3rd Temple coming soon..

[ShedSinforChrist]

When you acknowledge that the 144,000, and the multitude are clearly different, then I will accept what you are saying.

There is only one understanding, one is right, one is wrong.

You are the one pulling from your bag of tricks, running around the NT to back your story..

I need two verses, two very cleancut, easy to read and very comprehensible verses..

You cant even answer yes or no, why?

For the love of God I dont know...


If Id known you were another preterist, I sincerely would have ignored you.

I think the 144k are virgins who are free from sin.

Rev-14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev-14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[SG9]

You have to include all the stubble in the field gets burnt after the harvest.

Yes, no doubt, I didn't want to jump ahead of our present day before the fire burns the last of the bundles. The workers must first pick and separate, thresh, and all that stuff, gather and bundle, and then being that there are only a few workers, they have a lot of bundles to torch as they traverse the field (earth) and while they are working, Satan is running ahead of them in attempt to corrupt the poor housewife of the home before they hear the truth. The counterfeits must always come ahead of the truth, so to deceive, or else the Truth prevails, it's pure logic.

Look at the dead sea scrolls, and consider how the world regards these old books and the apocrypha. Now, consider how long ago those were written, used and believed.

Now, consider what we have today and what we have become with what we have; I'll give you the principal thought, we have many Bible translations that are written in many languages, and likely many more than the total of the ancient scripts.

Time continues and so does prophecy but as man sins, stumbles and falls, we lose our pace with God and He has to let us run amok like little kid's running ahead of their parents as they approach the gates of Disneyland. The kid's ran off and got lost in the crowd without realizing their proximity and relationship to their parents. The kid's run through the amusements without a care in the world, while the parents are freaking out!

The entire park staff are on the lookout, and searchers and watchers keep alert for lost children. Some are found and are returned while some have been lost in joy-ride accidents and other horribly molested and or kidnapped and held for ransom, and some found dead, etc. All of what you see today has a spiritual parallel and repercussions.

Continuing with the DSS, and in comparison to our current Bibles and books, galore, let's think of it just like as if our generation had faced a revolution and had to surrender all of our books, faith, rights and politics, freedom, etc., to an AC ruler, and were taken into captivity but some person thought to hide what they could in a time-capsule or stash hole to preserve a collection of our many translations, KJV, NKJV, NIV, NLT, etc, and etc., and many languages, and many interpretations of these books, men's books, and perhaps, the Koran and who knows what might be included with these.

The ruler then gives us the freedom to make up anything that we want, to believe but only after a long time held in captivity and under it's law and authority, and under order of faith by pledge. The people grow comfortable over time as tensions ease with new laws while still in captivity.

Then in the future days other people find our stash and try to decipher our baskets of confusion. They use their discernment from which was learned from the AC doctrines that they grew up with and learned to love as precious gospels. They examine the badly weathered books (our present day doctrines) and use their given discernment to decide what to believe and not, and the dictator decides what they are allowed as for their faith, and perhaps, that future generation might call themselves, Jetson's?

Do you see the parallel? How do we regard all of our books today? We seem to believe and love them all, and there seems to be no difference between all of the various translations; with the exception of a few who see the differences in translations. Now as time passes so are humans desensitized and doctrines dissolved and watered down. What then might the worth of any book be to a race of people who can't understand it because it's like old newspapers from another planet?

What are we using today? Do the Dead Sea Scrolls tell us more than we realize?

I'll rest here, my friends and proof read this later . Thanks

 

[SG9]

I think the 144k are virgins who are free from sin.

Rev-14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev-14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Yes, and they are forgiven as well so to be sin free. No man is righteous before God calls him righteous. They are no different before being raised up as the 144k group. They are men of valor. Are soldiers allowed to serve before being selected, trained and instructed? They didn't even know who they were or are before being raised up and identified, and they do learn and discover themselves through their own life here on earth experiences. They are humans, right? Men, redeemded from earth. Thanks

*All souls become Virgins after cleansing and forgiveness. To think that there are no virgins after being sealed by God is to say that God is not a Virgin but rather a harlot.

