20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[ShineyDays2]

You like to quote someone out of context? Come to think of it, this is not the first time you are doing this.

This is another example of dodging of what you don't seem to have support for in regards to the claims you made.

 

[Guojing]

Would you please focus only on these and reply to my disagreement with them? If you don't have scripture to support those two statements then why did you make such statements?

Already did. I can explain to you but I cannot understand it for you.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

 

[ShineyDays2]

Already did.

Oh, I must have missed those verses that you used for these two claims...

1) A gentile in the OT, even if he were to sacrifice animals, his sins are still not covered/forgiven.
2)In the OT, without joining Israel, he can sacrifice all the animals he want and he is still going to hell.​

Could you post them for me because I could not find them.

Guojing, I have no idea how you can "explain" and yet can't "understand it" ??

 

[jgr]

My point in that post you replied to was that, after the nation of Israel came about in Exodus, under the old covenant of Law, a gentile is cut off from God if he does not join the nation of Israel.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

You objected to my point by pointing out that was not true before Israel existed, by going all the way back to Genesis.

If that is your argument, you are not disagreeing with the point I made. You are not starting from the same premise I started with.

Israelites, both Jews and Gentiles, were cut off when they rebelled and apostasized into unfaithfulness and disobedience. God slew them by the thousands.

You still haven't explained how the Ninevites were saved without joining Israel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

My point in that post you replied to was that, after the nation of Israel came about in Exodus, under the old covenant of Law, a gentile is cut off from God if he does not join the nation of Israel.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

You objected to my point by pointing out that was not true before Israel existed, by going all the way back to Genesis.

If that is your argument, you are not disagreeing with the point I made. You are not starting from the same premise I started with.

So, did Nineveh join the nation of Israel?
Did the Queen of Sheba join the nation of Israel?
Did Naaman join the nation of Israel?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So Romans to Philemon is the word of truth for the Body of Christ.

Your error is to apply that for the nation Israel as well. Their truth is not found in Romans to Philemon, but found in the other books.

Tell me, who do you think John 3:16-18 applies to?

What is a Jew required to do in order to be saved that's different from what a Gentile is required to in order to be saved? Be specific.

Lastly, why are you avoiding answering the questions regarding the people of Nineveh in Jonah's day? We know they repented of their sins, but do you think they were still condemned since they were not citizens of Israel?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Tell me, who do you think John 3:16-18 applies to?

What is a Jew required to do in order to be saved that's different from what a Gentile is required to be saved? Be specific.

Lastly, why are you avoiding answering the questions regarding the people of Nineveh in Jonah's day? We know they repented of their sins, but do you think they were still condemned since they were not citizens of Israel?

There is not a more familiar passage in the New Testament for evangelicals than John chapter 3. In it, “a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews” came searching for spiritual guidance to Jesus. Now, we should note, this man couldn’t have had better natural or religious credentials in the light of the Dispensationalist position. Not only was he of Israeli stock, but he also was a leader of the Pharisees. Jesus told him in John 3:5-11, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”

Why did Nicodemus need to be born again, if, according to Guojing, he was automatically a chosen child of God through natural birth? The Lord was showing Nicodemus (and us) that favor with God (before or after the cross or Pentecost) did not (or does not) come through one’s DNA, an accident of birth or through fulfilling a religious A-Z but rather through a spiritual birth. It involves a spiritual encounter with Christ! Racial status or biological pedigree means nothing with God today.

Whilst Nicodemus had all the natural and religious qualifications a man could ever want, Jesus showed him that that was not enough. The Lord showed him that he needed a spiritual conversion in order to make it to heaven. He showed Nicodemus that his first birth – his natural birth (that of water), was insufficient to inherit the kingdom of God. His physical birth, like the rest of fallen man, was contaminated by the awful blight of sin.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There is not a more familiar passage in the New Testament for evangelicals than John chapter 3. In it, “a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews” came searching for spiritual guidance to Jesus. Now, we should note, this man couldn’t have had better natural or religious credentials in the light of the Dispensationalist position. Not only was he of Israeli stock, but he also was a leader of the Pharisees. Jesus told him in John 3:5-11, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”

Why did Nicodemus need to be born again, if, according to Guojing, he was automatically a chosen child of God through natural birth? The Lord was showing Nicodemus (and us) that favor with God (before or after the cross or Pentecost) did not (or does not) come through one’s religious standing, an accident of birth or through fulfilling a religious A-Z but rather through a spiritual birth. It involves a spiritual encounter with Christ! Racial status or biological pedigree means nothing with God today.

