25 years in Faith Movement:The TRUTH

[SavedByGrace3]

"If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that He died for your sins, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Amen! I agree 100%

 

[AndOne]

HEY BEN - it's me, the Payable On Death - er SAR DOG - from the Left Behind Boards. Just dropping in to say hello...

WOW - I never thought in a million years I would hear someone from the Faith movement defend the position of Eternal Security. I think he does a good job personally - Hobart, are you sure your FM?

Interesting you quote Hank Hennograph, Ben - did you know that he is an ardent teacher of OSAS - Eternal Security??

Well - thats all from me - have fun guys - thanks for keeping it civil...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

WOW - I never thought in a million years I would hear someone from the Faith movement defend the position of Eternal Security. I think he does a good job personally - Hobart, are you sure your FM?

Everybody is OSAS, they just don't know it or have not come to the place where they can articulate the thing that their spirit knows to be true.

People make a big deal about differences they see in what they believe and what they see others teach. Truth is, people rarely teach what they believe, nor do they always believe what they teach. And this is because most people do not know what it means to believe. Most well meaning folks think that to think something is to believe it. This is simply not so.

In discussions with people I often hear them say things like "I believe the entire Bible, from cover to cover." Truth is, if pressed, they in fact do not even know 1% of the Bible much less believe 100% of it. Even by the above mentioned definition of believe, one would have to at least know something well enough to quote it before they could be said to 'believe' it. I like to ask such folks to quote from some obscure passage only for the purpose of asking them how could they believe something they do not even know. Of course I know what they mean is that they mentally assent to the whole Bible. They in theory believe the entire Bible. Theoretical faith is just that. Theoretical. True faith has substance and evidence.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Theories are proven when substance and evidence are present. If you say you "believe" something you should at least be able to articulate it. If you cannot speak it, you do not believe it.

The other side is true also. Just because you can say a thing that does not mean you believe it. In fact, if we understand Jesus correctly, if you believe something and say the same thing that you believe, then you will have what you say. The fact that everything we say does not come to pass is proof that we do not believe everything we say. This is where many faith people (and teachers) miss the idea. You have to believe it. Which brings me back to the beginning. Most people do not say what they really believe, nor do they always believe what they say.

The reality is that people believe what the Spirit reveals into their heart. They may not be able to fully and logically explain what they believe, but they do believe. On the other hand, people often can expound loud and long on a subject from their mind, but in reality, they do not believe it in their heart because the Spirit never revealed the words into them.

So the hearts and minds of many people are in a struggle. They are "two-souled", if you will. Until they settle in on what the Spirit has shown them, they will be very frustrated and confused.

 

[Ben johnson]

Interesting you quote Hank Hannograph, Ben - did you know that he is an ardent teacher of OSAS - Eternal Security??

Well, we can't ALL be perfect, can we???

Everybody is OSAS, they just don't know it or have not come to the place where they can articulate the thing that their spirit knows to be true.

I wouldn't be too sure of that, Hobart. I think all of the warnings are a bit more than "hypothetical". Take 1Tim4: "Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons". I think Paul was just a bit serious here. (Especially with the end of the chapter, "Pay close attention to yourself and your teaching, persevere in these things; for as you do this you will save yoursef and those who hear you.)

Salvation is "belief/faith/abiding-in-Christ/born-again/new-creation/walking-in-the-Spirit/fellowship-with-CHrist". All in one, one in all.

(Wonder if "The Three Musketeers" would be helpful in contemplating the Trinity??? {Ben files that for future pondering...})

We are admonished to "not be deceived by sin to falling from the living God"; "for each is tempted when he is carried away by his own lust. Lust concieved gives birth to sin, sin brings forth death" (Jms1:14-15, and it is addressed to the saved).

But, then again, if one who holds "OSAS" also understands the "persevere/fellowship" essence of salvation, then he (or she) and I can fellowship perfectly through life without contention...

We are called first, and last, to love...