 

[ShedSinforChrist]

Yes, and they are forgiven as well so to be sin free. No man is righteous before God calls him righteous. They are no different before being raised up as the 144k group. They are men of valor. Are soldiers allowed to serve before being selected, trained and instructed? They didn't even know who they were or are before being raised up and identified, and they do learn and discover themselves through their own life here on earth experiences. They are humans, right? Men, redeemded from earth. Thanks

*All souls become Virgins after cleansing and forgiveness. To think that there are no virgins after being sealed by God is to say that God is not a Virgin but rather a harlot.

I suppose that's a different way of looking at, but John didn't use "virgin" in the context of "forgiveness" as he said they are "undefiled by women".


Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Correct me if Im wrong, but it appears that John explicitly assigns their virginity to the fact that they had not been defiled by women, so as to imply they were sexually pure, thus having favor with the Lord.

We know they are sealed on earth from an earlier passage in Revelation.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


I don't think they were actually free of sin, as it doesn't say that, so you are right, they would have to also be sinners, since we are all sinners.

This verse also agrees with what you said, because it doesn't say they were without sin, it says they are without fault. thx for correcting me.

Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Sin in Greek is "Hamartia" which means "offense" whereas "Amomos" in greek means "without blame".

Cheers

 

[SG9]

I suppose that's a different way of looking at, but John didn't use "virgin" in the context of "forgiveness" as he said they are "undefiled by women".


Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Correct me if Im wrong, but it appears that John explicitly assigns their virginity to the fact that they had not been defiled by women, so as to imply they were sexually pure, thus having favor with the Lord.

We know they are sealed on earth from an earlier passage in Revelation.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


I don't think they were actually free of sin, as it doesn't say that, so you are right, they would have to also be sinners, since we are all sinners.

This verse also agrees with what you said, because it doesn't say they were without sin, it says they are without fault. thx for correcting me.

Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Sin in Greek is "Hamartia" which means "offense" whereas "Amomos" in greek means "without blame".

Cheers

Hi, do a reality-check, ask yourself, who are the women, and then how does it affect this? This is old stuff that's been discussed in forums that I've read here. there's another thread discussion this very topic of 144k.

It's like comparing apples with apples, you say tomatoe, and I say tomato. It's really perspective. The women must be fully understood before addressing the title of the 144k. You are addressing their character while I might be talking about an attribute of identity. Have you read any of the other discussions that are going into length on your point? Thanks

 

[ShedSinforChrist]

Hi, do a reality-check, ask yourself, who are the women, and then how does it affect this? This is old stuff that's been discussed in forums that I've read here. there's another thread discussion this very topic of 144k.

It's like comparing apples with apples, you say tomatoe, and I say tomato. It's really perspective. The women must be fully understood before addressing the title of the 144k. You are addressing their character while I might be talking about an attribute of identity. Have you read any of the other discussions that are going into length on your point? Thanks

Given that the women being referred to are given in subtext, we have no inference to who they are. They dont exist, as is explained by the lack of defilement.

In this verse, John explicitly refers to the "lack of defilement by women" as the prime contributor to their virginity.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Angels cant be redeemed from among men, so we know they come from earth, as is explained in Rev 7:3

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ive never heard this refuted in academia before, new one for me!

Cheers

 

[SG9]

Given that the women being referred to are given in subtext, we have no inference to who they are. They dont exist, as is explained by the lack of defilement.

In this verse, John explicitly refers to the "lack of defilement by women" as the prime contributor to their virginity.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Angels cant be redeemed from among men, so we know they come from earth, as is explained in Rev 7:3

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ive never heard this refuted in academia before, new one for me!

Cheers

I have no dispute with any of this. For me to follow you I need to know more about your perspective of the interpretation of the women, and whether each detail is literal, symbolic, natural, or supernatural; whether in regards to character, law, title, and so on. I wonder, where are we going with this? Thanks

 

[ShedSinforChrist]

I have no dispute with any of this. For me to follow you I need to know more about your perspective of the interpretation of the women, and whether each detail is literal, symbolic, natural, or supernatural; whether in regards to character, law, title, and so on. I wonder, where are we going with this? Thanks

The women are given as subject matter in this verse, devoid of assignment, as the word "women" is being used to describe what they (144k) are not defiled by.

