3abn Continued (2)

tomatoe · Apr 15, 2007

truthmagnet said:
Tomatoe states:
My moral and christian ethics are this: Where Duane is concerned, if alleged events happened, then it was wrong. Very wrong. .......but to lay your feelings and your experiences at the feet of one man, that has never been condemned or charged in a court of law, shows your moral compass.
i have done no such thing. my moral compass is to protect, defend and support victims. my feelings and experiences have nothing to do with TS. they are expressed to help you, who are so blind, to see the deep scars that are left by such cowardly, perverted acts and to help you see how incredibly hard it is to open that wound back up for all the world to see in the hopes of getting some justice and healing.
my moral compass is to show my disdain for homosexuality and pedifiles. whether someone is of age or not, it is an abomination unto God and our world is losing the race on preventing and annihilating that abomination.
the evidence in this case is overwhelming and has been revealed over a period of decades. there is no telling how many times this has happened and gone unreported, but be that as it may, there is no reason to attack someone who has been a victim simply because they have spoken out in this venue. maybe he needs our support. did you ever think of that? have you ever thought of the victims feelings?
just because he spoke out and continues to be attacked for it he has to continue to speak up and defend himself. he is not wrong for doing that. you and those of like mind are wrong to continue to invalidate him simply because this has not gone to court yet. maybe there is no case. maybe this is the "victim's court" where they can be heard.
fact of the matter is, he doesn't speak up that often so you need to get off his case and quit mentioning his name all over the place.
God gave us a brain to discern things with. If two churches found TS guilty enough to remove him as pastor, that is a "court" we should listen to. they obviously believed the accusations more than they believed TS. we should not assume that both of those churches didn't know what they were doing.

this silly exaggeration of: "this whole thing has taken on a mob mentality with accusations, horror stories and judgements being thrown around ...blah blah blah" - is over exaggerating a bit wouldn't you say? the few people who post on this thread can hardly be called a mob. we who defend the victims have no more of a "mob mentality" than you and those few who agree with you. we are just angry that this happened to these young men and nothing has been done about it. i wouldn't call that "mob mentality". i'd call that "morality".

So, where is your moral compass?
maybe we should take a poll.
who's for homosexuality and sexual abuse say "aye".
those opposed say "ney"

Don't throw Duane's name around? Surely you are joking. He chose to put himself and his allegations all over the internet. 3 to 4 different sites that I know of. Sorry you can't blame me for that one.
You are incorrect about TS being dismissed from 2 churches. See what the internet does. You read so many false statements and then mix them up with the truth. There was no dismissal or anything of the sort in Va. Tommy had a heart attack while pastoring in VA and was told he needed to at least semi retire from pastoring. That is why he and his family left there. There were no allegations, rumors, bad blood of any kind until Dryden arrived there and started trying to find something. Even now with dryden's allegations of abuse there, he has never even presented the church with any names whatsoever. Most of dryden's own board doesn't believe him.
My advice would be to not make such statements unless you can prove they are factual.

tomatoe · Apr 15, 2007

truthmagnet said:
ALL of what I have said is hearsay and gossip ??? prove that !! if you can Give me even ONE example i will gladly apologise. I answered your post question respectfully. I'd appreciate the same consideration. We will see how long I have to wait to get an example of your unwarranted accusation.

Rosie doesn't have to prove anything. She isn't the one making the allegations, you are. The burden of proof falls on the one making the allegations, not the one addressing them.

Rosie55 · Apr 15, 2007

truthmagnet said:
ALL of what I have said is hearsay and gossip ??? prove that !! if you can Give me even ONE example i will gladly apologise. I answered your post question respectfully. I'd appreciate the same consideration. We will see how long I have to wait to get an example of your unwarranted accusation.

Tm--get real please. I was not being disrespectful. I was speaking about what you were saying about Duane and Tommy and the whole topic of conversation.

truthmagnet · Apr 15, 2007

Tomatoe, you say: "My advice would be to not make such statements unless you can prove they are factual."
That would be my advice to you as well. Are you from VA? Were you there? You say you know the facts. If so let's see the documentation. If you are the authority on truth here, don't just say it, prove it to me. And please don't speak for other people.

Rosie55- you said "Again truthmagnet--all of what you have said is hearsay and gossip"
then you said, "Tm--get real please. I was not being disrespectful. I was speaking about what you were saying about Duane and Tommy and the whole topic of conversation."
well, you must have been brought up quite differently than me, because I think when you say ALL someone says is hearsay and gossip it is very disrespectful and incorrect. All I did was take up for a victim. I made no accusations. If so, show me. I'm waiting. Show me where ALL I say is gossip

noahswife · Apr 15, 2007

Rosie55 said:
Peaceful--this is true--you don't know.

