20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[ShineyDays2]

If that is what you are saying, that they know that a Messiah would come to Israel to save them, I can agree with that, that is precisely the message of the gospel of the Kingdom (John 20:31).

Not exactly! Because you said "...that they know that a Messiah would come to Israel to save them,...."My questions to you are;...

1- Save them from what?
2- Save the Israeli people from their sins?
3- or, national Israel with a new temple?​

And then you said..."a Messiah would come to Israel to save them," I believe only that the Messiah came to bring salvation to all who believed the gospel of salvation; not just for Israel!

John 20:31 says nothing about "the gospel of a[literal] kingdom" if that is what you intended to try and get across. It says "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name."

Matthew is the only gospel that uses the term "gospel of the kingdom" because of his mission to the Jews as prophesied. Mark used the term "kingdom of God."

Mat 4:23 - And he went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every infirmity among the people.
Mat 9:35 - And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every infirmity.
Mat 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.
Mar 1:15 - and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."​

What Christ did on the cross:

Col 1:15-20 - He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.​

1Co 15:1-4 - Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,​

The Gospel of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 has five parts:

1 Christ died
2. For our sins
3. Was buried
4. Rose Again
5. According to the Scriptures
6. I would add..."and was seen by many"​

The Bible clearly presents the Gospel of salvation in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel of the kingdom is the gospel of God's rule in from heaven and on earth through the church - not a literal kingdom in Israel with sacrifices being reinstated.

In the Old Testament, God accepted the blood of a lamb. In the New Testament, God accepts the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the LAMB OF GOD, slain for our sins.

This is absolute Bible truth!

 

[Guojing]

Not exactly! Because you said "...that they know that a Messiah would come to Israel to save them,...."My questions to you are;...

1- Save them from what?
2- Save the Israeli people from their sins?
3- or, national Israel with a new temple?​

And then you said..."a Messiah would come to Israel to save them," I believe only that the Messiah came to bring salvation to all who believed the gospel of salvation; not just for Israel!

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Other references include Luke 1:68-75

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

And of course, the perpetual favorite Matthew 15:24.

Again learn not to anticipate revelation, 1 Cor 15:1-4 was not known to the OT prophets, nor anyone else, until Paul.

It was only after the mystery revealed to Paul, then we understand that the cross is for the sins of the entire world.

 

[ShineyDays2]

Again learn not to anticipate revelation,

"anticipating revelation" is a term you made up.

then we understand that the cross is for the sins of the entire world.

1Pe 2:9,10 - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were no people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.
_________________________
Do you agree or not with...."The gospel of the kingdom is the gospel of God's rule in from heaven and on earth through the church - not a literal kingdom in Israel with sacrifices being reinstated."

"In the Old Testament, God accepted the blood of a lamb. In the New Testament, God accepts the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the LAMB OF GOD, slain for our sins."

 

[Guojing]

"anticipating revelation" is a term you made up.

You don't understand what I stated to you here?

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

 

[ShineyDays2]

Nobody can honestly understand EVERYTHING in the NT anymore than those in the OT understood everything. Evidently you think you do so please explain these below - PERFECTLY.

When you can explain with complete and perfect understanding from the list below I will be impressed! I don't understand any of them to perfection but I do believe that God is truthful and just and that his greatest miracle of all time is still in the future. I truthfully cannot understand just how He is going to raise all the dead at one time in one day any more than you can....but I do look forward to that Day with TRUST.

Genesis 1:3-31 - The entire 7 days of creation.
Genesis 2:18-23 - The creation of Eve.
Genesis 3:1 - A serpent that can talk.
Revelation 13:13 - And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people.
Revelation 21:2 - I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

My post #4022 was about faith and trust in God's Word and how no one can completely understand those miraculous events in the future any more than one can claim to understand those verses in Genesis either, but you chose to ignore those and focused instead on something trivial instead of what I actually believe which is "looking forward to the future promises of God through faith." (my term)
_______________________________________________________________________________
You also avoided this:

If that is what you are saying, that they know that a Messiah would come to Israel to save them, I can agree with that, that is precisely the message of the gospel of the Kingdom (John 20:31).