 

[Andrew]

" Take 1Tim4: "Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, "

Ben, you need to determine what "THE faith" is in the Bible. It is righteous faith, or faith to believe that you are righteous by His blood, not by trying to keep yourself saved. IOW righteous faith presupposes OSAS.

The verse is not talking about Christians losing their salvation.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

(1.) People want to believe that God is involved in their lives. When a loved one dies a needless death, or some other such tragedy occurs, we want to believe that God was somehow involved because the only other alternatives we can conceive are to sad to accept. We do not want to believe that He:

• did not care enough about us to prevent it, or
• is not involved in our lives to the degree that we think He is, or
• is not in control of events to the degree we assume He is, or
• simply could not do anything about it.

So we construct reasonings and attempt to rationalize God into the event in any way we can. We imagine that He was using or even constructing the event for our good. It is meant to teach us something or to to somehow improve us in some spiritual way.

(2.) In doing so we unwittingly short circuit the methods that He has set up for us to overcome and prevent such things from occurring in our lives. By assuming that He is somehow involved in the events, we will not believe against them. Like Job, because we assume that "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away", we surrender to such an extent that we willingly alter our image of God to match the events in our lives. Because we hold a warped image of God, we limit the ability and power of God in our lives to that image. We will not believe beyond our knowledge. If our knowledge about God assumes that He takes away, then we will not resist the loss of anything. Instead of fighting the good fight of faith, we surrender to the sad fate of the inevitable. We settle for the ease of resignation and call that faith.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hey Hobart,

Just wanted to let you know I'm learning a lot from this thread. Some of the info I'm having to chew on a little bit though. I'm jotting my questions down and will ask them later. Sometimes I've had a question and then you answered it on the next page.

Thanks for your hard work, it is appreciated

 

[LouisBooth]

"Instead of fighting the good fight of faith, we surrender to the sad fate of the inevitable. We settle for the ease of resignation and call that faith."

I fully disagree. Saying God doesn't give us material weath means we lack faith is a gross misinterption of Who God is and how he works. God isn't a meal ticket and never will be. I firmly believe that it is his will that some be dirt poor and never have any wealth at all.

I don't care how much faith you have, if God doesn't want to give it to you, its not happening.

 

[Andrew]

There you go again Louis. :O

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I don't care how much faith you have, if God doesn't want to give it to you, its not happening.

This is why 99% of God's people are sick, dying, and are dirt poor.

Jesus said that you have to believe you receive when you pray.  In order to have faith you have to know absolutely that it is the will of God for you to receive. How does one find this out? You find out the will of God in the Word of God. It is not a mysterious thing, nor is it different for one person than another. His love, provision, and promises are the same toward everyone.

From experience, I have to say that 99% of the people who hold the opinion that the will of God varies from one person to another fail to recieve the majority of the time. They have nothing to base their faith on.  They cannot say what it is they are believing because they do not know. This is not a 'lack of faith', it is out and out unbelief!  They have "general" faith in a general good God. Or, as you have stated above, they even believe that God is not good in that He does not want His children to be healthy and have their needs met.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Hobie,
you said,
#50


quote:
I don't care how much faith you have, if God doesn't want to give it to you, its not happening.


This is why 99% of God's people are sick, dying, and are dirt poor.

Haha you are so out of it. Do you live in a bubble brother?

There are more Christians living south of the equator in dirt poor countries, than up here in our 'rich' USA and in Europe combined.

Second, all living-on-this-earth Christians are dying, 100% of them. But they are not dying due to lack of faith, but due to the consequences of sin, from Adam on down to their own.

Much of what you have said on these first 5 pages of this thread is true. Some of it though is not true, or at least not giving the premises you offer. I am writing a reply to point these out, and to ask you some questions. But given your last post, I don't think this will be much profit in this discussion. Your theology is slanted and that bias reflects itself in posts like your last one. You simply seem to miss out on the vast realities of life.

I will post it soon, today I hope.

In His love,
mike

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Hobie,

I hope to ask you some questions and point out some things so you can respond to those who doubt you. In many places, I might even agree with your conclusion, or at least think it possible, but I can’t honestly ‘get’ to it from your premises. There seems to be a bit of ‘sloppy’ logic involved, as I hope to point out.

