501c3 = "Being in Covenant with Baal"

[Pavel Mosko]

This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!"

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.

This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Unlike his other videos that are much much longer he doesn't really develop or explain his claims here that well. He usually explains them in terms of "being yoked together" with other non-Christian groups who also take the same tax exempt agreement. It's a little bit of a guilt by association argument, and I would love it if someone challenged his claims, logic etc. because all Americans in a similar way are "in covenant" with each other by virtue of being citizens if you really want to run with that kind of thinking.



I also found this Messianic web site that explains the thinking a bit more.

Hebrew Vision News: Is Your Church A Part Of The Beast System? It Is If It Is A 501 c3!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!"

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.

This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.

Pavel, I don't know this guy and I don't know yet what his overall views are, but just from what I'm hearing in the video, it almost sounds like he advocates some kind of "Kingdom Now Theology."

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Pavel, I don't know this guy and I don't know yet what his overall views are, but just from what I'm hearing in the video, it almost sounds like he advocates some kind of "Kingdom Now Theology."

Yeah there is some kind of assumptions like that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Unlike his other videos that are much much longer he doesn't really develop or explain his claims here that well. He usually explains them in terms of "being yoked together" with other non-Christian groups who also take the same tax exempt agreement. It's a little bit of a guilt by association argument, and I would love it if someone challenged his claims, logic etc. because all Americans in a similar way are "in covenant" with each other by virtue of being citizens if you really want to run with that kind of thinking.



I also found this Messianic web site that explains the thinking a bit more.

Hebrew Vision News: Is Your Church A Part Of The Beast System? It Is If It Is A 501 c3!

I'd challenge it, but I'm afraid I know too little about him and his ideas at the moment to do so. As I'm googling, I'm not seeing much on him just yet.

 

[Taodeching]

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season

I agree with this pat and it would be nice if Churches weren't muzzled at all. In a way 501c3 ties the Churches to the Government. I disagree that 501c3 = "Being in covenant with Baal" though it may be close now than in was last year

 

[paul1149]

In a kinder, gentler time, I don't think there were any obvious practical ramifications to churches being 501c3. But at this point it's not difficult to foresee churches dependent on government tax incentives for substantial amounts of their revenues being pressed hard to curtail certain doctrines unacceptable to the dominant political ethos or losing the exemption.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

In a kinder, gentler time, I don't think there were any obvious practical ramifications to churches being 501c3. But at this point it's not difficult to foresee churches dependent on government tax incentives for substantial amounts of their revenues being pressed hard to curtail certain doctrines unacceptable to the dominant political ethos or losing the exemption.

I became interested in this topic back in 2016. It's been hard to understand as far as finding stuff on the web, at least free materials. I'm interested in how the non 501c3 churches etc. operate. And coming from Social Science background, I'm a little curious on how it was popularized.

I knew a ministry that was not 501c3 that gave out warnings to not expect tax statements for deductions etc. and to adjust their donations downward if that was a problem or issue. But I'm a little foggy if that is how churches operated around 1954 and before.


I did find this article Googling the history of this, which looks kind of interesting for folks interested in the topic.

The Political Ban in 501(c)(3): Its Odd History | For Purpose Law Group

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!"

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.

This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.

The lines of logic were incomplete, so It's hard to evaluate them as coherent modes of thought.

What I get from googling 501c3 is that he is saying churches are being ruled by demonic oppression in exchange for tax exempt status.

The application of the demonic umbrella is similar to the charismatic/pentecostal prayer covering in theology except applied in the negative.

In terms of churches being under demonic influence, the closest I've heard in this regard was in relation to the controversial theology universal reconciliation. Sometimes proponents of this view equate Molech worship (burning babies) to eternal torment.

However, in terms of "baal" this doesn't really fit the scripture's greed dialogue, I'd say mammon would probably be a better identifier if money is the underlying reason.

 

[Sparagmos]

This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!"

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.

This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.

So I have a wild theory but admit that I didn’t research it yet... Is this guy fleecing his flock somehow and because he couldn’t get away with it as a 501c due to regulations, he makes his choice to forego the nonprofit status a matter of faith and prophecy?

 

[paul1149]

I'm interested in how the non 501c3 churches etc. operate.

