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3 equal 1?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by millenialeden, Jan 17, 2003.

  1. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    milleniaeden:

    Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian. However, they do not believe that Jesus is God Almighty. Rather, that he is a son of Almighty God. They also believe that to worship Jesus is idolatry, as Jesus was a created being. The first born of all creation. The only-begotten son of God.
    Son means having a beginning....an offspring. Father means lifegiver.

    Jesus said to pray this way....."Our Father who art in heaven....."
    He did NOT say to pray this way..."Our Trinity God who art in heaven...."
    NOR did he say to pray this way...."Our Jesus, or son of God, who art in ..."

    Christendom.....(the churches) is good at saying.....this means that or that means this.......but they completely avoid Jesus' commands!

    To worship only the Father just as Jesus did.
    To preach the good news publically just as Jesus did.
    To be no part of the world just as Jesus was.

    God Almighty does not die. He is from everlasting to everlasting.
    Jesus died. It took God Almighty to resurrect him.

    What a mockery for us if Jesus was Almighty God and Satan tempted him.

    When on earth, Jesus prayed to God for direction and strength...and for God's will to be done, and not his own.

    What twisted reasoning has embedded bloodguilty christendom for centuries.

    Jesus said you will know his disciples by the love they have among themselves. However christendom has centuries of history of waging war not only against pagans and jews, but also amongst themselves.

    However, their standard is......not their fruit....but their proud doctrine of a mysterious trinity god. In other words, they like to change Jesus' teaching to: You will know my disciples by their profession of the trinity!

    Their fruitage, conduct, and unity is self-evident that there is a grave error.

    Sincerely,
    Lared
     
  2. stillsmallvoice

    stillsmallvoice The Narn rule!

    +174
    Judaism
    Married
    Hi all!

    This coming Saturday we (Jews the world over) will read Exodus 18:1-20:23 in synagogue. Our Sages comment on the strange syntax of Exodus 20:3.

    In the (original!) Hebrew, this is:

    ìà éäéä ìê àì÷éí àçøéí òì-ôðé

    or Lo yihyeh elokim aherim al panai.

    What's strange about this is that the verb yihyeh ("will have") is singular while the subject elokim ("gods") is plural. Grammatically, both verb and subject should be both either singular or plural, but this is not the case here. This is no mere semantics. We believe that every word and every letter of the Torah are full of meaning & are there to teach us something. Although this verb-and-subject-don't-jibe phenomenon recurs in the scripture, our Sages have endeavored to learn why it is used here. The phrase goes from the singular to the plural. I cannot help but think that this is a refutation of the Christian concept of a triune God, i.e. that in this verse, which links the singular & the many, the Torah is telling us that we cannot claim that He who is singular & utterly unique is, in fact, many. The reflexive connotation of the seemingly redundant al panai, which literally means "in/on my face" but is an expression meaning "in my place/in my stead," only adds to this. In effect, God is using Exodus 20:3 to tell us (inter alia): Do not claim that I, the One, am I, the Many.

    Just some (kosher) food for thought!

    Be well!

    ssv :wave:
     
  3. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "3 still doesn't equal 1."

    Sure it does, do we understand HOW it does. No, but so what? i don't understand why God loves me so much either. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it true. In fact, the best way, in my opinion, to describe God is mystery. You can never know all of him, and I'm looking forward to eternity when I can try it though.
     
  4. millenialeden

    millenialeden Wondering Soul

    27
    +1
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. We obviously have totally different views on this subject.
     
  5. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "I guess we will have to agree to disagree. We obviously have totally different views on this subject.
    "

    I'm guessing so. Of what relgion are you, or do you not have one?
     
  6. millenialeden

    millenialeden Wondering Soul

    27
    +1
    I want to convert to Judaism. I current am not affiliated with any religion.
     
  7. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "I want to convert to Judaism."

    Okay. Read the gospel of Matt and then some of paul's letters.
     
  8. millenialeden

    millenialeden Wondering Soul

    27
    +1
    I have read part of Matthew and Some of Paul's letters. I believe the Jewish Messianic Prophecies to be true. If you want my reason. Well there are many. To name a few.

    I don't think Jesus was the Messiah.

    I believe the Jewish faith to be true.

    This is where my heart tells me it is right.

    I never truly felt at home amonst Christians.

    I believe there are many good people out there and I don't believe just because they don't believe in Jesus that they are condemned to hell.

    I believe the Christianity has become idolatrious.

    I believe that the first followers of Jesus were mistaken and looking for the Messiah in all the wrong places.

    There are more. These are just to name a few.
    I don't have scripture to back up my belief, but I have a heartfelt felling in which I've done a lot of praying and searching.

    If you would like to know more please let me know.
     
  9. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "I never truly felt at home amonst Christians."

    Hmm..how so?

    "I believe the Christianity has become idolatrious."