Hobie said:
These words reveal that God displays His love toward His Children in the same way we display our love toward our children; with the exception that His love is greater, His gifts are better, and His power to give is greater. How can it be conceived that our heavenly Father (who is better in every way than earthly fathers) will not only fail to match our good gifts, but will actually deliver bad gifts? Which brings us back to Is 55, and the higher thoughts and ways of God.

My reply,

Part of showing love to our children, is playing an active role in disciplining them. Hebrews 12:4-12 tells us that this discipline will be unpleasant, even painful. Hobie, if you want to give a well-rounded view of Scripture, you should not have skipped over these hardships out loving Father gives to us. You should have worked them into your message. This is one of the very points the ‘faith’ movement is weak on.

Hobie said.
Very often this faith will say "I believe in God, and I know that whatever happens is for our own good, and we just have to believe...". This faith will attribute evil things like death, sickness, or other tragedies to God, while also attributing good things like healing, prosperity, and baptism in the Holy Spirit to the devil.

My reply,
Who believes and says this rot? I don’t mean that there is not some who are so ignorant of the truth as to believe it, but I have never come across these people. Likewise, just because someone says what you have in quotes doesn’t mean that they have ‘resignation faith’ or believe that rot. You make a general characterization that undermines your position because it is too broad and general to be true of most Christians. Trying to establishing a doctrine on these broad sweeping generalizations shows that you probably have little actual grounds for your position.

Hobie says,
True enough Louis. The good news is, God is not asking you to choose. He does not say either or. There is no need to be sick while in your Father's house.
Do people get sick while wandering away? Yes indeed. But they don't have to wander. They can stay close to the Father and remain well. I will agree with you that is better to be sick, and even die physically and be with the Lord than to fall away from the Lord and be lost forever. This is in essence what Paul told the Corinthian fornicator in 1 Cor 5:

My reply,
Later you will reply that ‘This is not to say that all who sick have sinned. Sometimes a cold is just a cold...’ What degree of sickness constitutes sickness from the result of straying from the Father’s house as opposed to being simply a virus or a bug going around?
Your general philosophy is that sickness can be avoided, but not always… huh? Who draws those lines? You? You don’t give any guidance from the Word on how to know when the sickness is just a cold, and when it is a result from straying from God. Your philosophy doesn’t match reality.

Hobie continued speaking,
Hebrews 10
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised

To say:
"He is in charge of everything and all we have to do (or can do) is trust Him, through good or bad."
is not really a profession of faith. It is a devotional resignation to the inevitable that assumes that whatever comes must be of God; and as long as we don't bad mouth or question, then that is "faith" and being "faithful."

My reply,
That is a blatantly wrong thing to assume Hobie. In fact, it is a profession of faith to trust God through good and bad. In 1st Cor. 6 Paul trusted God through these: troubles, hardships, distresses, beatings, imprisonment, riots, hard work, sleepless nights, hunger, poor and having nothing. But to you, being poor is a lack of faith! Oh, if Paul only had the faith Hobie has, what greater work for God could he have done! You do not know the reality of life or of God’s servants.

More on the next post.

In His love,
mike

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Hobie,

I continue to critique your posts.

You said,
There are two kinds of sin for the new testament Christian. There is "sin unto death", and "sin not unto death". The sin unto death is the sin "after the similitude of Adam", that causes one to die spiritually, and results in a loss of relationship with the Father. Sin not unto death is sin that does not cause you to die spiritually, but does cause you to lose fellowship, and may eventually result in a judgment against you, leading to physical death.

My reply,
You have slipped into conjecture here. All sin not covered by the blood is sin unto death. Adam sinned by disobeying a command of God. Those who followed after him and before the Law was given sinned by violating their consciences or their own judgment pronounced on others [the Golden Rule]. There is no special ‘sin unto death’ after the ‘similitude of Adam’. For all you know, the sin mentioned in 1st John 5 could mean suicide. Lets look at your paraphrase:

Let me paraphrase and emphasize these verses for clarities sake:

1 John 5 (Hobie paraphrase)

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him (physical) life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is sin not unto (spiritual) death.


