2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,
Like many people who listen and follow Jesus, we wonder about your "rebuke".

You can speak for yourself, unless you took a survey of some kind. Who are all these "we" that wonder?

So my wonder is simple. Can you imagine this simple reality?

Sure. I deal and focus on reality.

Before you is the most precious thing anyone can ever possess.
It is yours as a free gift, and you just happen to find it. You life is hard and everything is going wrong, but with this one thing, everything changes.

How big a debt do you have to the person who gave you this free gift?
What will you not do if called to by the giver of this free gift?

Unfortunately I can only provide the fruit of the work Jesus has done in my life, and talk about the path I have followed.

All of this rings quite hollow since you continue to refuse to believe what Jesus teaches.

It is true there are many who feel great failure and want to earn forgiveness, or pay penance, or balance the scales of evil with points for good.

This is irrelevant to our discussion.

So your rebuke is not aimed at my repentance of sin, or my faith in Jesus, or my following, or my love, or my walk.

I already explained the focus of my rebuke to you.

I have security in Jesus because of the cross, and knowing who Jesus is.

Do you feel that your security is in your continued belief, or what?

It is what drives my whole life.

That's not what you have explained. What drives your whole life are your emotions and feelings. That's what your posts are full of.

So where is your rebuke and what is its meaning?

I guess you didn't read my post. You've indicated that it is possible for a recipient of eternal life to perish. That view is rebukable.

Jesus did not say have security in me and live like the world.

I'll tell you what ELSE He did not say. That anyone who has been given eternal life can perish, for _________ (go ahead and fill in the blank).

Until you can say, yes this brother loves Jesus and walks with Him, you will be trapped in your belief, and make enemies of brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'm not trapped in anything. That is absurd.

And to claim that you "love Jesus" but DON'T BELIEVE what He teaches is worse than absurd.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Nothing at all. Paul said this:
in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
2 Cor 2:11

Here speaks a man who has never seen things put into a different perspective that destroys their position or makes it. We often spend much of our lives believing things will sort out one way and they go a different route.

Some outcomes are very scary. I am aware of this fear, when my breathing is restricted and something might get stuck in my throat. In reality this can happen at any point, but when you are aware of it, ones emotions rise to tell you of the danger.

And those who are most defensive, and stay static in their assumptions feel they are secure and nothing can touch them. The problem is the stronger one appears to be, the actually weaker one is, because rather than trusting in Christ knowing things are secure and safe, one spends all ones energy proving to the world what one is.

Jesus taught us the power of love, letting things be, and seeking to bless as we make contact with others. So rather than defending ourselves we share what has been and is in Christ, because it stands and is real, and is the power of God for salvation. Amen

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"This is a good example of the problem of emotions. You should have just realized your mistake and moved on. Not destroy your life by your insecurities."

Thank you free. This illustrates the difference between ourselves.

You're quite welcome.

[QUTOE]We live by two systems. The first is learn responses to incoming information and situations. For instance I can touch type. I do not need to think about the response and the exact letters I need to create rather just the words I want to put down.

The second is our analysis and resetting of these responses that takes a lot of time and learning, and is slow.[/QUOTE]
I fail to follow what you point might be here. I don't live by 2 systems, whatever that may be.

Now I am being honest about my failure and my mistakes.
And unfortunately if I get my driving wrong, I will die. And with a small adjustment, the risks will be brought to a reasonable level.

That wasn't my point. It was about your ruined life for a year, due to your emotional response to your mistake.

Your response was to say I should not destroy my life by my insecurities.

Which is very good advice.

So actually listening to who I am, putting real changes in place that are needed and building up again a better approach is destroying my life.

This sentence doesn't make sense. What "is destroying your life"?

Jesus calls us to look at everything and build things in a new, caring, loving way.

Really? Please provide evidence from Scripture.

And this sensitivity is looked at by yourself as unnecessary.

Show me any verse that supports your feelings.

But this is my point, as sinners transformed into saints everything needs to be changed.

Not by focusing on your feelings.

There is no boundary or restriction on that need, only to bring it all to the altar and let the Lord have His way in our hearts.