Whilst Nicodemus had all the natural and religious qualifications a man could ever want, Jesus showed him that that was not enough. The Lord showed him that he needed a spiritual conversion in order to make it to heaven. He showed Nicodemus that his first birth – his natural birth (that of water), was insufficient to inherit the kingdom of God. His physical birth, like the rest of fallen man, was contaminated by the awful blight of sin.

Exactly. Well said. People like Guojing just don't get it. He doesn't even understand why Jesus sacrificed Himself. Jesus did the work necessary to provide salvation because no one can do that for themselves.

There are no works of the law or works of any kind that anyone can do to be saved. If it was possible to be saved by performing the works of the law or by performing righteous acts/works then why does anyone need Jesus? Of course, it's not possible to keep the law because violating any of the law even once makes you guilty of violating all of it (James 2:10). Only Jesus can live up to that standard of keeping the law perfectly.

People like Guojing don't understand what passages like this mean:

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

This passage couldn't be more clear. Salvation cannot be attained by keeping the works of the law. It is impossible. The religious people of Israel tried that and failed. Yet people like Guojing think that's a requirement for Jews to be saved. That's an impossible requirement. As Paul said, Israel "sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law" and he clearly indicated that they were wrong for doing that. So, why do people like Guojing think they were right for trying to obtain salvation by keeping the law?

Guojing's perspective is no different than a lost Jew who thinks he or she can be saved by somehow being good enough and somehow keeping the works of the law even though that is impossible (James 2:10, Romans 3:28). Scripture is clear that faith in Christ is required for salvation for everyone, including Jews and Gentiles, and not righteous works or keeping the works of the law.

 

[Christian Gedge]

This passage couldn't be more clear. Salvation cannot be attained by keeping the works of the law. It is impossible. The religious people of Israel tried that and failed.

At the moment Im studying some of the better kings of Judah. Asa and Joash were described as 'good' yet their ends were so disappointing. It is discouraging reading about those great leaders because their inner natures were only as good as their best efforts. They were not born again!

How much better it is under the New Covenant where Jew and Gentile together can receive new life through Jesus!

 

[Guojing]

Tell me, who do you think John 3:16-18 applies to?

What is a Jew required to do in order to be saved that's different from what a Gentile is required to in order to be saved? Be specific.

Lastly, why are you avoiding answering the questions regarding the people of Nineveh in Jonah's day? We know they repented of their sins, but do you think they were still condemned since they were not citizens of Israel?

I already did in the previous exchange I had with you in this thread.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

As for the people of Nineveh, they did repent of their sins once, but there is no verse that states they were saved after that. People like to assume that repent once means salvation, but that was not true in time past.

In fact Nahum 1 stated that they were judged by God after that incident with Jonah.

 

[Guojing]

So, did Nineveh join the nation of Israel?
Did the Queen of Sheba join the nation of Israel?
Did Naaman join the nation of Israel?

The people of Nineveh did repent of their sins once, but there is no verse that states they were saved after that. People like to assume that repent once means salvation, but that was not true in time past.

In fact Nahum 1 stated that they were judged by God after that incident with Jonah.

 

[Guojing]

Exactly. Well said. People like Guojing just don't get it. He doesn't even understand why Jesus sacrificed Himself. Jesus did the work necessary to provide salvation because no one can do that for themselves.

There are no works of the law or works of any kind that anyone can do to be saved. If it was possible to be saved by performing the works of the law or by performing righteous acts/works then why does anyone need Jesus? Of course, it's not possible to keep the law because violating any of the law even once makes you guilty of violating all of it (James 2:10). Only Jesus can live up to that standard of keeping the law perfectly.

People like Guojing don't understand what passages like this mean:

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

This passage couldn't be more clear. Salvation cannot be attained by keeping the works of the law. It is impossible. The religious people of Israel tried that and failed. Yet people like Guojing think that's a requirement for Jews to be saved. That's an impossible requirement. As Paul said, Israel "sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law" and he clearly indicated that they were wrong for doing that. So, why do people like Guojing think they were right for trying to obtain salvation by keeping the law?

Guojing's perspective is no different than a lost Jew who thinks he or she can be saved by somehow being good enough and somehow keeping the works of the law even though that is impossible (James 2:10, Romans 3:28). Scripture is clear that faith in Christ is required for salvation for everyone, including Jews and Gentiles, and not righteous works or keeping the works of the law.