Again truthmagnet--all of what you have said is hearsay and gossip because no one has been charged in a court of law. Again--let Duane and company form a lawsuit (I understand this is being done) and then come on here and talk about it. But until it is PROVEN in a court of law, Tommy is innocent of any child abuse.

I'm glad law enforcement have been trained to tell when people are lying when it comes to this type of abuse. I imagine it clears up a lot of problems.

Rosie55

The absolute nonsense you write sometimes amazes me. If I were you I would get a better speechwriter.

1. I am going to ignore your comment to PeacefulSDA as her posts speak for themselves and her willingness to speak up for anyone she chooses.

2. You say above to TM, "all of what you have said is hearsay and gossip because no one has been charged in a court of law."

This sentence makes absolutely no sense at all and demonstrates you don't have a clue what you are talking about. What is or is not hearsay or what is gossip has absolutely nothing to do with whether anyone is or is not charged in a court of law.

3. You wrote: Again--let Duane and company form a lawsuit (I understand this is being done) and then come on here and talk about it.

Do you know something we do not know about a lawsuit? But lets assume one was filed. Would you think it meant something if they did not come here to discuss the evidence? I hope not because no lawyer would advise them to do so.

4. You also wrote, But until it is PROVEN in a court of law, Tommy is innocent of any child abuse.

This statement is almost as ridiculous as item #2 above. You are either confused or lack understanding. Until found guilty in a court of law, Tommy would not be convicted of a crime and subject to the consequences thereof. However, that is not even close to the same thing as finding he is innocent of any child abuse unless that is determined in a court of law. I am curious Rosie55. Do you think OJ Simpson was innocent because he was not found guilty at trial?

From the information I have seen thus far I think that under current Illinois law the statute of limitations has run so that it is unlikely TS will be charged with a crime. However, I dont presume to know all the facts and I presume neither do you. But whether he is criminally charged or not is NOT dispositive of the issue of whether he was guilty or not of committing either child abuse or sexually exploiting someone not a child.

5. And lastly you said, I'm glad law enforcement have been trained to tell when people are lying when it comes to this type of abuse. I imagine it clears up a lot of problems.

I guess I need to remind you that it is the police officers job to find information, interview witnesses and otherwise investigate a matter. It is not up to them to determine if something is factual or determine the veracity of a witness although their opinion I am certain is considered.

Peach45 · Apr 16, 2007

noahswife said:
Rosie55

The absolute nonsense you write sometimes amazes me. If I were you I would get a better speechwriter.

1. I am going to ignore your comment to PeacefulSDA as her posts speak for themselves and her willingness to speak up for anyone she chooses.

2. You say above to TM, "all of what you have said is hearsay and gossip because no one has been charged in a court of law."

This sentence makes absolutely no sense at all and demonstrates you don't have a clue what you are talking about. What is or is not hearsay or what is gossip has absolutely nothing to do with whether anyone is or is not charged in a court of law.

3. You wrote: “Again--let Duane and company form a lawsuit (I understand this is being done) and then come on here and talk about it.”

Do you know something we do not know about a lawsuit? But let’s assume one was filed. Would you think it meant something if they did not come here to discuss the evidence? I hope not because no lawyer would advise them to do so.

4. You also wrote, “But until it is PROVEN in a court of law, Tommy is innocent of any child abuse”.

This statement is almost as ridiculous as item #2 above. You are either confused or lack understanding. Until found guilty in a court of law, Tommy would not be convicted of a crime and subject to the consequences thereof. However, that is not even close to the same thing as finding he is innocent of any child abuse unless that is determined in a court of law. I am curious Rosie55. Do you think OJ Simpson was innocent because he was not found guilty at trial?

From the information I have seen thus far I think that under current Illinois law the statute of limitations has run so that it is unlikely TS will be charged with a crime. However, I don’t presume to know all the facts and I presume neither do you. But whether he is criminally charged or not is NOT dispositive of the issue of whether he was guilty or not of committing either child abuse or sexually exploiting someone not a child.

5. And lastly you said, “I'm glad law enforcement have been trained to tell when people are lying when it comes to this type of abuse. I imagine it clears up a lot of problems.”

I guess I need to remind you that it is the police officer’s job to find information, interview witnesses and otherwise investigate a matter. It is not up to them to determine if something is factual or determine the veracity of a witness although their opinion I am certain is considered.