Why don't you begin by believing what He teaches?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I feel for you.

Yeah, you have a lot of them.

Empathy and care are not part of your walk, of wondering how people are and what matters to them.

Didn't you read Scripture where Paul speaks of rebuking erroneous thinking and behaving?

God does not care for the orphans, widows, oppressed and responds to their calls for mercy and justice?

Yes, He does.

He does not bleed for the lost or offer any in need a message of hope?

No, and yes. No, He doesn't "bleed for the lost". Jesus died for the lost so that they could have eternal life. And yes, He does offer hope in the gospel.

Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh because he did not want to see them spared and forgiven, but God did. God put it like this

The LORD said, “You were upset about this little plant, something for which you have not worked nor did you do anything to make it grow. It grew up overnight and died the next day. Should I not be even more concerned about Nineveh, this enormous city? There are more than one hundred twenty thousand people in it who do not know right from wrong, as well as many animals!”
Jonah 4:10-11

Of course God is concerned about mankind. Which is why His Son had to go to the cross and pay the penalty of sin.

But I fail to understand how any of this relates to our discussion of why you persist in NOT believing what Jesus taught regarding eternal security.

 

[LightLoveHope]

That's not what you have explained. What drives your whole life are your emotions and feelings. That's what your posts are full of.

Amen. The fruit of Jesus and worship of His work, is emotional. We are made with a heart of flesh, to bring praise to His name.

You sound like a hard hearted man where nothing stirs you.
And unfortunately my message to you, is if Jesus does not stir you and His love, what are you in the faith?

Empathy with each other is at the heart of walking in Jesus.
Are you unaware of this, my friend?

If you cannot feel compassion for me, and joy that the Lord found me and brought me out of deep despair and lostness, then where is the Holy Spirit in your heart?

It is like seeing a parent with a child and the child falls over hurts themselves, and the parent just ignores them and carries on reading. There is no empathy or connection.

That is what I fear for you, and wonder what you think that means you know?

You want me to respect and be challenged by your gospel version, but it is like a husk with no heart, a view of life with no love, a condemnation to continual slavery to sin and just encouraging one another while being overwhelmed. That is not the Jesus I know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Nothing at all. Paul said this:
in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
2 Cor 2:11"

Here speaks a man who has never seen things put into a different perspective that destroys their position or makes it.

My position is the Bible's position, so there is nothing that can "destroy" it.

Some outcomes are very scary. I am aware of this fear, when my breathing is restricted and something might get stuck in my throat. In reality this can happen at any point, but when you are aware of it, ones emotions rise to tell you of the danger.

What ever are you referring to?

And those who are most defensive, and stay static in their assumptions feel they are secure and nothing can touch them. The problem is the stronger one appears to be, the actually weaker one is, because rather than trusting in Christ knowing things are secure and safe, one spends all ones energy proving to the world what one is.

What ever are you talking about?

Jesus taught us the power of love, letting things be, and seeking to bless as we make contact with others. So rather than defending ourselves we share what has been and is in Christ, because it stands and is real, and is the power of God for salvation. Amen

Why don't you believe what Jesus taught about eternal security?

 

[LightLoveHope]

I fail to follow what you point might be here. I don't live by 2 systems, whatever that may be.

All humans do, whether they accept it or not.
It is why we have muscle memory and culture. They are both aspects of learnt behaviour and systems of thought and feelings.

You talk about "truth" yet you fail to realise so basics of human existence.
Some of these observations are very modern, though they have always been true.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Amen. The fruit of Jesus and worship of His work, is emotional.

This couldn't more wrong.

The fruit of Jesus (weird wording, for sure) is His death on the cross for our sins. And we aren't supposed to worship His work, as you suppose, but worship HIM.

You sound like a hard hearted man where nothing stirs you.

You are so bound up in your own feelings and emotions, you have no ability to grasp reality and understand anything I say.

And unfortunately my message to you, is if Jesus does not stir you and His love, what are you in the faith?

Where did I ever say that Jesus doesn't stir me? Why do you so consistently mischaracterize me?