The greek equivalent for "women" in this verse is "Gune", which literally means "a woman", or specifically, "wife" in the contextual use of the Greek vernacular.

It would appear weve taken "beating a dead horse" to new levels of implication, lol. Im quite sure this has never been disputed, perhaps on this forum, but not at the collegiate level where matters are scrutinized professionally.

Cheers

 

[SG9]

The women are given as subject matter in this verse, devoid of assignment, as the word "women" is being used to describe what they (144k) are not defiled by.

The greek equivalent for "women" in this verse is "Gune", which literally means "a woman", or specifically, "wife" in the contextual use of the Greek vernacular.

It would appear weve taken "beating a dead horse" to new levels of implication, lol. Im quite sure this has never been disputed, perhaps on this forum, but not at the collegiate level where matters are scrutinized professionally.

Cheers

Well then, why are you not there? Thanks

 

[ShedSinforChrist]

Well then, why are you not there? Thanks

Blessings from the Lord mate

Cheers

 

[SG9]

Blessings from the Lord mate

Cheers

Thank you and blessings to you too. I do apologize for missing your point to start, my thought process was on something entirely different and you caught me off guard, really. As I said, it's old stuff, it's been discussed on "other" forums on the internet, as well. I've read a great number of them and this is old stuff.

I'll explain in further detail, you are debating the idea that the 144k men must be natural virgins who have never touched a real earthy woman in any sexual manner. Yet Christ is said to be the only one Virgin ever? You are confusing many things, just as many are and I have examined this POV but it doesn't pan-out, and I don't require a collegiate level degree, a dictionary or idea to figure this one out. Christ, who walked in flesh became a First Born Virgin, meaning there will be more? Christ was Baptized and became Pure as a Virgin? Christ was said to not have known a woman but every other man who even looks upon a woman in lust has committed adultery. Christ was the "Atonement", getting the picture?

I don't need the Bible to say that my reasoning is wrong if I don't word it exactly as it's written in the... in the ,, BTW, which version?

It's simple deduction, we either believe that God did walk in the flesh as Son of man or not?
God, the Father sees the man who was once sin as a pure Virgin, just as He sees His First Born, and no different, as there are neither Jew nor Greek, neither free nor bond, neither male nor "female"? Now, how does this work into your theology and especially, reasoning? Have you reasoned with it or wrestled with it?
Christ, the First Born for His generation of man, and the promise of Abraham, the complete lineage of the "Seed". All of the seed is promised, there is no break in the chain as the New World Order has done, and you can't prevent God from joining the links together, no man is going to put asunder what God has done for much longer.

Then do we believe that God can forgive sins?

Then, consider what "woman" or "women" means in Bible context, and not man's context?

Then If Christ thought not it robbery to be God in flesh, then you are off course and need a little correction. God is alive, and he can forgive sins.

God can take a man, a sinner, wash him so white that he appears as a virgin? and because the man has become as one, a symbol for "Virgin"?

You say it requires a collegiate level, what?

It's rather a matter of faith and belief., my friend. If you get the course wrong you essentially are saying a number of blasphemous things about the Lord and I'm sure that this will be pointed out to you as you traverse the earth debating this issue that you believe has never been discussed before; Something rings a bell, where have I heard that before?

Your avatar of Jesus is quite... impressive? (SG9, thinking to myself, "it fooled me for a moment") Thanks

 

[ShedSinforChrist]

Thank you and blessings to you too. I do apologize for missing your point to start, my thought process was on something entirely different and you caught me off guard, really. As I said, it's old stuff, it's been discussed on "other" forums on the internet, as well. I've read a great number of them and this is old stuff.

I'll explain in further detail, you are debating the idea that the 144k men must be natural virgins who have never touched a real earthy woman in any sexual manner. Im not debating this, John explicitly states this in Revelation.


Yet Christ is said to be the only one Virgin ever? Can you provide scriptural support for this statement, Im pretty sure many Catholic Priests vow an oath of, and die in celibacy. Are you saying men cant be virgins?

You are confusing many things, just as many are and I have examined this POV but it doesn't pan-out, and I don't require a collegiate level degree, a dictionary or idea to figure this one out. Christ, who walked in flesh became a First Born Virgin, meaning there will be more? Christ was Baptized and became Pure as a Virgin? Im not sure what you are talking about, Christ was indeed a virgin, I dont know why you are introducing this into the conversation.