    I agree..but that doesn't mean its not true, it means the people have not shown you the correct way.
     
  10. Hank

    Hank has the Right to be wrong

    +50
    Atheist
    CA-Conservatives
    http://www.koshertorah.com/sample6.html

    Before converting, first seek a well educated Rabbi to guide you and to do some soal searching.
     
  11. Hank

    Hank has the Right to be wrong

    +50
    Atheist
    CA-Conservatives
    You too? Same here. It is in the heart, as you wrote also.
     
  12. millenialeden

    millenialeden Wondering Soul

    27
    +1
    "You too? Same here. It is in the heart, as you wrote also."

    Yes. I will follow your advise. I have done quite a bit of soul searching. I feel like this is the right path for me. I would like to consult an Orthodox rabbi.

    Thank your for your posts.
     
  13. taps

    taps Who wants to dance?<img src="http://www3.christian

    34
    +0
    Non-Denom
    Genesis 1:26
    Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

    John 1:1-2
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
    John 1:14
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 10:30
    I and the Father are one.

    John 14:11
    "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."
    John 10:33
    "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


    Jesus knew the scripture and the law just as well as any rabbi, he was familiar with the commandment, (Ex. 20:3) You shall have no other gods before me. Why would Jesus allow people to worship him when God said worship no one but me? Unless....Jesus was God himself!

    There are many people who take the word 'Son' literally. However, 'Son' was used to express an idea to the people of that time. A Son was a (for lack of better words) representation or clone of the Father. Jesus claimed to be God's Son and therefore claimed to be representative clone of God, allowing him to be equal with God, the Father.

    This concept is not easy to grasp, but then again that is the point. If God was not more intelligent or not more complex than we could imagine, then He would not be God and we would be Gods ourselves. In fact, we cannot comprehend any of the Scriptures unless the Holy Spirit lives in us. (1 Cor. 3:1-3) To try to define God is useless, we can only read and believe what was revealed to the apostles.

    I will say Good Bye on this note:
    Romans 11:33-36
    Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
    How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
    Who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has been his counselor?
    Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?
    For from him and through him and to him are all things.
    To him be the glory forever! Amen.
     
  14. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

    +2,058
    Christian
    Married
    You left out a few things about JW.&nbsp; One they also believe he use to be an angel. That and Jesus&nbsp;a created being does not make them saved.&nbsp;&nbsp;
     
  15. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    Blade,
    You are right. Jesus was and is an angel. In fact he is the archangel.
    Jehovah's first creative act was to produce a spirit son or angel. That happened to be Jesus.
    Later, Almighty God Jehovah sent Jesus to the earth. He was placed in the womb of Mary and was born a perfect human. His death provided the ransom sacrifice needed for us. We need to exercise faith in the sin atoning sacrifice of Jesus but of course, always worship Almighty God Jehovah just as Abraham, Moses, David, and many others, including Jesus did.
    Sincerely, Lared
     
  16. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "That happened to be Jesus."

    I disgree, scripture clearly states that he was not a created being. Christ is, was and ever will be.
     
  17. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    Outspoken,
    Of course Jesus was created. He was the first born of all creation. That is very clear.
    You also said that Jesus was, is, and always will be. You forgot that he was dead for parts of three days.
    Only the Father is from everlasting to everlasting. He never died. But Jesus did....at least that is what I believe.....that he died for our sins.
    Sincerely, Lared
     
  18. millenialeden

    millenialeden Wondering Soul

    27
    +1
    Outspoken said, "I disgree, scripture clearly states that he was not a created being. Christ is, was and ever will be."

    Where in the Tanakh(Old Testiment) state this? Where does it specifically talk about Jesus?

    I am only curious as to the Tanakh Scripture because I honestly don't hold much credit to the New Testiment. Just my opinion.
     
  19. taps

    taps Who wants to dance?<img src="http://www3.christian

    34
    +0
    Non-Denom
  20. Hank

    Hank has the Right to be wrong

    +50
    Atheist
    CA-Conservatives
    All quotes from NIV

    Isiah 53:4
    Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

    This refers to the servant. Now if Jesus is the servant, where does the NT confirm that passage?

    Psalm 16:9-10
    Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

    In context: David addresses God. There is nothing more one can read into it.

    Psalm 8:4
    what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?

    Hebrew 2:6-8
    But there is a place where someone has testified: "What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor and put everything under his feet.? In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.

    So?

    Psalm 22:1-2
    My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent.


    Again taken out of context.

    Even I can yell to God "My God, My God why have you forsaken me!" Would this act make me the Messiah? I sure hope not.

    Psalm 22:15-21
    My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
    you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones;
    people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

    But you, O LORD , be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me. Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.


    Does not complete the image of a crucifixion, now does it?

    Try again. There are over 330 passages more to go. Even I would not have the patience to counter each.
     
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