Not exactly! Because you said "...that they know that a Messiah would come to Israel to save them,...."My questions to you are;...
1- Save them from what?
2- Save the Israeli people from their sins?
3- or, national Israel with a new temple?
4- or, ALL people Jew and Gentiles - "the Israel of God?" (newly added today)

And then you said..."a Messiah would come to Israel to save them." I believe only that the Messiah came to bring salvation to all who believed the gospel of salvation; not just for Israel!

John 20:31 says nothing about "the gospel of a[literal] kingdom[with a rebuilt temple]" if that is what you intended to try and get across. What it really says is this...."but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name."

 

[ShineyDays2]

...can you see how silly for them to think like that?

I saw it but thought it was too "silly' to respond to your scenario when scripture has revealed a sufficient enough information for us to walk by faith without giving every detail of when and exactly how God preformed those impossible miraculous events even in the past let alone those in the future to us finite humans. To do so would mean that we were no longer walking by faith.

 

[Guojing]

You also avoided this:

Not exactly! Because you said "...that they know that a Messiah would come to Israel to save them,...."My questions to you are;...
1- Save them from what?
2- Save the Israeli people from their sins?
3- or, national Israel with a new temple?
4- or, ALL people Jew and Gentiles - "the Israel of God?" (newly added today)

And then you said..."a Messiah would come to Israel to save them." I believe only that the Messiah came to bring salvation to all who believed the gospel of salvation; not just for Israel!

John 20:31 says nothing about "the gospel of a[literal] kingdom[with a rebuilt temple]" if that is what you intended to try and get across. What it really says is this...."but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name."

I replied to your questions with this 20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

You choose not to quote my full reply, and ignored those points that answered your questions.

If you are unclear about the points I have made, feel free to ask questions.

 

[Guojing]

I saw it but thought it was too "silly' to respond to your scenario when scripture has revealed a sufficient enough information for us to walk by faith without giving every detail of when and exactly how God preformed those impossible miraculous events even in the past let alone those in the future to us finite humans. To do so would mean that we were no longer walking by faith.

If you don't understand, or don't want to understand that scenario, and don't wish to ask questions, that is beyond my control.

But there is no need to claim that I made that term up, when an attempt was made to help you to understand what that term means.

 

[Guojing]

1Pe 2:9,10 - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were no people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.
_________________________

Peter was addressing the Jews scattered abroad in his letters (1 Peter 1:1). He was reminding the nation of Israel what God already said to Israel in Exodus 19:5-6.

Gentiles do not belong to any specific nation that is born of God so it makes no sense to describe gentile believers are scattered. God never calls us a "holy nation" for the same reason.

Peter would also not be writing a letter to gentile believers, after the agreement he made with Paul, together with James and John, in Galatians 2:9

Anyway, 1 Peter was written after Paul had written most of his letters, so using that letter does not contradict what I said about the cross saving everyone's sins was a mystery to the OT prophets until Paul.

 

[Marilyn C]

Peter was addressing the Jews scattered abroad in his letters (1 Peter 1:1). He was reminding the nation of Israel what God already said to Israel in Exodus 19:5-6.

Gentiles do not belong to any specific nation that is born of God so it makes no sense to describe gentile believers are scattered. God never calls us a "holy nation" for the same reason.

Peter would also not be writing a letter to gentile believers, after the agreement he made with Paul, together with James and John, in Galatians 2:9

Anyway, 1 Peter was written after Paul had written most of his letters, so using that letter does not contradict what I said about the cross saving everyone's sins was a mystery to the OT prophets until Paul.

Hi Guojing,

Just because Peter is not of the Body of Christ does not mean that the Holy Spirit cannot speak through him to the believers in the Body. Note this concerning a `royal priesthood.`

`But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.` (1 Peter 2: 9)

Jews never hold those two offices - king and priest, royal priesthood. Only the Body of Christ has been given those two offices together.

As to `holy nation,` that refers to ethnic, which is of Christ. We are a new creation in Him. a new race, nation, ethnic group, not of this world as we are called out of Israel and called out of the nations of this world. Our citizenship is in heaven.

Marilyn.

 

[Guojing]

Hi Guojing,

Just because Peter is not of the Body of Christ does not mean that the Holy Spirit cannot speak through him to the believers in the Body. Note this concerning a `royal priesthood.`

`But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.` (1 Peter 2: 9)

Jews never hold those two offices - king and priest, royal priesthood. Only the Body of Christ has been given those two offices together.

As to `holy nation,` that refers to ethnic, which is of Christ. We are a new creation in Him. a new race, nation, ethnic group, not of this world as we are called out of Israel and called out of the nations of this world. Our citizenship is in heaven.

Marilyn.

As with all scripture, we can learn from them as they are all written for our learning, but we are taught to rightly divide the word of truth, not all scripture is written TO us or ABOUT us.

I do understand the role of priests that the entire nation Israel will play during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Zechariah 8, especially the final verse, indicated that all Jews from the nation Israel will serve, as priests to bring unbelieving gentiles into the Holy Mountain of Jerusalem to seek and entreat the Lord.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Do you think Paul ever call us "priests" in his letters to the Body of Christ?

I think the reason he does not is because the Body of Christ's destiny during that 1000 years is in the heavens (Ephesians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 6:3), not on the Earth.

 

[Marilyn C]

As with all scripture, we can learn from them as they are all written for our learning, but we are taught to rightly divide the word of truth, not all scripture is written TO us or ABOUT us.

I do understand the role of priests that the entire nation Israel will play during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Zechariah 8, especially the final verse, indicated that all Jews from the nation Israel will serve, as priests to bring unbelieving gentiles into the Holy Mountain of Jerusalem to seek and entreat the Lord.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Do you think Paul ever call us "priests" in his letters to the Body of Christ?

I think the reason he does not is because the Body of Christ's destiny during that 1000 years is in the heavens (Ephesians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 6:3), not on the Earth.

Hi Guojing,

I so agree that God`s word is NOT all about us, but for us to read and learn from. Actually we would agree that Christ is the center. Too many people read scripture as all about US. Leads to great error.

I also agree that the Body of Christ will be in heaven and not on the earth, ruling with the Lord.
And that Israel was promised to be a nation of priests. Then the Lord says that a man called David will rule as regent King in Israel in the millennium. (Ez. 37: 24)

Now Paul does mention `reigning.`

`You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us - and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you.` (1 Cor. 4: 8)

We see that although Paul is exposing the Corinthians lack, there is a truth in there.

Then we read in Timothy`s letter -

`If we endure we shall also reign with Him,` (2 Tim. 2: 12)

Timothy as we know is a disciple of Paul`s and also an Apostle. Thus he is given revelation to the Body of Christ. Further revelation was given to the apostle John concerning the Body of Christ, even though he himself is not in it, but will rule, (as you know) over the 12 tribes of Israel.

Good to discuss such details.

Marilyn.

 

[Guojing]

Hi Guojing,

Further revelation was given to the apostle John concerning the Body of Christ, even though he himself is not in it, but will rule, (as you know) over the 12 tribes of Israel.

Good to discuss such details.

Marilyn.

Interesting, which part of John's writing do you think was directed to us in the Body of Christ?

 

[Marilyn C]

Interesting, which part of John's writing do you think was directed to us in the Body of Christ?

Hi Guojing,

John and the other 11 disciples were told to witness of Jesus, His life, death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 1: 21 & 22) They proclaimed that Jesus is the Lord and Christ. (Acts 3: 36)

Now John`s epistles and letter -

1. A general epistle, not addressed to a church or individual, but to all the children of God. Its object is that believers may know that they have eternal life, (5: 13) that `their joy may be full,` (1: 4)

2.This letter was written to a lady and her family. It warns against the abuse of hospitality by those who would spread error in the home and household.