Empathy with each other is at the heart of walking in Jesus.

No it isn't, and you can't provide any verse that says what you feel.

Are you unaware of this, my friend?

I am unaware of any Scriptural support for your many emotional feelings.

If you cannot feel compassion for me, and joy that the Lord found me and brought me out of deep despair and lostness, then where is the Holy Spirit in your heart?

I've already said that I feel sorry for you. Isn't that compassion?

It is like seeing a parent with a child and the child falls over hurts themselves, and the parent just ignores them and carries on reading. There is no empathy or connection.

Well, I've certainly NOT ignored your errors. I've been quite patient in pointing them out to you.

That is what I fear for you, and wonder what you think that means you know?

Your fears for me are quite unfounded.

You want me to respect and be challenged by your gospel version, but it is like a husk with no heart, a view of life with no love, a condemnation to continual slavery to sin and just encouraging one another while being overwhelmed.

No, I only want you to know that your views are in OPPOSITION to what Jesus taught about eternal security. What you do with that knowledge is between you and the Lord.

That is not the Jesus I know.

I'm starting to wonder which Jesus you claim to know, since you have no problem being in OPPOSITION to what He teaches.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All humans do, whether they accept it or not.

Your claim hardly makes it true.

You talk about "truth" yet you fail to realise so basics of human existence.

I'e backed up my views (truth without quotes) with Scripture that says what I claim.

Unlike yourself. By putting quotes around the word truth only reveals your lack of respect for what the Bible says.

 

[LightLoveHope]

My position is the Bible's position, so there is nothing that can "destroy" it.

Jesus can destroy what you think is your position in Christ.
This is why I try to bring all before Him. Only before Him do I find a place of peace and love.

Much of what we hold to, can be wrong because of how we put into context.
And there are many things in life we ignore, but bring us safety and security.

When they are removed, our world changes.
In being a parent and a son, these things can quickly change.

But then for those without relationship connections, then maybe there is literally nothing there so nothing to lose.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Your claim hardly makes it true.

Hi Free, this is not my claim.

I desire to know the truth and define all aspects of my experience, and am interested in how neuroscience and behaviour studies are improving our understanding of the human condition.

So I was mentioning an aspect of study which helps people understand learning and how we see only selected parts of an event, and miss others.

The glorious thing is, the more we discover the more it points to Jesus.
The latest thing was a looking for genetic markers in different mamals, to discover what the differences were between different species. What they discovered rather than a spread of features, each species had a distinct focus and boundary. This pointed more to creation than evolution.

This is why your way of handling "truth" is so flawed. It is only with humbleness can we aspire to grasp truth as we have it in life and in Jesus. Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

By putting quotes around the word truth only reveals your lack of respect for what the Bible says.

The problem is, your definition of truth is not honest.
I have shown without doubt that Jesus was talking about His sheep, those who are His people. He was promising them their future, in the context of they abide in Him.

It is foolish to take His clear warnings about not abiding leads to death and destruction, that He gives a promise with no limits, when clearly He has limited it.

3 parables about those who thought they were safe and get thrown out, is 100% direct.
I have no respect for those who ignore such things.

Worse still, when Jesus says put my words into action, you will be a strong building built on the rock, He meant it. Any other way is to invite disaster and collapse. After living in a family where this very thing happened, I testify that both realities are true.

This is why working through all these points is enlightening, because it confirms my initial conclusions.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This couldn't more wrong.

I do love you. The only people I have ever met who talk like this are very cut off.
Guys who led the spanish inquisition must have been like this also.

The truth they thought was the church, and the heretics were possessed and had to be tortured until they confessed to the evil that had possessed them.

There was a recent analysis of Hitler and his fascination with cleanliness. Dirt and contamination was something he was consumed with. He considered the jews as the people who were destroying everything, the enemy within, and they had to be cleansed from the country before the ideal society could be created. All these "truth" justifications led to the most terrible behaviour toward innocent people just living their normal lives.

What stops us falling into this emotional trap is empathy, knowing the heart of others and feeling for them.