I don't know. The other issue Mark identifies is incorporation. It's hard to see how a large church could survive in today's legal environment without incorporation, or without the tax exemption to drive donations. Coincidentally, Mark has been facilitating house church formation for a couple of years now. A year ago these concepts may have seemed quaint. Things are evolving quickly.

 

[bèlla]

I understand what he’s getting at and familiarity with charitable giving and philanthropy helps. I agree with the principal for myself and won’t accept outside investment for that reason. Not in venture capital or donations. You sacrifice control when you do.

It would be difficult for most churches to employ a similar approach unless leadership possessed the skills to generate income without depending on donations for sustenance.

I know three people starting breweries. All of them used profit making strategies of the first vehicle (their business) to fund the bigger venture. It’s a form of leveraging that’s really savvy.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[topher694]

This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!"

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.

This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.

As a minister of a 501c3 that I setup and run I can tell you this idea of being influenced about what you can or can't say because of it is WAAAAAY overblown. I've talked to many pastors about it over the years and, frankly, no one really cares. If they take it away, so be it, we'll keep doing what we are doing. In fact, we all pretty much agree someday that day will come, we just don't know if it will be in our lifetimes or not. Far more pastors are influenced by what their congregation thinks than what the government thinks.

That being said in regards to this anti-501c3/Baal thing... Part what I have always done is heavily research the more fringe/extreme fringe ideas in Christianity and/or doctrines that go against what our particular church believes. The idea being, if someone comes into my church asking about some fringe thing, I'm not caught unaware and can be ready with a measured response. It has actually served me very well. This can be anything from Christian flat-earth to prophecy is not for today.

Included in my studies has been this anti-501c3 movement. The bottom line is this: after all my studies the only topic I will flat out not engage someone on or entertain in the slightest is this one. My research has shown me that besides being outlandish and in no way biblical, proponents of it to tend to be a flat out nasty, awful and un-engageable. I've encountered it personally 2 or 3 times, most often with someone sending a message to our email or facebook page and these are the only messages I will flat out ignore.

 

[topher694]

Oh, and btw. Not being a 501c3 in NO WAY removes anyone from being subject to government oversight in the areas that apply to a 501c3, all the same regulations apply whether you are one or not. I am still subject to the same laws either way.

 

[NotreDame]

This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!"

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.

This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.

Some history about the person guest speaker on the right, Mark Taylor. He prophesied twice now about Trump and struck out twice. The first was in 2011, the second was regarding the 2020 election. So, scrutinize his words carefully.

So, 501(c)3 is the granting of a tax exemption from federal taxes for nonprofits, such as, for example, churches. However, to maintain this exemption, churches for instance, may not directly or indirectly, support, participate, or intervene in, on behalf of, or oppose, a specific candidate for office. They may, however, express their views and beliefs on important political/societal issues, such as abortion, same sex marriage, without risking their 501(c)3 status.

Apparently, Mark perceives 501(c)3 as slavery for the churches. He doesn’t provide much substantive support for this view. He said something about “money” in the first segment but I couldn’t discern what exactly he said in regards to “money.”

Otherwise, churches/pastors/elders, are free to espouse their teachings as they render appropriate, and organize, structure, and guide the church as they deem proper. I’m not sure what Mark means by “slavery.”

 

[The Liturgist]

This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!"

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.

This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.

Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church under Dr. James Kennedy was, as far as I am aware, a 501(c)3, and so is the Presbyterian Church of America, and he had no qualms about voicing his political opinions. But in general, the main political issues which matter to conservative churches like abortion, euthanasia and so on can be freely discussed in an election year. If the Roman Catholic Church were to decide to excommunicate Biden, if he causes a further cultural deterioration against the values of Dignitatis Humanae, I think constitutionally the IRS would have to pound sand.

I mean, consider, Scientology, which is an obvious fraud, obtained 501(c)3 status. I have heard of a few cases of pastors being threatened with loss of tax exempt status, but their political activity was pretty extreme, and one can always form a PAC or a 501(c)4. Also, my understanding of the controversial Supreme Court ruling that allows corporations to donate to political campaigns via PACs also applies to 501(c)3s like churches, museums, charities, universities and other not for profit entities. The ability to do this is recent, but it greatly empowers churches which decide to use it.

As for the claim that being a 501(c)3 opens up a demonic portal causing your church to be ruled by Ba’al, that’s pretty far fetched to the point of silliness. I would argue its also gravely offensive to most American Christians, since most churches have 501(c)3 status.