Noah's wife,

This entire fiasco is ridiculous.

What you have are rumors and accusations.

It has been said over and over again that what happened in the 80's was investigated by the civil authories already, as well as the Ezra school. T.S. was disciplined by his Church but NOT for child molestation.

That is over and done with.

What is up with all the recent allegations aside from the Clem's? ( who were actually right in the middle of the 80's investigation along with a long time supervisor at the Ezra school, Paula Clem, by "ALL" accounts a Godly and intelligent, and strong woman. - and their mother)

Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How?

I suggest, that you and Peaceful, and truth magnet know nothing about any "alleged" victims, because there are no statements from them, Pickle has nothing on them, and Even Dryden who keeps claiming they exist has not revealed any of it to even his own Church board.

Truth magnet wants proof it's not rumors and slander....

That is both blind and absurd.

One can not prove a negative, one cannot rebut evidence when none is there to rebut.

You have many mouths making accusations and yet nothing of substance to deal with.

Anonymous Mom's are crying, and yet no son's testify... No statements made or written and given to anyone, anywhere, whether, civil, Church or to so called "3ABN investigators" or their supporters and fellow accusers.

I think you are an intelligent woman, why would you take part in this, how could you form opinions and make judgments based on this?

God's people are NOT to rush to judgment, they are to prove all things, and not accept witness who are not credible.

People need to wake up here.

What has been done here is Sin, and the sin is on the heads of the accusers.

PeacefulSDA · Apr 16, 2007

Peach45,

You have made a lot of claims in your rather mean-spirited post. I have carefully read through it several times. I would like to respond but I am uncertain about your reasoning in a few areas.

You said:

God's people are NOT to rush to judgment, they are to prove all things, and not accept witness who are not credible.

For clarification, please list which witnesses you deem are not credible. Your reasons for why you have judged them not credible would be helpful as well.

bonedealer · Apr 16, 2007

your question magnet, is a two edged sword and will cut you on the way back . . . the work being done by robert and gailon certainly isn't registering on any moral compass . . . their work is anything but worthy of the Saviour . . . sure there is a lot of bellicose chest beating that they are about "saving" 3abn . . . that they are dedicated to spreading the gospel . . . but their actions are all to the contrary . . . if you are going to swing that sword in here, you better have a healthy supply of band-aids in your medicine cabinet . . .

just 2 cents from the bonedealer

truthmagnet said:
Let's forget about a legal case for a minute. Where is your moral compass?

bonedealer · Apr 16, 2007

and here in lies one of the dilemmas, peace, that at this point there is no clarity as to who is a true witness . . . and who has merely been draped in the term along the way . . . on numerous sites there are many spouting (never adding anything of substance to discussion) . . . all of them claiming they base their opinion on "witnesses" . . . there seem to be so many clamoring that they "have the truth" and that they "know" the accusations against danny, tommy, mollie, shelley, dr. thompson, and anyone else associated with 3abn are true . . . robert for instance is witness to nothing . . . yet purports himself to be the only place truth resides . . . gailon, though obviously lacking credibility and veracity, continues to be held up as a paragon of virtue and truth . . . their site is filled with some much anonymity that it reads like a work of fiction . . . even woodward and bernstein had a few named sources . . . you seem so willing to accept the words of those with an axe to grind against 3abn and totally unwilling to even entertain the possibility that those speaking in 3abn's favor might very well have the truth you seek . . . you have passed from truth seeking to position defending while still claiming to be a seeker of what is true in this affair (no pun intended) . . .

it has been proven numerous times that robert manipulates the words of others to prove he is right, to create false perceptions (lies), and plant seeds of doubt . . . it is proven that gailon has a track record that leaves his motives and actions lack veracity . . . the "case" against tommy is at the very best purely circumstantial at this point - with nothing on the horizon to change that situation . . . but more than likely as the facts are revealed the horizon will reveal that those attacking are guilty of the worst type of character assassination . . .

just 2 cents from the bonedealer

PeacefulSDA said:
Peach45,

You have made a lot of claims in your rather mean-spirited post. I have carefully read through it several times. I would like to respond but I am uncertain about your reasoning in a few areas.

You said:

For clarification, please list which witnesses you deem are not credible. Your reasons for why you have judged them not credible would be helpful as well.

Peach45 · Apr 16, 2007

PeacefulSDA said:
Peach45,

You have made a lot of claims in your rather mean-spirited post. I have carefully read through it several times. I would like to respond but I am uncertain about your reasoning in a few areas.

You said:

For clarification, please list which witnesses you deem are not credible. Your reasons for why you have judged them not credible would be helpful as well.