First of all, not all sins unto death in your own philosophy lead to physical death, so why would you pray for physical life for one if his physical life wasn’t in danger? Second, why do you arbitrarily assign spiritual and physical to each? If it isn’t arbitrary, then why didn’t you give the reasons and scriptural proof for your choices?

You go on to say:
Look at what Paul said about the sowing of the flesh, and where we would reap the corruption:

Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

"...he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.."

You are going to pay for unconfessed sins of the flesh by the corruption of your flesh. This is why John said to pray for those who you see sinning sins of the flesh. You can save them from that corruption. The words say that the Lord will "...give them life ...".(1 John 5:16)

my reply.
First, not all corruption is death. But the principle is that if we sow unto the flesh we will reap corruption. It would be like shooting someone and being sentenced to jail. No amount of faith in God would necessarily annul your jail sentence. What you sow in the flesh, you reap. But God rewards those who sow in the Spirit.
Second, in 1st Cor.5, Paul doesn’t mind allowing the fornicator to reap his corruption in the flesh. He knows that the destruction of that idol and the man’s dependence on it will lead him back to God. Sometimes there is a lesson to be learned by reaping what we sow, like maybe learning not to sow like that again. But as stated before, your philosophy is short on a good Father’s discipline and too high on worldly benefits.
The very fact that we die, and that due to the corruption of sin, shows your philosophy bankrupt at its core. We cannot save ourselves, much less others from death.

You continue,
Here we have a man who was sinning a grievous sin. He was engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife (it does not specify if it was actually his own mother, it may have been a step mother). Could this man still be "saved", or born again?!! Paul states that the man is "among you", opposed to being "among the Gentiles". Paul further says that the man "might be taken away from among you", showing that the man had not yet been taken from among them. But the main point here is that the man was to be "delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh...".

Me.
Yes he was delivered over for punishment, but no where does Paul advocate they pray that this punishment or discipline be prayed for so that it might lessen or disappear. The whole idea was for the discipline to work sorrow in the man’s life so that he would return to the Lord.
Second, it is just conjecture on your part that the man was in danger of eventually denying Christ. You haven’t proved that philosophy and it is not implied in these verses. Rather it is directly implied that that the discipline would save his soul.
We see then that some troubles and trials, even being poor, are the result of our faithful witness for the Lord [as Paul in 1st Cor 6] as the Lord persecutes the Body, and some problems are the result of sin. So as in every trial and tribulation, we should turn to the Lord, trusting Him to see us through, seeking His will in all areas of our life.

Some other areas of false generalizations:

Much of the teaching today has you running to the woods to hide like a servant who go caught with his hands in the coin box.

And,
Most teach that when you sin, you are lost, and cannot approach God.

Most do not teach this at all.
In fact the opposite is true. Many teach that God loves you despite your sin and as long as you try to be true to whatever you believe [Mormon, Buddha, Allah, Jesus, or whatever] God doesn’t care about your sins.

Broaden your horizons Hobie.

More contradictions:

You.
The error of the "general faith" theory is evident. It is an attempt to elevate "hope" to the position of faith. Faith is exact and specific. It knows what the will of God is, and believes it to be so in the face of contradictory circumstances and physical evidence. Hope is not sure what the will of God is, and can only wait and see by the results.

Me.
As you said earlier, faith is spoken by God into our hearts. When one doesn’t know what the will of God is in a certain exact or specific situation, shouldn’t one trust God to see them through. You falsely assume all trouble is sin caused [but sometimes a cold is just a cold?] and being poor is due to lack of faith [poor Paul?] that you then must assume any situation you don’t like must be due to being away from the Father’s table when in fact it might just be due to your faithfulness in another area [like rejoicing that you are counted worthy to suffer for the Name!] or due to a reaping of past sin and its corruption. Your blanket generalizations are worthless, your sweeping dogmas unrealistic.

