3 Questions

[EmSw]

His term "scripted by God" is the key why he believes Calvinism to be fatalism.

He's wrong in using that term of course.

Okay Marvin, to make you happy, I'll substitute 'planned'. Maybe you should look up the meaning of 'scripted'.

The Westminster Confession of Faith expresses what is arguably the basics of so called Calvinism.

The WCF purposefully excludes any possibility of interpreting what they teach as fatalism.

Albion gave us the definition of fatalism - Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable

How does the WCF exclude any possibility of fatalism according to this definition? They not only quicken it, they enforce it with the mighty pen.

They make it a point to say that God predestined in such a way that sins proceed only from the creature and not from the creator and that "violence" is not done to the will of men.

IN SUCH A WAY? If these men were so knowledgeable of God's will before eternity, surely they can state and explain this unknown way.

Being the First Cause, does not exempt one from the resulting behavior of others.

To not note that pertinent point right up front when identifying Calvinism is to be a dishonest person IMO.

Marvin, I have noted that point, but it does not mean I have to accept and believe it. Bill Clinton said he did not have sex with Monica Lewinsky, does that mean he was innocent of any sexual behavior just by his saying it? Just because man says something does not make it true.

That really doesn't surprise me coming from one who doesn't even seem to understand the basics of salvation.

I'm happy you know the basics of salvation, and I hope you put it to good use.

However, if I am blind and don't understand spiritual things, then your doctrine of total depravity is false. For I love God with all my heart, I seek to follow Him every day, I look to Him for guidance, and His commandments are the delight of my heart.

 

[EmSw]

In your opinion.

And most do not see it the way you do or have a problem with it. You claim that predestination is the center of our belief (which is not true) but one thing that can be said with absolute certainty is that predestination is the center of your uninformed rant against Calvinism.

Who is thinking about predestination all the time? YOU ARE.

.

It is the heart of Calvinism, for without predestination, Calvinism is dead.

 

[EmSw]

Read Jesus words in John 10?

"Ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep."

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Man must enter himself, that is, he must do something to be saved.

 

[Albion]

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Man must enter himself, that is, he must do something to be saved.

So? No one here has denied that. The question is simply this: Can a man make this choice by use of his own resources? We'd say "no."

 

[Marvin Knox]

Since Jesus is God, and has the Divine foreknowledge of God, He saw in advance these unbelievers (or naysayers) as never becoming sheep, hence these words. To paraphrase Christ "Had you believed on Me, you would have been deemed to be sheep. But because I know that you are never going to believe, I am hereby declaring -- on the basis of your unbelief -- that you are not of my sheep".

Wow - what a shame that God didn't have you inspire the words of Christ instead of just getting to make things up.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Albion gave us the definition of fatalism - Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable

How does the WCF exclude any possibility of fatalism according to this definition? They not only quicken it, they enforce it with the mighty pen.

So long as it's just that exact definition of fatalism I have no problem accepting the term fatalism.

The problem is when you add the word "scripted" to the meaning of fatalism and or predestination.

The creed is very clear that God is not the author of sin and cannot be. It is also very clear that He does not operate people like puppets or robots.

These things you accuse the WCF of teaching. That's the problem with your words. They effectively lie about what is being said in the creed.

 

[nobdysfool]

It is the heart of Calvinism, for without predestination, Calvinism is dead.

Do you think if you say it enough times it will somehow magically become true?? It is NOT the heart of Calvinism. THAT is the truth, not your childish rant. You can say it until you're purple in the face, and it will not make it so.

Predestination is NOT the heart of Calvinism. That is the last desperate attempt of a man who knows he's lost the argument, but can't bring himself to admit it.

 

[EmSw]

Do you think if you say it enough times it will somehow magically become true?? It is NOT the heart of Calvinism. THAT is the truth, not your childish rant. You can say it until you're purple in the face, and it will not make it so.

Predestination is NOT the heart of Calvinism. That is the last desperate attempt of a man who knows he's lost the argument, but can't bring himself to admit it.

Then deny predestination and let's see how far you get with your beliefs.

 

[EmSw]

So? No one here has denied that. The question is simply this: Can a man make this choice by use of his own resources? We'd say "no."