Jesus speaks to us in our hearts, and shows us we are poor sinners in need of Him and His love and life. To not have an emotional response to this new life, is to actually be dead inside.

This is why I am happy to get involved in a passion play in our area around easter to express my debt and love of Jesus. Jesus is the King of who we are, Thank you Jesus. God bless you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus can destroy what you think is your position in Christ.

What a weird comment. Why would Jesus destroy my knowledge of my position in Christ?

What are you actually trying to get at here?

Are you insinuating that one's position in Christ isn't permanent? If that is so, then you are ignorant of Eph 1:13,14, which doesn't permit such a strange view.

This is why I try to bring all before Him.

Have you confessed your DISBELIEF in what He teaches concerning eternal security?

Only before Him do I find a place of peace and love.

And all the while DISBELIEVING what He teaches. Somehow, your claims ring hollow.

Much of what we hold to, can be wrong because of how we put into context.
And there are many things in life we ignore, but bring us safety and security.

How about just plainly making whatever point you're trying to make.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Your claim hardly makes it true."

Hi Free, this is not my claim.

If not, then identify where your claim came from.

I desire to know the truth and define all aspects of my experience, and am interested in how neuroscience and behaviour studies are improving our understanding of the human condition.

Are these things above the Word of God? And as to your claimed "desire" to know the truth, I've given you the truth and you just keep rejecting it outright. So don't think you're tricking me here.

The glorious thing is, the more we discover the more it points to Jesus.

The more we know God's Word, the more we point to Jesus.

The latest thing was a looking for genetic markers in different mamals, to discover what the differences were between different species. What they discovered rather than a spread of features, each species had a distinct focus and boundary. This pointed more to creation than evolution.

You mean you didn't learn about creation from God's Word? Sheesh!

This is why your way of handling "truth" is so flawed.

So, go ahead and explain clearly how "my way of handling truth" is so flawed. I'll bet you can't do that. You just like to sound as though you can.

And this is at least the second occurrence of your putting quote marks around the word truth when applied to my views. Which shows that my views, which I've supported from God's Word doesn't have much respect in your corner. Sad.

It is only with humbleness can we aspire to grasp truth as we have it in life and in Jesus. Amen.

So, what's keeping you from believing the truth about what Jesus taught about those He gives eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"By putting quotes around the word truth only reveals your lack of respect for what the Bible says."

The problem is, your definition of truth is not honest.

My definition of truth is exactly what God's Word SAYS. And which you've consistently OPPOSED. So don't tell me what's honest or not. Your posts are very dishonest. You keep claiming how much you love and follow Jesus, yet you keep on OPPOSING what He teaches regarding eternal security.

I have shown without doubt that Jesus was talking about His sheep, those who are His people.

So was I.

He was promising them their future, in the context of they abide in Him.

You have failed to prove that the context of John 10:28 is that there is ANY condition that His sheep must meet in order to not perish.

Anyone who has graduated from grade school can easily see that in v.27 and v.28 of John 10 there is NO CONDITION between Jesus giving the gift of eternal life and recipients not perishing.

If there WAS any condition, it would have to be BETWEEN "I give them eternal life" and "they shall never perish". But there are no conditions between those 2 phrases.

To claim there are conditions when there aren't any is also dishonest.

It is foolish to take His clear warnings about not abiding leads to death and destruction, that He gives a promise with no limits, when clearly He has limited it.

There are NO CONDITIONS in v.28 for never perishing to recipients of eternal life.

What you are referring to is about fellowship. Something that you have clearly indicated that you know nothing about.

3 parables about those who thought they were safe and get thrown out, is 100% direct.

Name the parables, so I can explain what they mean. They CAN'T mean loss of salvation, or then John 10:28 would be a LIE.

I have no respect for those who ignore such things.

I have no respect for those who claim to love and follow Jesus yet OPPOSE what He teaches.

After living in a family where this very thing happened, I testify that both realities are true.

Your wounded emotions from all that history testify that you are unable to testify to truth. Which you clearly revealed in post #1613 and your single mistake that led to a car accident and crippled you emotionally for a year. i.e.: driving was difficult and you questioned everything.