For example, Paul swimming in the sea after the ship wrecked didn’t know where he would end up, he simply trusted God. Neither did he know why the snake bit him, but he simply shook it off and went on trusting God. Jesus prayed that God’s will be done but in his humanness wanted the cup to pass from him. But t was not God’s will that it do so.

You.
Again, the prayer attempts to define the will of God by resulting experience, rather than by the Word of God. Here the "general faith" theorist attempts to define the will and therefore the nature of God by the fruit of his own faith(or doubt). "I did not receive, therefore it is not God's will for me to have it." Again, this assumes the belief and the integrity of the man, rather than the goodness and integrity of God.

Oddly, the proponents of this thought claim that they are honoring the power and glory of God. In reality, they are declaring the infallibility of their own "belief" and "reason" at the expense of the declared goodness and mercy of God.

Me.
You assume that the goodness and integrity of God is wrapped up in what you would rather have, and not in what you are getting. And why? Because you assume God wants to give you what you want. But parents don’t give their children whatever the child thinks is right. You show a spiritual pride and arrogance in your assumptions of what God wants for His children. Which apostle died rich? Which one didn’t suffer? Which one lived a life of ease? God calls us all to serve Him, both the rich and the poor and He doesn’t promise worldly riches or physical health, but rather says “as they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.”

Sometimes overcoming the world means living through the pain and suffering our sins and others cause us with a vibrant faith and a living hope, looking NOT to this world but the next. Sometimes it is others seeing us live with confidence in God despite the trial that wins their hearts to God. Where have you been my friend?

More later on the dual spirit comments and how Hobie believes we are dual souled but not dual spirited! Not that I agree or disagree, but I think he misses the point of those he objects to,

In Jesus,
mike

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There are more Christians living south of the equator in dirt poor countries, than up here in our 'rich' USA and in Europe combined.

This is true... but there is no correlation between where someone lives, the number of saved people who live there, the prosperity level in that place, and the Will of God. These external "walk by sight"  evidences really tell us nothing about what the will of God is for them or us. The will of God for them is still the same regardless of where they live or the poverty level in that place. If they receive the Word of God and believe it, they will receive. The Word does not change because of where it is preached.

Second, all living-on-this-earth Christians are dying, 100% of them. But they are not dying due to lack of faith, but due to the consequences of sin, from Adam on down to their own.

But they do not have to die young. They are redeemed from the curse of the law just as all believers are. We have been released from sin and the consequences of sin. Death (as a result of old age) is the last enemy to be conquered. If it is the last enemy to be conqured, then all other enemies have already been conquered... including sickness.

1Co 15:
25  For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26  The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

It is not logical to assume that because people die therefore it is the will of God that men die young and from sickness.

 Your theology is slanted and that bias reflects itself in posts like your last one. You simply seem to miss out on the vast realities of life.

Since you do not know me you really cannot say what my realities of life are. I am 48 years old, have been a Christian for over 30 years, have been married 28 years, have 4 children and grandchildren, and served in the military. I graduated college summa cum laud, and am a successful systems analyst for the state of South Carolina. So I do have a little knowledge about life. Having said all that let me affirm that the realities of my life or yours do not overrule the realities of God's Word. If He says we were healed by the stripes of Jesus, then I will agree with Him rather than call Him a liar. If I were to contact some sickness that leads to death (I doubt that I will, but if I did,then)... His word is still true, and I pray I remain faithful to Him by confessing His word rather than taking sides with the world against Him. To remain faithful to God means to remain faithful to what He has said, even in the face of contradictory evidence and logic. Consider Abraham:

Rom 4:
19  And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
20  yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God,
21  and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

He believed God more than the things that appeared to be true. He believed that the thing that did not exist existed:

4:17  (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.

It is not "faith" to: be sick and empoverished,  assume that it is the will of God, and then consider yourself to be "faithful" because you walk by sight and accept the situation. That is resignation. You do not have to be faithful, or even a believer to do that. Jesus never used such reasoning in His ministry. If Abraham had done that what would the results have been? Not good!

