3 Questions

[EmSw]

You haven't given any evidence to prove that you're right, either.

I think you see the fallacy of predestination. I've asked which point in TULIP doesn't depend upon predestination, and no answer was forthcoming. The truth is, without predestination, you don't have Calvinism.

 

[EmSw]

I never said you did, or could. I said YOU can control what YOU say, and quite frankly, you should.

Would controlling what I say make you happy? Why doesn't predestination control what I say? If I am predestined to say what I do, you should gladly accept God's determination for my life. To fight against what I say, is fighting against God's predestination. And as you see, predestination just doesn't sit right with you.

 

[nobdysfool]

You can go on believing that fantasy if you want. It falls on you to prove that you're right, because what you say is
Calvinism does not square with any real Calvinist belief. Therefore you are the one out of step and you are the one that must provide the proof of your position, with more than just mindless assertions. Real, substantive proof.

 

[EmSw]

You can go on believing that fantasy if you want. It falls on you to prove that you're right, because what you say is
Calvinism does not square with any real Calvinist belief. Therefore you are the one out of step and you are the one that must proved the proof of your position, with more than just mindless assertions. Real, substantive proof.

You can't prove something which does not exist. You say predestination exists, therefore, the burden of proof is on you.

 

[nobdysfool]

Would controlling what I say make you happy? Why doesn't predestination control what I say? If I am predestined to say what I do, you should gladly accept God's determination for my life. To fight against what I say, is fighting against God's predestination. And as you see, predestination just doesn't sit right with you.

Since, unlike you, predestination does not occupy my every waking thought, and I don't constantly think about in (like you do), your statement is meaningless, as it has no basis in fact. Have a nice day.

 

[nobdysfool]

You can't prove something which does not exist. You say predestination exists, therefore, the burden of proof is on you.

You spend an awful lot of time thinking and speaking about something you claim doesn't exist. Since predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it clearly does exist.

Burden of proof is on you to disprove what the Bible says does exist.

 

[EmSw]

You spend an awful lot of time thinking and speaking about something you claim doesn't exist. Since predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it clearly does exist.

Burden of proof is on you to disprove what the Bible says does exist.

Calvinist predestination is not the predestination of which the Bible speaks.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Can you separate the two?

Yes

 

[Marvin Knox]

To separate predestination from Calvinism, is removing the heart of Calvinism.

To separate predestination from God's Word is to remove the very nature and purpose of all creation from God's eternal plan for the ages.

".......My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

"....by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Colossians 1:16-17

 

[Marvin Knox]

Does predestination come after the fact? Do I do something and God predestines it? Or, does predestination come before the fact? That is, does God predestine, and then I act accordingly?

God predestines and then you act accordingly.

If God knew "before the foundation of the world" all that would happen (and He did) - there was absolutely no chance that what He knew would happen would not happen. It was destined to happen from before the foundation of the world.

Since all things exist by and for His Word which He sent forth to accomplish a plan - God is the one who predestines all things.

This isn't exactly rocket science.

 

[Albion]

So, you equate Calvinism with fatalism.

I equated your description of Calvinism with fatalism. Read the post again.

 

[EmSw]

Yes

So Marvin, without predestination, do you still have Calvinism?

This is like saying without God's law, you still have Judaism.

 

[EmSw]

I equated your misinterpretation of Calvinism as fatalism.

How did I misrepresent Calvinism by ASKING three questions? I wasn't making a statement.

 

[Albion]

How did I misrepresent Calvinism by ASKING three questions? I wasn't making a statement.

Here's exactly what you wrote, what I quoted, and what I was responding to--

I would say, Calvinism is the belief everything is predestined, upon which everything is scripted by God.

If you believe what you wrote there, that's fatalism you're referring to.

fa•tal•ism (fātˈl-ĭzˌəm)
►

• n.
  The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.
• n.
  Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Here's exactly what you wrote, what I quoted, and what I was responding to--

"I would say, Calvinism is the belief everything is predestined, upon which everything is scripted by God."

If you believe what you wrote there, that's fatalism you're referring to.

His term "scripted by God" is the key why he believes Calvinism to be fatalism.

He's wrong in using that term of course.

The Westminster Confession of Faith expresses what is arguably the basics of so called Calvinism.

The WCF purposefully excludes any possibility of interpreting what they teach as fatalism.

They make it a point to say that God predestined in such a way that sins proceed only from the creature and not from the creator and that "violence" is not done to the will of men.

To not note that pertinent point right up front when identifying Calvinism is to be a dishonest person IMO.

That really doesn't surprise me coming from one who doesn't even seem to understand the basics of salvation.

 

[Job8]

Calvinist predestination is not the predestination of which the Bible speaks.

You will never get a Calvinist to admit this, but it is perfectly true. In the Bible predestination is always with respect to the perfection of the saints, never to the selection of sinners for salvation.

 

[Albion]

You will never get a Calvinist to admit this, but it is perfectly true. In the Bible predestination is always with respect to the perfection of the saints, never to the selection of sinners for salvation.

Read Jesus words in John 10?

"Ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep."

 

[EmSw]

Here's exactly what you wrote, what I quoted, and what I was responding to--

If you believe what you wrote there, that's fatalism you're referring to.

fa•tal•ism (fātˈl-ĭzˌəm)
►

• n.
  The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.
• n.
  Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

I would like to hear just one Calvinist who says everything was not predestined by God. JUST ONE!

Hmmm, acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable. What is Calvinism if it isn't this?

 

[Job8]

Read Jesus words in John 10?

"Ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep."

Since Jesus is God, and has the Divine foreknowledge of God, He saw in advance these unbelievers (or naysayers) as never becoming sheep, hence these words. To paraphrase Christ "Had you believed on Me, you would have been deemed to be sheep. But because I know that you are never going to believe, I am hereby declaring -- on the basis of your unbelief -- that you are not of my sheep".

 

[nobdysfool]

Calvinist predestination is not the predestination of which the Bible speaks.

In your opinion.

And most do not see it the way you do or have a problem with it. You claim that predestination is the center of our belief (which is not true) but one thing that can be said with absolute certainty is that predestination is the center of your uninformed rant against Calvinism.

Who is thinking about predestination all the time? YOU ARE.

.