say that, and i even quoted you doing it.
i did not understand why you did, so perhaps it was just a reading/structure problem...
i can pull up your quote again if ya wanna see.
you said that the ones that died in Rev12,
who overcame by the blood of the Lamb, even to death,
was Michael etc.
certainly not the way i see it.
i see his influence everywhere today...
from Economics and Education,
to Politics and Religion.
his limitation is that he is in heven today, not able to come here to and fro as he did in the past.
but he will be cast out and to the earth for his short time
and when does He do that?
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
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Yes, I believe there is deception and there are deceiving spirits. But as I have maintained all along the casting down, binding, and sealing are all equated with the protection of the church. Satan is limited in what he can do to it, as in the example of Job.
Satan's binding means that he cannot destroy the truth of the Gospel, it will always be there. And there is a big difference between telling a lie, and someone actually believing it. Romans 1:25 covers this: "They have exchanged the truth for a lie." So if someone allows himself to be deceived, it's on him.
We know that the truth of the Gospel will be protected for the 1260 days, as Rev.11 tells us the two witnesses (the church and the Gospel) will prophesy for this entire Gospel/tribulation age. When their testimony is finished they will be overcome by the beast from the bottomless pit--the unbinding of Satan.
Below is the entire post on the matter. Please highlight the part where I stated "all was past from the 15th verse." Correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like your saying that I wrote that the entire part 2 was past.
"Not quite. Jesus here answers 2 questions with 2 parallel timelines--just as he structured Revelation. Part 1 goes from verse 4 through 14--"the end."
What you are describing above are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals (Jesus is the 1st), that's why He says they are only the beginning; then follows a long passage of time indicated by the preaching of the Gospel to all nations--this will take some time, obviously.
Part 2, Verse 15 begins again back at the destruction of the temple, then the start of the tribulation, another long passage of time (the 5th seal: "how long, O Lord until You judge?") indicated here by the many false christs and prophets that arise, then the end of the tribulation and the opening of the 6th seal, which he describes verbatim.
Revelation 6 and Matt 24 are in complete harmony both structurally and thematically, and both pick up where Daniel 9 ended.
There is allowed here a future destruction of the bodily temple in the future since the time of the Gentile will mirror the end of the time of the Jews."
Okay, I'll just repost the same 5 facts from my reply to vinsight:
1) Daniel put forth a prophecy stating the temple would be destroyed.
2) Jesus said the temple would be destroyed.
3) The temple was destroyed.
4) There is no 3rd temple.
5) Whichever side on takes on the matter of fulfillment in Daniel 9 and Matthew 24--either past or future--one of these sides is wrong.
Again, from the Matt. 24 repost above:
"There is allowed here a future destruction of the bodily temple in the future since the time of the Gentile will mirror the end of the time of the Jews."
Imitation fabric? Imitation of what... real fabric?
Why couldn't I find anything about this being imitation? Could it be that the futurists embellish upon this in order to satisfy their need for the first horseman to be their antichrist?
Cheap/inexpensive/simple would be in alignment with the humble origins of the Christ child.
I'm no Greek expert so if you can post a link to concordance describing this imitation fabric, I would like to see it.
The symbolism and context just do not support this. Revelation concerns the entire time between two Advents, so it would necessarily begin with His first coming.
Of course they are different: His two comings are entirely different ventures; differences are to be expected.
Well, Jesus came, we have earthquakes, wars, disease, famines, etc., but the world has not ended yet. And the 2nd temple has been destroyed, but Jesus has not returned. So, I think it's safe to say that, yes, we are in the long passage of time described in each of the two parts.
Gee, I don't know: thrones, reigning with Christ. It's either Heaven or Des Moines.
There are only two groups of people being described here:
1) Those from the tribulation that did not accept the mark.
2) Those of the second resurrection that go to the second death.
Rev 20:5,
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/FONT]"
In the above verse, the first line is referring to the second resurrection and death. The second part of the verse is referring back to the saints being envisioned, that's what this section is about at to whom it was intended.
Because the first resurrection refers specifically to the second coming and the harvesting of the saints. The second resurrection refers only to those going on to the second death.
1000 years to refine a fooled Christian? Doesn't say much for the Christian or your supposed teachers. What about the fooled Christians that have died already? When/how do they get refined?
A pre-trib rapture, then some other removal of saints later. I know some futurists believe this, but I don't know about you specifically.
Where?
I didn't say it was history; I said we are in the long passage of time indicated in both parts of Matt. 24. At least do me the courtesy of reading my replies before disagreeing with them.
It is my opinion based on the harmony of the parallel visions, consistency of symbolism, multiple witnesses throughout the New Testament.
I think you're forgetting that one of Satan's characteristics is subtlety. And I disagree that the apostate church is when they worship another god. Many "Christians" will hear the words "Depart from me, I never knew you."
Revelation and history indicate that the apostate church has been around for at least as long at the Holy Roman Empire.
Yes, please find the post you're referring to and show it to me in your reply. If I did in fact write that, it was a mistake and I would need to revise it. But I don't think I did.
I addressed this at the top of this post. His binding does not preclude him from having any influence at all, as in the example of Job. Satan's binding is specifically related to the Two Witnesses/Gospel.
This is an excellent example in support of my position. Satan has been bound/restrained; at some point he will be unrestrained, and this will be:
1) The hour when the ten horns turn on the harlot.
2) When the two witnesses are overcome.
3) The "Gog/Magog" war.
4) The final 30 days of Daniel's 1290 days.
These are all the same time period. Then the Second Coming and destruction.
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I never stated that the first resurrection takes place in 20. The subject matter of Chapter 20 is Satan and Judgement Day.
Verses 4 - 7 are a parenthetical insert showing the saints' assured destiny--they are from the first resurrection.
Gog and Magog are clearly gathered after the 1000 years:
Rev. 20:7-8,
"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is the sand of the sea."
"Gog and Magog" are simply symbols borrowed from the OT to represent the enemies of God's people.
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