I will post it soon, today I hope.

Thanks! I look forward to it!

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Hobie,
You said
quote:
There are more Christians living south of the equator in dirt poor countries, than up here in our 'rich' USA and in Europe combined.


This is true... but there is no correlation between where someone lives, the number of saved people who live there, the prosperity level in that place, and the Will of God. These external "walk by sight" evidences really tell us nothing about what the will of God is for them or us. The will of God for them is still the same regardless of where they live or the poverty level in that place. If they receive the Word of God and believe it, they will receive. The Word does not change because of where it is preached.

Me.
You falsely accuse me of walking by sight. It is not me Hob, but you that walk by sight. The receiving you speak of are sighted things, not spiritual things. The will of God varies for each child relative to their need and His plan. What will they receive? Prosperity? Long life?

What worldly sight thing will they receive?


Hobie.

quote:
Second, all living-on-this-earth Christians are dying, 100% of them. But they are not dying due to lack of faith, but due to the consequences of sin, from Adam on down to their own.


But they do not have to die young. They are redeemed from the curse of the law just as all believers are. We have been released from sin and the consequences of sin. Death (as a result of old age) is the last enemy to be conquered. If it is the last enemy to be conqured, then all other enemies have already been conquered... including sickness.

1Co 15:
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

It is not logical to assume that because people die therefore it is the will of God that men die young and from sickness.

Me.
Death is a result of the corruption of sin. It is not illogical to assume that some die young and it still be the will of God. Your philosophy places too much emphasis on this world, but Jesus died young. Is it possible the thief on the cross was young? Could of he had enough faith not to die then?

Hobie

quote:
Your theology is slanted and that bias reflects itself in posts like your last one. You simply seem to miss out on the vast realities of life.


Since you do not know me you really cannot say what my realities of life are. I am 48 years old, have been a Christian for over 30 years, have been married 28 years, have 4 children and grandchildren, and served in the military. I graduated college summa cum laud, and am a successful systems analyst for the state of South Carolina. So I do have a little knowledge about life.

Me.
I wasn’t saying you were completely devoid about reality Hobie. Im sorry if it seemed like that.
What I meant, and maybe couldve said better was that your doctrine doesn’t match life properly.
Hobie continued. [I[
Having said all that let me affirm that the realities of my life or yours do not overrule the realities of God's Word. If He says we were healed by the stripes of Jesus, then I will agree with Him rather than call Him a liar. If I were to contact some sickness that leads to death (I doubt that I will, but if I did,then)... His word is still true, and I pray I remain faithful to Him by confessing His word rather than taking sides with the world against Him. To remain faithful to God means to remain faithful to what He has said, even in the face of contradictory evidence and logic. [/I]

Me.
Reality is another word for truth. Sometimes what seems as reality to us is not. So a true reality of life will always agree with the Word since Jesus is both Word and Truth.

But if the verse from Isaiah 53 means we are healed spiritually by His stripes and you think it means physically, then you do err from the Word. False confession of the Word is to no benefit. So I agree that we remain faithful to what the Word of God says, but I disagree with your interp, which is why I am here

Hobie continues.
Consider Abraham:

Rom 4:
19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

He believed God more than the things that appeared to be true. He believed that the thing that did not exist existed:

Me.
He believed them because he had a word from God. He had a reason to believe that others did not have. But to generalize a doctrine is NOT a word from God, it is simply your generalization.

Hobie.
It is not "faith" to: be sick and empoverished, assume that it is the will of God, and then consider yourself to be "faithful" because you walk by sight and accept the situation. That is resignation. You do not have to be faithful, or even a believer to do that. Jesus never used such reasoning in His ministry. If Abraham had done that what would the results have been? Not good!

Me.
First, Abraham wasn’t impoverished or sick, so you misapply these verses to your conclusion.

Second, you said that not all sickness is from sin, sometimes a cold is just a cold. Maybe sometimes a cancer is just a cancer. Your reasoning is self-driven applying your doctrine to the Word instead of deriving your doctrine from the Word.