Why don't you understand here? You are the one believing T.S. is guilty and is a pedophile. You are and have been defending and supplying excuses for and possible scenarios and what its on behalf of "alleged victims" you either don't know, or who may even be fictitious.

Based on who, what, where, when, why and how, Peacefully?

It is up to you to provide the "credible witnesses" first..

How many times have you written "I just want the truth" and "I would love to see him proved innocent" and said you are willing to look at the evidence and consider that?

Why didn't you or others need to see the evidence and proof to believe him guilty?

I am sorry you see me as mean spirited. I guess we just have differences as to how that is defined.

Jimlarmore · Apr 16, 2007

truthmagnet said:
Mr Larmore said:
"I know a little about it,I used to investigate these cases as a law enforcement officer. ["a little bit" is even an exaggeration. you say this as if it gives you some credibility and makes you an authority. your posts say just the opposite. for someone in 'law enforcement' you are not very honest in your editing of the context of "copied" quotes. ]
Laying all of that aside you have said if we don't know what we are talking about we need to move on to something else.
I would suggest sir you take your own advise. DClem was 19 when this happened according to his own admission. This is not child abuse [i never mentioned DClem nor did i mention child abuse]
and DClem wasn't majorly concerned with making a federal case out of what happened until Mr. Pickle got in touch with him. [Prove it. That is an insult to the character and honesty and decency of DClem and he disputes your statement and so do I] If child abuse occurred then that needs to be addressed but
I did not insult DClem [How can you say that? Yes you did insult him]
and I have not addressed you in any way except when you first started to post on this thread against 3ABN and Danny Shelton. [What does that mean?? That makes no sense; " ...not addressed you in any way.....except when you first started to post, etc." Every post I have ever made to you has had to do with your insults, misinformation and hurtful accusations towards the victims in this sexual abuse case.]
Were you sexually abused by Tommy Shelton as a child? [That is a sick, twisted and disgusting thing to say to me. It is repulsive and flaming and you know it!]

I refuse to respond in like fashion at this lady has at all. I will let the words I have spoken in the past and the fairness I try to bring to this forum speak for themselves. I will pray for you truthmagnet.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

truthmagnet · Apr 16, 2007

Originally Posted by truthmagnet
Let's forget about a legal case for a minute. Where is your moral compass?

Quote Bonedealer:
your question magnet, is a two edged sword and will cut you on the way back . . . the work being done by robert and gailon certainly isn't registering on any moral compass . . . their work is anything but worthy of the Saviour . . . sure there is a lot of bellicose chest beating that they are about "saving" 3abn . . . that they are dedicated to spreading the gospel . . . but their actions are all to the contrary . . . if you are going to swing that sword in here, you better have a healthy supply of band-aids in your medicine cabinet . . .
just 2 cents from the bonedealer
Now for you my dear, Your answer has nothing to do with my question. You need to go back and read how that question came about before you think to answer it out of context. Your answer has nothing to do with the context of my question. Please don't confuse things by trying to make my question into something it is not. If, per chance, you did follow the thread, then you either totally didn't understand the conversation or you deliberately convoluted your reply to it.
My question referred to people attacking victims of abuse by trying to say they shouldn't be talking about it if it's not a legal case. first of all that viewpoint is inhumane and invalid, however my question, if you will read it again above, was to say, forget about legalities for a minute. where do you, as a person of conscience, stand on homosexuality, sexual immorality, child abuse, sexual predators, sexual harrassment, and on and on.
you incorrectly used my post here as a jumping off point to make your own attacks for the purpose of your own agenda. it had nothing to do with what I was talking about..

truthmagnet · Apr 16, 2007

Originally Posted by truthmagnet

Mr Larmore said:
(his post is in red - my response is in blue)
"I know a little about it,I used to investigate these cases as a law enforcement officer. ["a little bit" is even an exaggeration. you say this as if it gives you some credibility and makes you an authority. your posts say just the opposite. for someone in 'law enforcement' you are not very honest in your editing of the context of "copied" quotes. ]
Laying all of that aside you have said if we don't know what we are talking about we need to move on to something else.
I would suggest sir you take your own advise.[unless you have been a victim, or you have done a great deal of researsh on the damage this causes to victims, you JL, do not know what you are talking about and are hurting people. I on the other hand have been there, done that on all accounts. i know from whence i speak.] DClem was 19 when this happened according to his own admission. This is not child abuse [i never mentioned DClem nor did i mention child abuse]
and DClem wasn't majorly concerned with making a federal case out of what happened until Mr. Pickle got in touch with him. [Prove it. That is an insult to the character and honesty and decency of DClem and he disputes your statement and so do I]
If child abuse occurred then that needs to be addressed but I did not insult DClem [How can you say that? Yes you did insult him]
and I have not addressed you in any way except when you first started to post on this thread against 3ABN and Danny Shelton. [What does that mean?? That makes no sense; " ...not addressed you in any way.....except when you first started to post, etc." Every post I have ever made to you has had to do with your insults, misinformation and hurtful accusations towards the victims in this sexual abuse case.]
Were you sexually abused by Tommy Shelton as a child? [That is a sick, twisted and disgusting thing to say to me. It is repulsive and flaming and you know it!]

