666

[yeshuasavedme]

You have hit upon the truth. However, not just the Ottoman Turks, but all the Islamic conquerors who ruled over Jerusalem are the 7th head of the beast. Islam has now trampled Jersualem and the Holy Spot underfoot for about 1260 years now, fulfilling prophecy. (see Rev. 11:2-3).

As for the 8th head of the beast, IMO, it is Hitler, with his Third Reich (of Rome) being the third six of the 6-6-6 trilogy.

Barry

But when did Hitler rule Jerusalem?
It is Jerusalem, only, that the thrones of the eight count in, and they are nations, not individual kings, as you say.

 

[justified]

When people try to make Nero equal to the number 666 they add an extra 'n'. When you add an extra 'n' you are making the name Nero into Neron. There is nothing to suggest that Nero was called Neron (correct me if i'm wrong).

I already have. We have Nerwn attested as his name in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Not to mention the church fathers see Nero as the antichrist over and over again.

And when people add an extra n so they can make Nero's name equal 666 they fall into the problem of final values.

Which I have already addressed very briefly.

So because of this you then say about the 616 thing. You may think its 616 but im going to believe the Bible when it says 666.

If you could read Greek, you'd understand the Bible says both.

Irenaeus who lived A.D. 120-202 already knew of the 616 variation and discounted it as an error (the dead sea scoll which says 616 dates to after Irenaeus died):

Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end), — I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. — Adv. haer. 5.30​

Which is extremely important! Irenaeus did discount it, but he knew of it, which means there was an extremely early understanding that Nero was the antichrist. The dropping of that Nun in the Aramaic form of Nero is the only reason to explain why 616 would pop up at all. What Dead Sea Scroll says 616?

Look, the issue that we're going to come down to here is the genre of the apocalypse, and what it was meant to say. Perhaps it would be best to concentrate on that. Either way, I have to get to the Bod now.
​

 

[interpreter]

But when did Hitler rule Jerusalem?
It is Jerusalem, only, that the thrones of the eight count in, and they are nations, not individual kings, as you say.

Ruling Jerusalem was definitely in Hitler's plans. One of his biggest allies was Yasser Arafat's uncle, the Grand Mufti, the Islamic ruler-in-exile of Jerusalem whom Hitler wanted to reinstate. (But those days were cut short for the sake of the elect).
The main proof as i noted is that the name of Hitler's (one man) reign is the Third Reich (of Rome) or Third Six of the 6-6-6 trilogy .

At least we are in agreement about head # 7 being the Islamic rulers of Jerusalem?

Barry

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

You can make anyone the antichrist if you stretch enough. I think it's david hasselhoff:

http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch/index.shtml

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Ruling Jerusalem was definitely in Hitler's plans. One of his biggest allies was Yasser Arafat's uncle, the Grand Mufti, the Islamic ruler-in-exile of Jerusalem whom Hitler wanted to reinstate. (But those days were cut short for the sake of the elect).
The main proof as i noted is that the name of Hitler's (one man) reign is the Third Reich (of Rome) or Third Six of the 6-6-6 trilogy .

At least we are in agreement about head # 7 being the Islamic rulers of Jerusalem?

Barry

Yes, I do think so.
The times Jerusalem has been truly self ruled don't count, though.
I don't think they are truly self ruled at this time -as their strings are pulled and they move according to the marionet's tug; but from God's point of view, they may be counted as self ruled at this time????? I'm not really dogmatic on this part and willing to see it differently, if truly shown.
I do not believe that any Believer who is watching and praying that they be counted worthy to escape all these tings coming on the inhabitants of the whole world will be on earth to see the final man of sin, however, as I believe the Church must be removed, taken out of the way, gathered to Him in the air -"laqach" pre-trib and pre-wrath, for the darkness to cover the whole earth -after the light is gone, i.e., the Church in which dwells the glory of God in the measure of promise...

Figure it out from this -if possible.
http://www.centuryone.com/hstjrslm.html

 

[whitestar]

You can make anyone the antichrist if you stretch enough. I think it's david hasselhoff:

http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch/index.shtml

oooooooookkkkkkkkkk I guess this means any serious discussion on this subject was not really wanted in the first place....let alone to be taken seriously...unless, of course, they agreed with you.

sigh.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

Yeah, that was a joke.

 

[OhhJim]

Yeah, that was a joke.

But I thought you made an excellent point. For those who are willing to see points, of course!

 

[OttawaUk]

Okay, how can 666 be Nero when Nero died before John wrote Revelation?

Where was the False Prophet? Where was the mark? Where was everyone who was required to take the mark but refused, killed? Where was the whole world worshipping Nero? Where was he GIVEN power over all nations of the world? Where were the 10 kings who had power under Nero? Where was the destruction of Babylon by the 10 kings?

None of this is historical!?

I don't understand how anyone can possibly make that connection.

666 is not Nero, 666 is still coming.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

Okay, how can 666 be Nero when Nero died before John wrote Revelation?

Where was the False Prophet? Where was the mark? Where was everyone who was required to take the mark but refused, killed? Where was the whole world worshipping Nero? Where was he GIVEN power over all nations of the world? Where were the 10 kings who had power under Nero? Where was the destruction of Babylon by the 10 kings?

None of this is historical!?

I don't understand how anyone can possibly make that connection.

666 is not Nero, 666 is still coming.

Thanks you, you summed up what I have been trying to say.

 

[justified]

Okay, how can 666 be Nero when Nero died before John wrote Revelation?

Where was the False Prophet? Where was the mark? Where was everyone who was required to take the mark but refused, killed? Where was the whole world worshipping Nero? Where was he GIVEN power over all nations of the world? Where were the 10 kings who had power under Nero? Where was the destruction of Babylon by the 10 kings?