I don't need the Bible to say that my reasoning is wrong if I don't word it exactly as it's written in the... in the ,, BTW, which version? We study from Greek and Hebrew, we are required to translate the entirety of the Bible as part of our understanding.

It's simple deduction, we either believe that God did walk in the flesh as Son of man or not? Yes, I believe God incarnated as Jesus Christ.


God, the Father sees the man who was once sin as a pure Virgin, just as He sees His First Born, and no different, as there are neither Jew nor Greek, neither free nor bond, neither male nor "female"? Now, how does this work into your theology and especially, reasoning? Have you reasoned with it or wrestled with it? No, I have not, it doesnt make any sense to introduce something that isnt in scripture.

Then do we believe that God can forgive sins? Jesus Christ died for our sins, we must acknowledge acceptance of Christs sacrifice before God for redemption.

Then, consider what "woman" or "women" means in Bible context, and not man's context? I gave you the literal Greek interpretation of how the word was written for you to understand, Its as if you want it to mean something other than what John intended it for.

Then If Christ thought not it robbery to be God in flesh, then you are off course and need a little correction. God is alive, and he can forgive sins.
I never said God wasnt alive, nor did I say he cant forgive sins.

God can take a man, a sinner, wash him so white that he appears as a virgin? and because the man has become as one, a symbol for "Virgin"?
Do you have scriptural support for this statement?

You say it requires a collegiate level, what?
No, Im saying what you are proposing doesn't exist at the collegiate level, for example, If I run this proposal by my Professors, Ill be laughed at. It doesn't make sense to me, and I certainly wouldn't publish this position for fear of ridicule among my peers.

It's rather a matter of faith and belief., my friend. If you get the course wrong you essentially are saying a number of blasphemous things about the Lord and I'm sure that this will be pointed out to you as you traverse the earth debating this issue that you believe has never been discussed before; Something rings a bell, where have I heard that before? If you can show me others who share your views, or something published that supports your understanding, id love to review it.

Your avatar of Jesus is quite... impressive? (SG9, thinking to myself, "it fooled me for a moment") Thanks

Impressive? Jesus is pretty impressive.. I must say..

Cheers

 

[SG9]

Impressive? Jesus is pretty impressive.. I must say..

Cheers

I see your point here, this is where there is a before and after Virgin. This is where the, or one confusion is made; while men are in captivity their spirit is not of God, it's that of the man's captor. God rescues the fallen man, and God washes him off, "Forgives" his sins/transgressions and calls him a virgin as if the man had never sinned. God puts His Spirit in the man, after He has been redeemed from the Abyss. We cannot serve two masters, we cannot have an evil and a pure spirit after God resurrects man. God sees Himself, and He is not a harlot, nor defiled. He cannot see the flesh once it's Glorified.

Then, yes, man may live an entire life, even eternity once the chain of the lineage is mended. We have not been redeemed yet, and until then we are spotted. Then after the redemption and become those virgins then, man may live an entire life in eternity without being counted as sin or accused of sin because all that man will do will be pure in the sight of God, always a virgin and all the way down through the Seed that continues and never seizing without a break in the chain.

Your Priest, any of them who claim that man can do it before being redeemed is a blasphemer, no doubt. no need for further discussion on your other arguments, it doesn't pan-out as I told you already. It won't work! Thanks

 

[ShedSinforChrist]

I see your point here, this is where there is a before and after Virgin. This is where the, or one confusion is made; while men are in caprivity their spirit is not of God, it's that of the man's captor. God rescues the fallen man, and God washes him off, "Forgives" his sins/transgressions and calls him a virgin as if the man had never sinned.

Then, yes, man may live an entire life, even eternity once the chain of the lineage is mended. We have not been redeemed yet, and until then we are spotted. Then after the redemption and become those virgins then, man may live an entire life in eternity without being counted as sin or accused of sin because all that man will do will be pure in the sight of God, always a virgin and all the way down through the Seed that continues and never seizing without a break in the chain.