Jimlarmore said:
I refuse to respond in like fashion at this lady has at all. I will let the words I have spoken in the past and the fairness I try to bring to this forum speak for themselves. I will pray for you truthmagnet.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

thanks for reposting this for me however if there is no apology for your repulsive flaming towards me, your "prayers" are nothing more than pious words.
piety goes unrewarded

tomatoe · Apr 16, 2007

noahswife said:
Rosie55

Do you know something we do not know about a lawsuit? But let’s assume one was filed. Would you think it meant something if they did not come here to discuss the evidence? I hope not because no lawyer would advise them to do so.

Wow, this statement jumped out at me in a big way. 3abn defenders have posted that same statement over and over when your side has demanded that they bring prove against Linda, proof that their books are in order, proof that this, that and the other are not true, to these chat sites. How many times have you been told that 3abn would provide whatever proof was needed at the right time and in the right place and it wouldn't be the internet.
For some reason you and the others have never been able to comprehend that until now, when you use the exact same argument for Duane!!! Why would I have thought any different? It has been obvious for a long time that you have one set of rules for your side and another for ours. It's not working.

From the information I have received thus far I believe under current Illinois law the statute of limitations has run so it is unlikely TS will be charged with a crime.

Also you say it is too late for crimnal charges. Do you really think there would have been crimnal charges filed at the time of the alleged incidents? He was not under age, it was not rape and there was no threats or force involved. If it happened, it was wrong, but I don't see a successful crimnal case at all, then or now.

Peach45 · Apr 16, 2007

[

truthmagnet said:
It is apparent to me that either you two don't read and comprehend very well or else you just go writing in defense of your stance without fully understanding who or what you are writing about. Both these I address here are very simple and clear, easy to understand post if you actually read the context. So, let's try to keep up OK?

Peach45 said in an earlier post that ALL I say is hearsay and gossip. I told her to show me that because all I have done is defend victims of sexual abuse and try to explain to certain boneheads what they are going through so that possibly certain boneheads will stop attacking them for speaking out. I have made no accusations or spread any gossip. The purpose of my posts has been to defend the victims not to discuss details of any of the cases involving 3abn employees. So I said for the second time she posted and didn't show any evidence of me spreading gossip and hearsay, to show me. prove it. if it is found to be so, i will gladly aplogise because that is not something I am in the habit of doing. After a second comment from her but still no evidence, she then tries to rangle out of her accusation towards me by rewording what i said, saying that: " i want proof of the rumors and slander". (that right there is libel) i've never asked her for that information. that is not what i said to her. I asked her to prove her accusation towards me. Since she cannot do that but doesn't seem to be able to apologise for wrongfully accusing me of that she chooses to re-word my quote.
Quote Peach45: "All you say is gossip and hearsay"
"Truth magnet wants proof it's not rumors and slander....That is both blind and absurd".

Since you cannot prove your accusation towards me, you completely changed my quote to now say that I want you to"prove that it's not rumors and slander". so let's go with the twisted turn of that statement. first of all what does "its" mean. is "it" what she thinks is in my head or what is in her head?
second of all that is, very clearly, not what I wanted proven and she knows that. I've stated it twice prior to this post. I reinterate - Prove your accusation to me. "All you say is gossip and hearsay" All i asked for is one example and you cannot give me even one so you now twist the statement to read another way. this only proves that you say whatever comes to your mind without thought or fore-knowledge of what you are talking about and therefore your posts are totally irrelevant to these debates due to lack of reason and clarity.

---------------------

What ?!?

This is so off base.

Truth magnet, while I did refer to your words in my post to PeacefulSDA, you appear to be somewhat confused here. I did not say "all you say is gossip and slander" as you are quoting, nor did we ever have this conversation you relate.