None of this is historical!?

I don't understand how anyone can possibly make that connection.

666 is not Nero, 666 is still coming.

I can answer all of these if you work with me. But it's a process. We start with this question:

--> What is the genre and intention of Revelation?

This is fundamental. If we do not agree on this, how could we possibly agree on anything else?

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

Like I said before:

You can make anyone the antichrist if you stretch enough. I think it's david hasselhoff:

http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch/index.shtml

If it's that complicated a process, then as far as I'm concerned, it's no better a theory than David Haselhoff.
http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch/index.shtml

 

[justified]

If it's that complicated a process, then as far as I'm concerned, it's no better a theory than David Haselhoff.

yea, why should we actually have to study?

 

[OttawaUk]

I can answer all of these if you work with me. But it's a process. We start with this question:

--> What is the genre and intention of Revelation?

This is fundamental. If we do not agree on this, how could we possibly agree on anything else?

I agree it is a prophecy.

Which already negates Nero. Why would God give John a prophecy which already took place?

 

[Jipsah]

Okay, how can 666 be Nero when Nero died before John wrote Revelation?

He didn't.

 

[Jipsah]

Which already negates Nero. Why would God give John a prophecy which already took place?

Are you saying that any prophecy that was fulfilled before our time wasn't a prophecy at all? Wow, that's handy.

Besides that, you';re confusing a prophecy with a prognostication. A prophecy begins "Thus saith the Lord God...". It may then go on to deal with the past, the present or the future. A prognostication deals strictly with the future.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

[/i]
yea, why should we actually have to study?

I wasn't talking about having to study or not. I was talking about whether you have to stretch to fit your belief into the bible or not.

 

[interpreter]

He didn't.

Nero died over 20 years before John returned from the Isle of patmos with the Revelation in 96 AD.

Barry

 

[interpreter]

Yes, I do think so.
The times Jerusalem has been truly self ruled don't count, though.
I don't think they are truly self ruled at this time -as their strings are pulled and they move according to the marionet's tug; but from God's point of view, they may be counted as self ruled at this time????? I'm not really dogmatic on this part and willing to see it differently, if truly shown.
I do not believe that any Believer who is watching and praying that they be counted worthy to escape all these tings coming on the inhabitants of the whole world will be on earth to see the final man of sin, however, as I believe the Church must be removed, taken out of the way, gathered to Him in the air -"laqach" pre-trib and pre-wrath, for the darkness to cover the whole earth -after the light is gone, i.e., the Church in which dwells the glory of God in the measure of promise...

Figure it out from this -if possible.
http://www.centuryone.com/hstjrslm.html

If u agree that the Islamic rulers of Jerusalem are head # 7, then u hold the historicist view, that the Revelation has been unfolding for quite sometime, and began unfolding "with speed" (as we are told in Rev.1:1,3).
So that means the futurist view is wrong, and it possible (or probable) that head # 8 has already come and gone also. l sincerely believe it was Hitler and his Third Reich. That would mean Christians have already gone through the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation, which is exactly how long WW II lasted (starting with the bombing of Pearl Harbor when it truly became a world war).

There cannot be a pre-trib rapture because in the last days it is to be just as in the days of Noah -- the bad guys will be taken away and the good guys left.
We are now in ch. 16 of the Revelation and experiencing the 7 last plagues, which includes global warming (plague #4, now upon us). Next to come is the Battle of Ar Mageddon. Those left on earth after the bad guys are gone will take part in a glorious thousand year reign of the Church.

Barry

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

If u agree that the Islamic rulers of Jerusalem are head # 7, then u hold the historicist view, that the Revelation has been unfolding for quite sometime, and began unfolding "with speed" (as we are told in Rev.1:1,3).
So that means the futurist view is wrong, and it possible (or probable) that head # 8 has already come and gone also. l sincerely believe it was Hitler and his Third Reich. That would mean Christians have already gone through the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation, which is exactly how long WW II lasted (starting with the bombing of Pearl Harbor when it truly became a world war).

There cannot be a pre-trib rapture because in the last days it is to be just as in the days of Noah -- the bad guys will be taken away and the good guys left.
We are now in ch. 16 of the Revelation and experiencing the 7 last plagues, which includes global warming (plague #4, now upon us). Next to come is the Battle of Ar Mageddon. Those left on earth after the bad guys are gone will take part in a glorious thousand year reign of the Church.

Barry

Ummm. ok. And when did this stuff happen?:

Rev 8:7-9:8
(7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mixed with blood, and they were cast on the earth. And the third part of trees was burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
(8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea. And the third part of the sea became blood.
(9) And the third part of the creatures in the sea, those having souls, died; and the third part of the ships was destroyed.
(10) And the third angel sounded, and a great star burning like a lamp fell from the heaven, and it fell on the third part of the rivers and on the fountains of waters.
(11) And the name of the star is called Wormwood, and a third part of the waters became wormwood. And many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.
(12) And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was stricken, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars, so that the third part of them was darkened, and the day did not appear for a third part of it, and the night also.
(13) And I saw and I heard one angel flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to sound!
(1) And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key of the abyss.
(2) And it opened the bottomless pit. And there arose a smoke out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace. And the sun and air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And out of the smoke came forth locusts onto the earth. And authority was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have authority.
(4) And they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months. And their torment was like a scorpion's torment when he stings a man.
(6) And in those days men will seek death and will not find it. And they will long to die, and death will flee from them.
(7) And the shapes of the locusts were like horses prepared for battle. And on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
(8) And they had hairs like the hairs of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions.