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TULIP doesn't have a leg to stand on without predestination. Please show me how any of the components have any life without predestination.
Actually no, it doesn't.
Calvinism is based on the TULIP, and none of the 5 points mention predestination.
This idea of yours, that predestination is the heart of Calvinism, is a fantasy. It is false.
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And yet, what you say is predestined by God.
You have never proven, nor can you prove that allegation. It is a fantasy. It is false.
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Yes, it is, and I freely stated it. God knew that I would say it, and predestined that I would, yet I chose freely to say it, with no compulsion whatsoever.
I would say, Calvinism is the belief everything is predestined, upon which everything is scripted by God.
I am not in agreement with most of what you are saying so please look at my posts 54 and 56.You could ask me the same thing, I think.
Paul can bring us to more than what we understand by only seeing what Jeremiah 18 says. He is not only repeating what has already been said, but showing more.
And, again, I find it interesting how we all have been made "from the same lump".
And there is other scripture which I think can be included in the context. Jesus says that only God is good. So, to me it is theo-logical, that only God has the goodness to produce a good choice. So, only thanks to God has any evil person changed to choose what is good. And we all have been evil, according to what I see in Ephesians 2:1-3 which plainly says "we all" "were by nature children of wrath" > it was not our nature to make a right choice, then. And Romans 6:17 says the thanks is to God; the thanks is not to us!!!!
And my personal logic is that if we all came "from the same lump", how could one have the nature to make an evil choice, while another from the exact same lump and nature would have the nature to choose what is good? I understand, though, that this is just logic.
But I have shown I have various scripture as context.
Anyway . . . another thing > just my sort of scholarly logic, though, I admit > if God can be the Potter of a whole group of people, then He is being the Potter of each individual in that group, in order to have the sum total result of being the Potter for the group. It's kind of hard to effect a whole group, without personally effecting every individual in that group.
And God is personally relating with every human, in some way >
"God resists the proud,
.But gives grace to the humble,"
we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. And with this we have that "He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." (in Romans 9:18) This, I would say, supports that God personally deals with each person, as each one's personal Potter. . . while, of course, there can be group effects which are the sum total to how God deals with individuals.
I gave my answer freely, and I am sticking with it.
I don't know why predestination gives you so much trouble. It is your very life; everything you think, say, and do depends upon predestination.
I can't control what other people do, But you can control what you do. Why don't you concentrate on that and let the other people say what they will.
So, this is YOUR belief we're talking about. IOW, this is the stereotype of "Calvinism" that you accept.
I can't control what other people do, But you can control what you do. Why don't you concentrate on that and let the other people say what they will.
albion said:So, this is YOUR belief we're talking about. IOW, this is the stereotype of "Calvinism" that you accept.
I've never told you what or what not to say. Shout it from the rooftops.
That's not my understanding, but if this is the meaning you placed on the word in the OP, the questions become:
1. According to fatalist thought, does foreordination exist? obviously
2. According to fatalist thought, did God foreordain everything? obviously
3. According to fatalist thought, does God's foreordination change? uncertain
Does predestination come after the fact? Do I do something and God predestines it? Or, does predestination come before the fact? That is, does God predestine, and then I act accordingly?
Yes, it is is his belief, and no one else's It is as he chooses to see it, apart from any evidence and is a totally made up fantasy.
So, you equate Calvinism with fatalism.
You haven't given any evidence to prove me wrong.
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