I have never posted to you till now... nor have you ever asked me anything, or posted to me till now that I am aware of...

bonedealer · Apr 16, 2007

well tm, seems you are rather angry here . . . your first comment about reading is a ridiculous used statement in these forums that is nothing more than an ineffective attempt for you to try and make the casual reader think such . . . truth is, and it is obvious this one didn't stick to the magnet, that you have no idea to what extent that either one of us have read - and the fact that you are simply wrong won't occur to you, though it is the truth . . . your condescension is indicative of the weak foundation of your position . . . if you were on firmer footing you wouldn't need the personal attacks and would be able to merely offer the evidence to refute either one of our positions . . .

now . . . one wonders, when you state you "The purpose of my posts has been to defend the victims" if you do your defending simply because someone says they are a "victim" . . . or if you bother to find out the truth of the matter . . . have you ever heard of a case where the accuser was lying . . . have you ever heard of a case where someone ended up serving jail time after having been falsely accused of a sexual crime . . . now, if you do bother to do the work to verify and substantiate the claims past the "victims" statement - good for you . . . if not, you aren't standing on very firm ground . . .

you are engaged in a running conversation with many rivulets constantly flowing too and fro . . . you can not separate the lies and slander that have occurred here due to the web site of robert and gailon . . . if you get ANY information from there as a basis to substantiate your position (or via robert's postings here) then you are swinging a double edged sword . . . and, since you took peach to task in regards to her words, let's look at yours a little . . . no one has, as you put it "attacked victims" . . . they have asked questions in an effort to seek some level of verification, to refute accusations, to seek clarification . . . according to your approach (as evidenced by the ideas your words convey), anyone can make any accusation and they should never be checked to see if these accusations are real or lies . . . that goes against the system of justice in this country, as well as God's system of justice . . .

you seem to have based your position on the faulty work of individuals whose works have belied their true intentions . . . there is far too much vitriol in your post here to think that your stand is merely to stand for "the victim" . . .

now, an observation . . . if you have once made a statement that tommy shelton is a child molester, or insinuated such merely from the "information" (and that is used in it's loosest terms here) found here, or on the robert/gailon site without sitting for a long while to speak with the "victims" or tommy shelton . . . then you are dabbling in baseless accusation and slander against an individual - why don't you stand up for that "victim" . . .

just 2 cents from the bonedealer

truthmagnet said:
It is apparent to me that either you two don't read and comprehend very well or else you just go writing in defense of your stance without fully understanding who or what you are writing about. Both these I address here are very simple and clear, easy to understand post if you actually read the context. So, let's try to keep up OK?
Peach45 said in an earlier post that ALL I say is hearsay and gossip. I told her to show me that because all I have done is defend victims of sexual abuse and try to explain to certain boneheads what they are going through so that possibly certain boneheads will stop attacking them for speaking out. I have made no accusations or spread any gossip. The purpose of my posts has been to defend the victims not to discuss details of any of the cases involving 3abn employees. So I said for the second time she posted and didn't show any evidence of me spreading gossip and hearsay, to show me. prove it. if it is found to be so, i will gladly aplogise because that is not something I am in the habit of doing. After a second comment from her but still no evidence, she then tries to rangle out of her accusation towards me by rewording what i said, saying that: " i want proof of the rumors and slander". (that right there is libel) i've never asked her for that information. that is not what i said to her. I asked her to prove her accusation towards me. Since she cannot do that but doesn't seem to be able to apologise for wrongfully accusing me of that she chooses to re-word my quote.
Quote Peach45: "All you say is gossip and hearsay"
"Truth magnet wants proof it's not rumors and slander....That is both blind and absurd".

Since you cannot prove your accusation towards me, you completely changed my quote to now say that I want you to"prove that it's not rumors and slander". so let's go with the twisted turn of that statement. first of all what does "its" mean. is "it" what she thinks is in my head or what is in her head?
second of all that is, very clearly, not what I wanted proven and she knows that. I've stated it twice prior to this post. I reinterate - Prove your accusation to me. "All you say is gossip and hearsay" All i asked for is one example and you cannot give me even one so you now twist the statement to read another way. this only proves that you say whatever comes to your mind without thought or fore-knowledge of what you are talking about and therefore your posts are totally irrelevant to these debates due to lack of reason and clarity.

Now for the bonedealer.

Originally Posted by truthmagnet
Let's forget about a legal case for a minute. Where is your moral compass?