When one does not rightly divide the word of truth, they tend to anticipate revelation and assume that what was revealed to Paul after the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11), is truth known even during the time before the cross.

 

[Guojing]

There is not a more familiar passage in the New Testament for evangelicals than John chapter 3. In it, “a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews” came searching for spiritual guidance to Jesus. Now, we should note, this man couldn’t have had better natural or religious credentials in the light of the Dispensationalist position. Not only was he of Israeli stock, but he also was a leader of the Pharisees. Jesus told him in John 3:5-11, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”

Why did Nicodemus need to be born again, if, according to Guojing, he was automatically a chosen child of God through natural birth? The Lord was showing Nicodemus (and us) that favor with God (before or after the cross or Pentecost) did not (or does not) come through one’s DNA, an accident of birth or through fulfilling a religious A-Z but rather through a spiritual birth. It involves a spiritual encounter with Christ! Racial status or biological pedigree means nothing with God today.

Whilst Nicodemus had all the natural and religious qualifications a man could ever want, Jesus showed him that that was not enough. The Lord showed him that he needed a spiritual conversion in order to make it to heaven. He showed Nicodemus that his first birth – his natural birth (that of water), was insufficient to inherit the kingdom of God. His physical birth, like the rest of fallen man, was contaminated by the awful blight of sin.

You can understand John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Issac.

Thru Issac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

This was reinforced in Jeremiah 31:9

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets (e.g. 2 Chronicles 24:20-22; Jeremiah 26:20-30; cf. Luke 13:34; Acts 7:52)., and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.


If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.

 

[Guojing]

Oh, I must have missed those verses that you used for these two claims...

1) A gentile in the OT, even if he were to sacrifice animals, his sins are still not covered/forgiven.
2)In the OT, without joining Israel, he can sacrifice all the animals he want and he is still going to hell.​

Could you post them for me because I could not find them.

Guojing, I have no idea how you can "explain" and yet can't "understand it" ??

Ephesians 2:11-12

You remove that scripture from my original reply to SG, and then claimed there was no scripture, a mischievous act of yours but you have done this before too.

 

[Guojing]

Israelites, both Jews and Gentiles, were cut off when they rebelled and apostasized into unfaithfulness and disobedience. God slew them by the thousands.

You still haven't explained how the Ninevites were saved without joining Israel.

Why don't you first provide scripture that actually states that "the Ninevites were saved"?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I already did in the previous exchange I had with you in this thread.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

As for the people of Nineveh, they did repent of their sins once, but there is no verse that states they were saved after that. People like to assume that repent once means salvation, but that was not true in time past.

In fact Nahum 1 stated that they were judged by God after that incident with Jonah.

For info: salvation has always been by grace through faith. Saving faith involves repentance. This produces eternal life. So they are amongst the redeemed. They are God's chosen people in the OT. This shows the error of Dispensationalism.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You can understand John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Issac.

Thru Issac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

This was reinforced in Jeremiah 31:9

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets (e.g. 2 Chronicles 24:20-22; Jeremiah 26:20-30; cf. Luke 13:34; Acts 7:52)., and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.


If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.

Salvation has always been personal. Men are either saved or lost. Man has always been saved by grace through faith.

 

[Guojing]

Salvation has always been personal. Men are either saved or lost. Man has always been saved by grace through faith.

Are you a covenant theologian?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Are you a covenant theologian?

I am a Bible believing Christian.

 

[Guojing]

I am a Bible believing Christian.

You can believe the Bible thru the lens of covenant theology.

When you say salvation has always been personal, you are rejecting Israel's special relationship with God as the chosen nation in time past, as well as in the age to come.

That is the one of the defining features of covenant theology. Reformed Theology Is Covenant Theology by Richard Pratt Jr.

At least three issues often move to the foreground: works and grace, corporate and individual faith, and earthly and spiritual concerns. First, many evangelicals believe that the Old Testament’s emphasis on good works is incompatible with salvation by grace through faith in Christ. Second, Israel’s corporate relationship with God as a community appears to have been replaced by a focus on the individuals’ personal relationships with God. Third, many evangelicals believe that the Old Testament call to establish an earthly kingdom for God stands in contrast with the New Testament emphasis on a spiritual kingdom in Christ.