Your Priest, any of them who claim that man can do it before being redeemed is a blasphemer, no doubt. no need for further discussion on your other arguments, it doesn't pan-out as I told you already. It won't work! Thanks

You are an odd fellow, lol.. But love abounds!

Blessings..

 

[SG9]

You are an odd fellow, lol.. But love abounds!

Blessings..

I love you brother, we who are supposed to be of God is written that we will be peculiar, no doubt and I love the confirmations that I get from the opposing side. Bless you

1 Peter 2:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[ShedSinforChrist]

I love you brother, we who are supposed to be of God is written that we will be peculiar, no doubt and I love the confirmations that I get from the opposing side. Bless you

1 Peter 2:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Peculiar would be one of the nicer things Ive been called for my faith,

 

[SG9]

Peculiar would be one of the nicer things Ive been called for my faith,

I concur, albeit I haven't any clue as to which faith you are, what faith is non-demonicational, err, denominational?

Your reasoning then says that all religions are politically correct and this then exposes an attribute of a universal church, or mindset, such as gentile. IMO. Thanks

 

[ebedmelech]

The understanding of the 144,000 who are virgins is explained spiritually! I will make the point this way:

They are virgins because they have remained faithful to God and Christ. Where can we find this? In 2 Corinthians 11:2 where Paul says:
2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
Notice that Paul considers coming to Christ to be a betrothal! He see the church as a "pure virgin". This is what gives insight into the 144,000 also...because they are called virgins. They are virgins in that they have been cleansed by Christ's blood.

He does it again in Ephesians 5:25-27 where he says of the church:
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

This is exactly why the 144,000 are the church...and they are typified as virgins in that they have remained faithful to Christ. They are without spot of wrinkle through the blood of Christ.

This can never be seen correctly though until the concept that the church is spiritual Israel is seen.

The apostle Paul LABORS in the scriptures to make this point...yet so many will not receive it.

*He says this in Romans 2:28-29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

This is a beginning point for the apostle that those in Christ are Jews spiritually. This is what the apostle is saying here!

This has to be seen to understand who the 144,000 are! Paul labors all through his epistles making this point...yet it is not received...and the really amazing thing, is that he uses the OT prophets to do it!!!

 

[riverrat]

The understanding of the 144,000 who are virgins is explained spiritually! I will make the point this way:

They are virgins because they have remained faithful to God and Christ. Where can we find this? In 2 Corinthians 11:2 where Paul says:
2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
Notice that Paul considers coming to Christ to be a betrothal! He see the church as a "pure virgin". This is what gives insight into the 144,000 also...because they are called virgins. They are virgins in that they have been cleansed by Christ's blood.

He does it again in Ephesians 5:25-27 where he says of the church:
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

This is exactly why the 144,000 are the church...and they are typified as virgins in that they have remained faithful to Christ. They are without spot of wrinkle through the blood of Christ.

This can never be seen correctly though until the concept that the church is spiritual Israel is seen.

The apostle Paul LABORS in the scriptures to make this point...yet so many will not receive it.

*He says this in Romans 2:28-29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

This is a beginning point for the apostle that those in Christ are Jews spiritually. This is what the apostle is saying here!

This has to be seen to understand who the 144,000 are! Paul labors all through his epistles making this point...yet it is not received...and the really amazing thing, is that he uses the OT prophets to do it!!!

Just another example of a preterist making plainly stated scripture to be spiritual in order to justify his doctrine.

 

[Interplanner]

Rat, we are supposed to take the Scripture plainly to justify a doctrine! Gotcha. Rom 2 is the definitions that Paul works over in Rom 9-11 to make it harmonious. EbedM took them plainly; you do not. Otherwise Rom 9-11 will fall to pieces. There's no jumping outside Romans; no inserting X000 years. It's right there in the book, a foundation, leading to a wall, leading to a finished building.

Regardless of the definition of a true Jew, in the Rev, you can't really imaging that there are "neat" little disasters that affect exactly 1/3 of the earth, do you? 144K--isn't that more a matter of 12 12s than anything else--a huge perfect number? And even with all the "tidy" disasters that happen that expend what is out there, the 2 witnesses can inflict any plague or disease they want anyway, making the others not so neat and tidy after all.