$50 now = 50 years off purgatory... What the...?

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TheListener

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Sorry to interrupt everyones Christmas cheer but I have yet another question.

I watched the movie 'Luther' on the weekend. Although I've read about the reformation this exaggerated sensationalist film made me think some more. In the movie the Pope appointed someone to collect money for building St Peter's Basilica and this guy went off and started selling pieces of paper which took time off purgatory depending on the amount you paid.

I thought we didn't know if purgatory was a temporal thing or not, (ie we didnt know if it took years or just an instant).

How wide spread were the abuses of "selling indulgences"? Didn't the Pope know about this? Was this really the main reason Luther revolted or do you think there was an ulterior motive?

Or was the whole 'abuse' thing fabricated?

There are people who claim selling indulgences may still be continuing in some parts of the world today.
 

Da_Funkey_Gibbon

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You'd need to do some pretty in depth research to find out to what extent the pope was responsible for selling indulgences, and it's obvious that Luther's revolt went far beyond just protesting abuses (which, indeed, is right and correct to do).

There was a good post by NewMan99 on the origin of indulgences, maybe someone can find it?
 
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TheListener

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aren't we already discussing this issue in the other thread you just started here?
http://www.christianforums.com/t4356252-st-peters-basillica-built-with-blood-money.html
Yeah, I started this one to concentrate more specifically on the abuses whereas the other thread is about how the Basilica was funded.

Some good books/links would be much appreciated.

Protestants make it out to be like all of the RCC was rotten to the core those days.

If the abuses were only isolated areas then that is understandable as even protestant churches have abuses. (Probably more widespread than the RCC but thats a different discussion which I will not debate) :)

So, were the abuses widespread or isolated?
 
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Da_Funkey_Gibbon

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Good thread on the reformation.
http://www.christianforums.com/t4162723-why-was-luther-condemned.html

So, were the abuses widespread or isolated?

As for that... well it's a huge question. I know in the English Church the idea that it was riddled with abuse before Henry VIII got his hands on it has now been disproved, however the Church in Europe was, I think, a rather different matter. I know Germany has particularly bad rep for abuses in that period.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Haha, Luther. I watched that movie and laughed most of the way through. It is soooooooo biased and exaggerated. Some of it was good - like the depiction of Luther's struggle with temptation and the devil. Most of it was ridiculous. You know the guy selling indulgences - the one making extravagant presentations about purgatory in public - was excommunicated as a heretic, right? I think in the film they only mentioned it in passing.
 
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Myfanwy

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Hardly. Sometimes a priest will ask for a donation to have a mass said for a dead relative of a parish member, but it's hardly compulsery.

My dad donated a small amount for one and about five ended up being said on her behalf.

I'm sorry. I don't know where you live but where I live the Bishop has directed that the donation for all Masses should be at least £10. One particular parish insisted that I pay that amount. It adds up to quite a lot when someone who is suffering from grief keeps having Masses said for their deceased relative who they believe is in purgatory.
 
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Myfanwy

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http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/stipends.htm

For many years, the regular amount of a stipend for a low Mass was one dollar. In many dioceses, the amount now determined by the bishop, which may be asked as a stipend for a low Mass is two dollars. [Editor's note: This was 1951. Today, in 2005, a stipend for a low Mass is usually $10-$15.]
 
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français

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Sorry to interrupt everyones Christmas cheer but I have yet another question.
hey, that's why this board is here!!







I watched the movie 'Luther' on the weekend. Although I've read about the reformation this exaggerated sensationalist film made me think some more. In the movie the Pope appointed someone to collect money for building St Peter's Basilica and this guy went off and started selling pieces of paper which took time off purgatory depending on the amount you paid.

I thought we didn't know if purgatory was a temporal thing or not, (ie we didnt know if it took years or just an instant).

How wide spread were the abuses of "selling indulgences"? Didn't the Pope know about this? Was this really the main reason Luther revolted or do you think there was an ulterior motive?

Or was the whole 'abuse' thing fabricated?

There are people who claim selling indulgences may still be continuing in some parts of the world today.


as for someone doing this.. i am disgraced at it, but i think the people knew that they wouldn't get year off purgatory.. i'm sure it was all for fun. :)
 
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Michelina

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Can. 945 ß1 In accordance with the approved custom of the Church, any priest who celebrates or concelebrates a Mass may accept an offering to apply the Mass for a specific intention.

ß2 It is earnestly recommended to priests that, even if they do not receive an offering, they celebrate Mass for the intentions of Christ's faithful, especially of those in need.