 

[NotreDame]

Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church under Dr. James Kennedy was, as far as I am aware, a 501(c)3, and so is the Presbyterian Church of America, and he had no qualms about voicing his political opinions. But in general, the main political issues which matter to conservative churches like abortion, euthanasia and so on can be freely discussed in an election year. If the Roman Catholic Church were to decide to excommunicate Biden, if he causes a further cultural deterioration against the values of Dignitatis Humanae, I think constitutionally the IRS would have to pound sand.

I mean, consider, Scientology, which is an obvious fraud, obtained 501(c)3 status. I have heard of a few cases of pastors being threatened with loss of tax exempt status, but their political activity was pretty extreme, and one can always form a PAC or a 501(c)4. Also, my understanding of the controversial Supreme Court ruling that allows corporations to donate to political campaigns via PACs also applies to 501(c)3s like churches, museums, charities, universities and other not for profit entities. The ability to do this is recent, but it greatly empowers churches which decide to use it.

As for the claim that being a 501(c)3 opens up a demonic portal causing your church to be ruled by Ba’al, that’s pretty far fetched to the point of silliness. I would argue its also gravely offensive to most American Christians, since most churches have 501(c)3 status.

If the Roman Catholic Church were to decide to excommunicate Biden, if he causes a further cultural deterioration against the values of Dignitatis Humanae, I think constitutionally the IRS would have to pound sand.

I agree, assuming no ulterior political motive and use of their religious beliefs as a pretext.

As for the claim that being a 501(c)3 opens up a demonic portal causing your church to be ruled by Ba’al, that’s pretty far fetched to the point of silliness. I would argue its also gravely offensive to most American Christians, since most churches have 501(c)3 status

Right? Mark said 95% of churches, immediately backtracked and said they aren’t sure of the numbers, are in a covenant with Baal because of 501(c)(3). Unfortunately, he has a considerable following within Christianity.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

So I have a wild theory but admit that I didn’t research it yet... Is this guy fleecing his flock somehow and because he couldn’t get away with it as a 501c due to regulations, he makes his choice to forego the nonprofit status a matter of faith and prophecy?

I don't think so. Not based on his bio. He is a retired fire fighter that got internet famous for initially predicting/prophesying Trumps being elected in 2016 (with many critics, because he said this around 2012 and it looked like he was predicting Trump would run that year).

Anyway he was a sensation in some circles enough that they made a movie about him.

 

[The Liturgist]

Unfortunately, he has a considerable following within Christianity.

It can’t be that considerable because I’ve never heard of him, and I closely follow the news of all liturgical churches, which make up the majority of Christians (there are over a billion Catholics, 290 million Eastern Orthodox, 80 million Anglicans, 74 million Lutherans and 60 million Oriental Orthodox).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church under Dr. James Kennedy was, as far as I am aware, a 501(c)3, and so is the Presbyterian Church of America, and he had no qualms about voicing his political opinions. But in general, the main political issues which matter to conservative churches like abortion, euthanasia and so on can be freely discussed in an election year. If the Roman Catholic Church were to decide to excommunicate Biden, if he causes a further cultural deterioration against the values of Dignitatis Humanae, I think constitutionally the IRS would have to pound sand.

I mean, consider, Scientology, which is an obvious fraud, obtained 501(c)3 status. I have heard of a few cases of pastors being threatened with loss of tax exempt status, but their political activity was pretty extreme, and one can always form a PAC or a 501(c)4. Also, my understanding of the controversial Supreme Court ruling that allows corporations to donate to political campaigns via PACs also applies to 501(c)3s like churches, museums, charities, universities and other not for profit entities. The ability to do this is recent, but it greatly empowers churches which decide to use it.

As for the claim that being a 501(c)3 opens up a demonic portal causing your church to be ruled by Ba’al, that’s pretty far fetched to the point of silliness. I would argue its also gravely offensive to most American Christians, since most churches have 501(c)3 status.

Well the History article I linked to earlier is very educational on this. It seems like much of the motivation on the law going back to 1954 was because of political lobbying rather than election campaigning. Johnson somewhat muddied the waters, by including some language relating to campaigning in the original bill. Some people speculate he was getting revenge on a political enemy who defeated him in one election with the help of churches.