Third, sometimes sickness is due to our own sins, but there is no guarantee that every sickness will result in health no matter how much faith you have. If there is such a guarantee in the Word, you have not shown it.

Fourth, Paul was impoverished at times, and such was to the furtherance of the gospel. Your blanket statement shows the bankruptcy of your position. A loving Father uses the things of this world to discipline His children so they will turn and repent. Therefore it might be God’s will that one be sick [since their sin caused their sickness], so that they might turn from that sin and back to God.

Sometimes people are sick for the glory of God, so He can heal them. Sometimes we are impoverished so we can walk in newness of life despite our poor circumstances, living by dependence on God and not on worldly ways and therefore be a witness of God’s overcoming power.

In Jesus,
mike

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hey Mike, 

 

Just a quick note of appreciation for your respectfull response to Hobie. 

I believe there is more balance there than can adequately or fully be conveyed on paper. From my own experience I know that sometimes it's difficult to bring about a particular point and not come across as against another.

Hobie,

 

I have been working so much overtime that I have not been able yet to get through all you've written.  I like to read and chew and seek God and His Word on the issues before I conclude anything.  But praise God for the overtime.  I've asked Him to meet my needs and He's faithful.

Mostly I want to incourage you and say I do understand what is coming out of your heart and agree.  Just like everyone we come in contact with we must listen with the heart of God, not the heart of our flesh.  I know that's how I want people to treat me so I show the same respect to them.  That's what Jesus said to do, "love your neighbor as you love yourself".

Thanks for taking the time and energy to help people understand an extremely controversial subject.  I don't really understand why it's controversial but it is. 

Others,

Let me tell you a little about myself as well . . .I'm 48 years old. I've known the Lord since I was a child (around 3 or 4 years old) and while I have made a few bad decisions I have never backslid. 

I grew up in the church but I did not grow up in a christian home.  We did go to church regularly but violence frequented our home.  My mother was quite abusive to me.  Unfortionately for my brother and sister I left home at the age of 18. Once I left she started on them.  My father left soon after that too.

God has brought me through a lot of garbage.  It was His grace that brought me through.  It was His mercy that healed me from the emotional gashes in my soul and my spirit.  It was His grace and mercy that not just brought me through, but made me the victor and not the victom.

I come in contact with people everyday who are still trapped in the pain of abuse, Time period anywhere from yesterday to 50 years ago.  I am living proof that it does not have to hang on forever.  Jesus heals.  He heals my spirit, He heals my mind, He heals my body. 

I took God at His Word, I belived Him.  He did not fail me. 

Yes, there were and are difficult times.  He builds my faith and works mercy in me towards others through those times.  I do not see life as "pleasantville".  I do however see it as full of God who bestows on man every good gift.  If I had never received His mercy, I could never, ever have mercy on others?  I understand fully the agony people go through.  But thank God, through Jesus Christ there is deliverence. 

I'm not saying it happens in an instant.  But it can. I know it does not have to take a century.  I know that I do not have to make everyone around me misrable because of my pain.  Jesus took it all.

I'm not saying I never get down, but the only time I do is when I get my eyes off of Him and on to myself.  My bills, my sicknesses, my pain, my thoughts, my self.

Ps 91:1 says "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty."  That's His promise and I believe it.  As long as my eyes are on Him, I'm not swayed by what is happening to or around me.  That's HIS promise.

God is faithful to fulfill all His promises.

 

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I hope to ask you some questions and point out some things so you can respond to those who doubt you. In many places, I might even agree with your conclusion, or at least think it possible, but I can’t honestly ‘get’ to it from your premises. There seems to be a bit of ‘sloppy’ logic involved, as I hope to point out.

It only appears that way because you are proceeding from a different foundation than I am. I am proceeding from the absolute that God always wants us healed, always wants us saved, and always wants us to be prosperous. IOWs I believe that God "is" and that "He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." I proceed from the idea that God is a Father who will "add all these things unto you" if you seek. I believe that He always gives good gifts, does not use the devil's methods to accomplish His will, and always gives the expected thing.