Can. 946 The faithful who make an offering so that Mass can be celebrated for their intention, contribute to the good of the Church, and by that offering they share in the Church's concern for the support of its ministers and its activities.

Can. 947 Even the semblance of trafficking or trading is to be entirely excluded from Mass offerings.

Can. 948 Separate Masses must be applied for the intentions of those for whom an individual offering, even if small, has been made and accepted.

Can. 949 One who is obliged to celebrate and apply Mass for the intentions of those who made an offering, is bound by this obligation even if the offering received is lost through no fault of his.

Can. 950 If a sum of money is offered for the application of Masses, but with no indication of the number of Masses to be celebrated, their number is to be calculated on the basis of the offering prescribed in the place where the donor resides, unless the donor's intention must lawfully be presumed to have been otherwise.

Can. 951 ß1 A priest who celebrates a number of Masses on the same day may apply each Mass for the intention for which an offering was made, subject however to the rule that, apart from Christmas Day, he may retain for himself the offering for only one Mass; the others he is to transmit to purposes prescribed by the Ordinary, while allowing for some compensation on the ground of an extrinsic title.

ß2 A priest who on the same day concelebrates a second Mass may not under any title accept an offering for that Mass.

Can. 952 ß1 The provincial council or the provincial Bishops' meeting is to determine by decree, for the whole of the province, what offering is to be made for the celebration and application of Mass. Nonetheless, it is permitted to accept, for the application of a Mass, an offering voluntarily made, which is greater, or even less, than that which has been determined.

ß2 Where there is no such decree, the custom existing in the diocese is to be observed.

ß3 Members of religious institutes of all kinds must abide by the decree or the local custom mentioned in ß1 and 2.

Can. 953 No one may accept more offerings for Masses to be celebrated by himself than he can discharge within a year.

Can. 954 If in certain churches or oratories more Masses are requested than can be celebrated there, these may be celebrated elsewhere, unless the donors have expressly stipulated otherwise.

Can. 955 ß1 One who intends to transfer to others the celebration of Masses to be applied, is to transfer them as soon as possible to priests of his own choice, provided he is certain that they are of proven integrity. He must transfer the entire offering received, unless it is quite certain that an amount in excess of the diocesan offering was given as a personal gift. Moreover, it is his obligation to see to the celebration of the Masses until such time as he has received evidence that the obligation has been undertaken and the offering received.

ß2 Unless it is established otherwise, the time within which Masses are to be celebrated begins from the day the priest who is to celebrate them receives them.

ß3 Those who transfer to others Masses to be celebrated are without delay to record in a book both the Masses which they have accepted and those which they have passed on, noting also the offerings for these Masses.

ß4 Each priest must accurately record the Masses which he has accepted to celebrate and those which he has in fact celebrated.

Can. 956 Each and every administrator of pious causes and those, whether clerics or lay persons, who are in any way obliged to provide for the celebration of Masses, are to transfer to their Ordinaries, in a manner to be determined by the latter, such Mass obligations as have not been discharged within a year.

Can. 957 The duty and the right to see that Mass obligations are fulfilled belongs, in the case of churches of the secular clergy, to the local Ordinary; in the case of churches of religious institutes or societies of apostolic life, to their Superiors.

Can. 958 ß1 The parish priest, as well as the rector of a church or other pious place in which Mass offerings are usually received, is to have a special book in which he is accurately to record the number, the intention and the offering of the Masses to be celebrated, and the fact of their celebration.

ß2 The Ordinary is obliged to inspect these books each year, either personally or through others.
 
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Bradford

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I'm sorry. I don't know where you live but where I live the Bishop has directed that the donation for all Masses should be at least £10. One particular parish insisted that I pay that amount.
10 quid? That's not that much money. Hardly enough to pay for anything these days, don't you think?

Do not the Priests who say these masses deserve some money towards their lives? Didn't St. Paul tell us to support the Church?

(10 quid a time isn't going to give us any rich priests, remember ;) )
 
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Michelina

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10 quid? That's not that much money. Hardly enough to pay for anything these days, don't you think?

Do not the Priests who say these masses deserve some money towards their lives? Didn't St. Paul tell us to support the Church?

(10 quid a time isn't going to give us any rich priests, remember ;) )
That's right, Brad. Stipends for Holy Mass and other liturgical acts are necessary for priests in most parts of the world. In former times, they were the priest's only source of money. Even today, in some parts of the world, they are crucial. The Canons above reflect the reality that priests don't ever get rich by being priests, contrary to the mythology spread by anti-Catholic bigots.
 
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