Quote Bonedealer:
your question magnet, is a two edged sword and will cut you on the way back . . . the work being done by robert and gailon certainly isn't registering on any moral compass . . . their work is anything but worthy of the Saviour . . . sure there is a lot of bellicose chest beating that they are about "saving" 3abn . . . that they are dedicated to spreading the gospel . . . but their actions are all to the contrary . . . if you are going to swing that sword in here, you better have a healthy supply of band-aids in your medicine cabinet . . .
just 2 cents from the bonedealer
Now for you my dear, Your answer has nothing to do with my question. You need to go back and read how that question came about before you think to answer it out of context. Your answer has nothing to do with the context of my question. Please don't confuse things by trying to make my question into something it is not. If, per chance, you did follow the thread, then you either totally didn't understand the conversation or you deliberately convoluted your reply to it.
My question referred to people attacking victims of abuse by trying to say they shouldn't be talking about it if it's not a legal case. first of all that viewpoint is inhumane and invalid, however my question, if you will read it again above, was to say, forget about legalities for a minute. where do you, as a person of conscience, stand on homosexuality, sexual immorality, child abuse, sexual predators, sexual harrassment, and on and on.
you incorrectly used my post here as a jumping off point to make your own attacks for the purpose of your own agenda. it had nothing to do with what I was talking about..

Princessdi · Apr 16, 2007

Yes, is it!!! They just had to put that 49th in there though! LOL!!! Praise God!!

dclem · Apr 16, 2007

Peach45 said:
Noah's wife,

This entire fiasco is ridiculous.

What you have are rumors and accusations.

It has been said over and over again that what happened in the 80's was investigated by the civil authories already, as well as the Ezra school. T.S. was disciplined by his Church but NOT for child molestation.

That is over and done with.

What is up with all the recent allegations aside from the Clem's? ( who were actually right in the middle of the 80's investigation along with a long time supervisor at the Ezra school, Paula Clem, by "ALL" accounts a Godly and intelligent, and strong woman. - and their mother)

Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How?

I suggest, that you and Peaceful, and truth magnet know nothing about any "alleged" victims, because there are no statements from them, Pickle has nothing on them, and Even Dryden who keeps claiming they exist has not revealed any of it to even his own Church board.

Truth magnet wants proof it's not rumors and slander....

That is both blind and absurd.

One can not prove a negative, one cannot rebut evidence when none is there to rebut.

You have many mouths making accusations and yet nothing of substance to deal with.

Anonymous Mom's are crying, and yet no son's testify... No statements made or written and given to anyone, anywhere, whether, civil, Church or to so called "3ABN investigators" or their supporters and fellow accusers.

I think you are an intelligent woman, why would you take part in this, how could you form opinions and make judgments based on this?

God's people are NOT to rush to judgment, they are to prove all things, and not accept witness who are not credible.

People need to wake up here.

What has been done here is Sin, and the sin is on the heads of the accusers.

What I have said is the absolute truth. It is NOT a rumor nor an accusation.

You know NOTHING about my family's involvement in the investigations back in the 80's, so you really should stop speaking about it.

Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, the things being said are true.

Jimlarmore · Apr 16, 2007

dclem said:
What I have said is the absolute truth. It is NOT a rumor nor an accusation.

You know NOTHING about my family's involvement in the investigations back in the 80's, so you really should stop speaking about it.

Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, the things being said are true.

A full disclosure of pertinent facts would have been the truth Duane but that is not what you gave us.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

PeacefulSDA · Apr 16, 2007

Peach45 said:
Why don't you understand here? You are the one believing T.S. is guilty and is a pedophile. You are and have been defending and supplying excuses for and possible scenarios and what its on behalf of "alleged victims" you either don't know, or who may even be fictitious.

Based on who, what, where, when, why and how, Peacefully?

It is up to you to provide the "credible witnesses" first..

How many times have you written "I just want the truth" and "I would love to see him proved innocent" and said you are willing to look at the evidence and consider that?

Why didn't you or others need to see the evidence and proof to believe him guilty?

I am sorry you see me as mean spirited. I guess we just have differences as to how that is defined.