3. This epistle is the converse of the former, and shows who are to be received, and helped in Christian work. Gaius, to whom it is addressed was once host to the apostle Paul, (Rom. 16: 23) having been baptised by him. (1 Cor. 1: 14)

Although John is not in the Body, (being separated to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel), the Holy Spirit still speaks through him to encourage the believers. John does not have the full revelation that the apostle Paul had, and because of that does not speak about the Body of Christ but sees believers as Jews or Gentiles, and not a new man, (as per Paul).

Then there is the book of Revelation, but I think that is enough for now.

Marilyn.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Other references include Luke 1:68-75

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

And of course, the perpetual favorite Matthew 15:24.

Again learn not to anticipate revelation, 1 Cor 15:1-4 was not known to the OT prophets, nor anyone else, until Paul.

It was only after the mystery revealed to Paul, then we understand that the cross is for the sins of the entire world.

Do you not believe the cross removed the imperfect unsatisfactory old covenant sacrificial animal sacrifice system?

 

[Guojing]

Do you not believe the cross removed the imperfect unsatisfactory old covenant sacrificial animal sacrifice system?

I do, but its unrelated to the post you replied to.

A gentile in the OT, even if he were to sacrifice animals, his sins are still not covered/forgiven.

In the OT, without joining Israel, he can sacrifice all the animals he want and he is still going to hell. (Ephesians 2:11-12)

 

[sovereigngrace]

I do, but its unrelated to the post you replied to.

I do not believe it is unrelated, and you did not answer what I asked.

A gentile in the OT, even if he were to sacrifice animals, his sins are still not covered/forgiven.

So where are the OT saints now if their "sins are still not covered/forgiven"? Was the cross not the only acceptable and efficacious sacrifice for sin?

In the OT, without joining Israel, he can sacrifice all the animals he want and he is still going to hell. (Ephesians 2:11-12)

So, if they joined Israel and sacrificed animals was that enough to get them to heaven?

 

[jgr]

I do, but its unrelated to the post you replied to.

A gentile in the OT, even if he were to sacrifice animals, his sins are still not covered/forgiven.

In the OT, without joining Israel, he can sacrifice all the animals he want and he is still going to hell. (Ephesians 2:11-12)

If he lived in true covenant relationship with God, he could live anywhere on the planet and be saved.

Nineveh never "joined Israel", but it repented under Jonah's preaching, and God accepted its repentance and spared it. Jonah 3:10.

Do you think that God sent all of the Ninevites who had repented to hell thereafter?

Did Paul know Jonah 3:10 when he wrote Ephesians 2:11-12?

Would Paul contradict Jonah 3:10?

Between Jonah, Paul, and yourself, who do you think is in error?

 

[Guojing]

So, if they joined Israel and sacrificed animals was that enough to get them to heaven?

If they died before the cross, but they remained part of Israel and the covenant and not cut off, they will all be placed on Abraham's bosom/Paradise at the end of their lives on Earth.

In the 2nd coming of Christ, they will awaken and enter into the promised kingdom on Earth, together with Christ for 1000 years. John 11:24

 

[sovereigngrace]

If he lived in true covenant relationship with God, he could live anywhere on the planet and be saved.

Nineveh never "joined Israel", but it repented under Jonah's preaching, and God accepted its repentance and spared it. Jonah 3:10.

Do you think that God sent all of the Ninevites who had repented to hell thereafter?

Did Paul know Jonah 3:10 when he wrote Ephesians 2:11-12?

Would Paul contradict Jonah 3:10?

Between Jonah, Paul, and yourself, who do you think is in error?

In the light of some of the wild and weird theories floating around out there, it is important that we address some key issues:

· How many different types of salvation are there in Scripture?
· How many different Saviors are there in Scripture?
· How many different peoples of God are there in Scripture?

Essentially, what we need to establish is: does God have two or more separate peoples that are saved in two or more distinct ways or does He have one unitary chosen people going back to the beginning of time that are saved by faith in Christ?