I believe that Jesus is the absolute and exact image of the Father. We can see the will of God in the life and ministry of Jesus. If Jesus did it then that was the will of the Father. If He did not do it, then it was because it is not the way the Father does things. In the end, when we wonder what the will of God is, we look at Jesus, the words of Jesus, and the deeds of Jesus.

John 1:8
(WNT) No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom--He has made Him known.

There is only one way to know the Father, His will, and His power, and that is to look at Jesus. Not Job, not Paul, not Timoty or any living man or circumstance. Jesus has shown us the Father. All esle is vague and mere shadow.

Joh 14:
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.

If you use any other image of the Father, you will not be seeing Him as He is. We need to strive to use the Jesus image. If we all use the same image... we will all come into agreement. If we all use different yardsticks we will never agree.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Excuse me, but what do the letter IOW stand for? I'm sure the answer is in here somewhere but I've missed it.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Hobie,

You said:
It only appears that way because you are proceeding from a different foundation than I am. I am proceeding from the absolute that God always wants us healed, always wants us saved, and always wants us to be prosperous. IOWs I believe that God "is" and that "He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." I proceed from the idea that God is a Father who will "add all these things unto you" if you seek. I believe that He always gives good gifts, does not use the devil's methods to accomplish His will, and always gives the expected thing.

My response.
Does God want sin? Yet there it is. Do you always want to go to work? But some days you do it when you don’t want to. I think what God wants for His children is a less material then things of this world, like health and prosperity. God used the evil of Joseph’s brothers to move His plan along. God used the evil schemes of the devil to teach Job a lesson. So your god is incomplete Hobie. You don’t want to think it would be His will that some might be given over to Satan and their body destroyed so that in the end they might find Him. It seems to me, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you value worldly things too much. It seems to me that your eyes see material blessings instead of looking unto that city of God.

The people of God have gone destitute, persecuted, mistreated for their faith. Yet still you do not address the hard and painful discipline the Word says a loving Father brings to His children. You have a false image of God and your philosophy is distorted because of it.

Hobie
I believe that Jesus is the absolute and exact image of the Father. We can see the will of God in the life and ministry of Jesus. If Jesus did it then that was the will of the Father. If He did not do it, then it was because it is not the way the Father does things. In the end, when we wonder what the will of God is, we look at Jesus, the words of Jesus, and the deeds of Jesus.

There is only one way to know the Father, His will, and His power, and that is to look at Jesus. Not Job, not Paul, not Timoty or any living man or circumstance. Jesus has shown us the Father. All esle is vague and mere shadow.

Me.
So what do you do Hobie when Paul disagrees with your image of Jesus, throw out the parts of the Bible you don’t like? Did God change from the Old T. where He brought death and trouble to His own people? By faith you say, no one should die young, but Jesus died young.

Hobie
If you use any other image of the Father, you will not be seeing Him as He is. We need to strive to use the Jesus image. If we all use the same image... we will all come into agreement. If we all use different yardsticks we will never agree.

Me.
Hobie I believe in the Bible as God’s Word. I don’t throw out the parts I don’t like, or just use the parts I do like. When you use the wrong image of the Father, you fail to see Him or reality as it really is. So I am challenging your ‘yardstick’. But you are ducking my requests. I asked you about the hard and painful discipline God uses on His children, but you do not reply.

God is not interested in seeing His children grow in this world’s things, but rather, he is interested in teaching them about His love in whatever situation they find themselves in. He is teaching us to trust Him and not the comforts of this world, whether it be health, or prosperity or trouble-free lives. You only have a partial view of the Father Hobie.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Quaffer,

IOW means In Other Words

you said,

Just a quick note of appreciation for your respectfull response to Hobie.

I believe there is more balance there than can adequately or fully be conveyed on paper. From my own experience I know that sometimes it's difficult to bring about a particular point and not come across as against another.


Well that is why you can post an answer. Hobie has had several posts to answer me, and he might yet. Until then, I agree with you, he seems unbalanced. (-:

Maybe you can explain what he is missing? If so, please do.