Peach45,
When there is a preponderance of documentation that is consistant with what Tommy Shelton has said himself, it is not a rush to judgement to believe that there is credibility to the claims of sexual abuse that have been made by several witnesses.
1. Tommy's email confession gives us numerous point of corroboration:
Click here to read full text of the June 13, 2005 email
a. He speaks of his "big problem" he should have gotten help for or have gotten out of the ministry.
b. He says he really didn't know he needed help back then but does now.
c. Admits that" inappropriate things happened between" he and Duane.
d. Admits that Duane "resisted every attempt that I ever made".
e. Admits that his actions have hurt his wife, Duane and others.
f. Admits "that was part of my sickness - run when things get hot".
2. Roger Clem wrote a letter confronting Tommy about what he did to him and other teenage boys and the effect it has had on their lives:
Click here to read full text of Roger Clem's letter
3. Brad Dunning, now a United Pentecostal preacher, documents his abuse as a young high school boy of around 14 by Tommy Shelton:
Click here to read full text of Brad's January 4, 2007, email.
4. Duane Clem goes through a revealing progression from sending adversarial PMs to the investigators to finally mustering the strength and courage to come forward with the email confession from Tommy Shelton and a statement about his abuse at age 19.
Click here to read the background of contact with Duane Clem.
Click here to read his original position as he made contact with an investigator.
Click here to read Duane Clem's apology to the investigators, and further explanation on Glen Dryden
Click here to read in full Duane Clem's January 20, 2007 statement regarding his abuse by his trusted pastor.
Here are a few of his own words but I would urge all to read his entire statement to see the whole picture:
"Sometime in late 1985 or early 1986, Tommy came to me and said he had an unusual medical problem and asked for my help. I was shocked. I had previously been told by two other young men that he had said the same thing to them, but I could not believe that they were telling me the truth, even though they told me identical stories at two different times. Now I was hearing these words from my pastor. I felt trapped. I wanted to say something right then, but I didn't. I had vigorously defended him against allegations in the past, and had even lost friends because of it. I had written a letter saying nothing had happened to me. I had told the police nothing happened. Now, here I was, 19 years old, with NO ONE I felt I could talk to about it.
Over the next few months, Tommy and I would meet at his house, the church, the original 3ABN building, and even one night on a back country road, anywhere he thought no one would see us. There was a lot of inappropriate touching, but nothing further. He wanted much more out of it, but I couldn't let it happen because in my heart I knew it wasn't right. I was wrestling with thoughts like "What if someone finds out? What will happen to the church ... his family ... my family? Who would believe me anyway?"
Whenever he would be touching me, I would get muscle spasms in my back. I guess it was because I was so tense. More than once he sensed that I was in pain, and a couple of times he even accused me of "faking it" because I didn't care or didn't want to help him. I really started questioning if I was in the wrong. It was constant mental and emotional turmoil."
5. Sherry Avery comes forward to describe an event she personally witnessed and the reaction she received when
Click here to read the full statement by Sherry Avery.
What started with concerns from mutual friends about Tommy wanting to privately counsel boys in his room at their home as well as the accusations of misconduct from Brad Dunning tore at Sherry Avery. She prayed for clarity. In October, 1984, her concerns were confirmed when she found Tommy and a boy at her friend's weekend home. He said it was his son, Ricky, but she went and saw for herself that Ricky was at school playing basketball. She went back and confronted Tommy:
"My question to him was, "What is going on? You've been caught haven't you?" His reply was, "I knew you would think that something was going on. I [page 2] was just cutting his hair." I asked him why the bed was a mess and he just said, "I don't know." He said he didn't have a chance anymore; he had to hide everything he did because everyone would think the worst. He then told me he would leave the church. I told him to do what he thought he should do and I left.
That afternoon he sent Carol to talk to me. She told me I was mistaken on what I saw and he was just trying to help this boy. She said I was just jealous of Tommy and his relationship with our mutual friends. I thought, why or how would he come up with that? She told me it would ruin the church and it would be my fault. We talked for hours that night just enough for me to question what I should do. I decided I would not tell anyone what went on that day but continue to watch and pray for God to tell me what to do. I thought it was enough to scare Tommy into changing his ways. I wanted him to get help.
Several months went by and I was praying constantly telling others I had a great burden and needed them to help me pray about it. One Sunday while at the same house with my friends, Ricky came in. He was really upset; his dad was going on another trip and was taking one of the young boys with him (the same boy that was at the house with him that day in October). Ricky cried and asked why his dad would take these other boys and not take him. Well, that did it for me. The next day I went to my friends (the mutual friends who owned the house) and told them the whole story. They both realized that Tommy had a problem and I will never forget the words said, "Even if he were my blood son he must be confronted; he must pay for his sins." That's all I needed, I had to go home and talk with one of the leaders in the church, the Sunday School Supt."
The outcome was that majority of the church members chose to stand in allegience to Tommy. Sherry reports that these loyal church members turned on her and her family as well as the boys who broke silence and came forward.
There is a consistancy here in all of this documentation, including Tommy's confession. Are they all lying? If so, why? Would each individual risk legal action for slander and defamation of character in order to take down Tommy Shelton due to their being jealous? Unlikely.

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