We'd? I thought you were not a Calvinist. I think you are a closet Calvinist, and maybe afraid or ashamed to admit it.

 

[EmSw]

So long as it's just that exact definition of fatalism I have no problem accepting the term fatalism.

The problem is when you add the word "scripted" to the meaning of fatalism and or predestination.

The creed is very clear that God is not the author of sin and cannot be. It is also very clear that He does not operate people like puppets or robots.

These things you accuse the WCF of teaching. That's the problem with your words. They effectively lie about what is being said in the creed.

I didn't think you would accept the term 'fatalism', but I am glad you are honest here.

I said above you can substitute 'planned' for 'scripted'.

As I said before, Clinton was not guilty of sexual behavior with Monica Lewinsky just because he said he wasn't. Adding anything you say does not change the fact. The WCF authors can say whatever they like; that doesn't prove they don't make God the author of sin.

If I effectively lie about what's said in the creed, then the WCF authors effectively lie about what they said. Remember, what's good for the goose if good for the gander.

Besides Marvin, read the disclaimer in my signature. I am not the author, nor am I guilty for anything I predestine to put in words, because I say so.

 

[nobdysfool]

Then deny predestination and let's see how far you get with your beliefs.

I have no intention of denying the clear teaching of Scripture.

 

[nobdysfool]

We'd? I thought you were not a Calvinist. I think you are a closet Calvinist, and maybe afraid or ashamed to admit it.

Who cares? What does that have to do with anything?

 

[EmSw]

Who cares? What does that have to do with anything?

Nothing to do with you.

 

[EmSw]

I have no intention of denying the clear teaching of Scripture.

Your intention doesn't count. If God predestines you to deny it, you will, and you will do it gladly.

 

[Albion]

We'd? I thought you were not a Calvinist. I think you are a closet Calvinist, and maybe afraid or ashamed to admit it.

I have the strong feeling that you think almost everyone but you is a Calvinist. Those who agree with Calvin, those who don't agree with Calvin, those who say they are not Calvinists, and those who argue against Calvinist concepts...they're all either open Calvinists or, if they aren't Calvinists, you can call them "closet" Calvinists.

The other thing we now have confirmed by this ^ post is that the purpose behind these threads is to denigrate people suspected of being Calvinists (however incorrectly), rather than to get answers about Predestination.

 

[EmSw]

I have the strong feeling that you think almost everyone but you is a Calvinist. Those who agree with Calvin, those who don't agree with Calvin, those who say they are not Calvinists, and those who argue against Calvinist concepts...they're all either open Calvinists or, if they aren't Calvinists, you can call them "closet" Calvinists.

The other thing we now have confirmed by this ^ post is that the purpose behind these threads is to denigrate people suspected of being Calvinists (however incorrectly), rather than to get answers about Predestination.

If it looks like a mouse, squeaks like a mouse, smells like a mouse, acts like a mouse, then it must be a mouse.

 

[Albion]

If it looks like a mouse, squeaks like a mouse, smells like a mouse, acts like a mouse, then it must be a mouse.

Again, that "mouse" exists only in your imagination.

 

[EmSw]

Again, that "mouse" exists only in your imagination.

Like many others on this forum, you assume to know what is inside me.

 

[Albion]

Like many others on this forum, you assume to know what is inside me.

What I said was anything BUT an assumption. As was noted before, you have created your own definition of "Calvinist" that isn't accurate--and then set out to slay it. In other words, your "mouse" neither looks like a real mouse, squeeks like a mouse, smells like a mouse, or acts like a mouse. Therefore, declaring it to be a mouse is the only "assuming" going on here.

 

[EmSw]

What I said was anything BUT an assumption. As was noted before, you have created your own definition of "Calvinist" that isn't accurate--and then set out to slay it. In other words, your "mouse" neither looks like a real mouse, squeeks like a mouse, smells like a mouse, or acts like a mouse. Therefore, declaring it to be a mouse is the only "assuming" going on here.

What have I created that isn't accurate? What is it about predestination that 'Calvinists' don't like? It seems don't even like to talk about it. You, on the other hand, do not claim to be a Calvinist, but you speak just like one.