This is why working through all these points is enlightening, because it confirms my initial conclusions.

You've confirmed nothing. Confirmation requires knowledge and facts. All you've shown are your feelings and emotions, and your admission that your emotions crippled you for a year.

That's not how to live the Christian life. There is no victory in your sad story.

What you should have done is learn from your mistake and be careful not to repeat it. Instead, you admitted that you questioned "everything" and found it difficult to drive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do love you. The only people I have ever met who talk like this are very cut off.
Guys who led the spanish inquisition must have been like this also.

The truth they thought was the church, and the heretics were possessed and had to be tortured until they confessed to the evil that had possessed them.

There was a recent analysis of Hitler and his fascination with cleanliness. Dirt and contamination was something he was consumed with. He considered the jews as the people who were destroying everything, the enemy within, and they had to be cleansed from the country before the ideal society could be created. All these "truth" justifications led to the most terrible behaviour toward innocent people just living their normal lives.

What stops us falling into this emotional trap is empathy, knowing the heart of others and feeling for them.

Jesus speaks to us in our hearts, and shows us we are poor sinners in need of Him and His love and life. To not have an emotional response to this new life, is to actually be dead inside.

This is why I am happy to get involved in a passion play in our area around easter to express my debt and love of Jesus. Jesus is the King of who we are, Thank you Jesus. God bless you.

You keep talking about loving and following Jesus, yet you have rejected His clear message of eternal security for those He gives eternal life.

Such is not balanced. Unstable. And post #1613 proves that my claims about emotions are true. You've lived it.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You keep talking about loving and following Jesus, yet you have rejected His clear message of eternal security for those He gives eternal life.

Such is not balanced. Unstable. And post #1613 proves that my claims about emotions are true. You've lived it.

Hello my friend,

I have demonstrated to you how a person with an open heart expresses their love for Christ and His people, the desire to walk in Gods will and to know His power in them.

Yet for a belief in security above anything else you would call this evil, satanic and wrong.

What do you think the promise of the Kingdom actually is? Surely it is the ability of man to walk with Jesus, in His ways and by His love flowing through them abiding in the vine.

And the proof that this has taken place is emotional flow in an appropriate way.
Paul put it like this

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Ephesians 5:1-5

The problem is this life is obviously not something you experience, or else you would agree with me, and secondly your belief in security cuts you off from its fulfilment through unbelief.

You do not believe Jesus can bring you into His likeness, for you to be an open loving individual with your emotions fully expressed giving glory to Christ.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Shutting God out through unbelief

Ironically those who close their heart to God, saying their hearts are desperately wicked are living in unbelief while claiming they know Jesus and have His truth.

For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'
Mark 7:21-23

If God could not cleanse such a heart Jesus could not say this

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Luke 6:45

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Tim 1:5

Paul testified that his heart was pure, and had a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Peter talks about our walk and the effort involved.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:5-11

Above is clear, we are called to a path that takes effort, choice and dedication.
We are cleansed and purified upon which we are to build love.

Those who live in a world where Jesus cannot cleanse them and they cannot walk in the way of Jesus, live in unbelief while claiming followers of Jesus are evil and following the enemy trying to prove their worth, rather than believing in Jesus, when the reverse is actually true. They do not believe Jesus and refuse to obey.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Peters belief that we can fall short and be rejected

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall.
2 Peter 1:10

Peter is saying no matter what we think we are in Christ, it is in His hand that we are called His children or rejected.

This is not to diminish His love and calling but rather our unworthiness and our continual need to be humble, careful, meek, thankful and full of praise.

We abide in Him, and He is us, and this is the Kingdom, now and into eternity. To turn ones back on this is to turn ones back on eternity. So when people say, oh it does not matter when believers who have tasted of the love of Jesus and His life to abandon Him, they are still in the Kingdom is foolishness.

Jesus is open and clear about what the Kingdom is and how He works. If one rejects Him when you know it all, what is there left to reveal? The point of the Kingdom is it is a choice of love above security and safety, accepting Gods will and blessing rather than grabbing as much as you can while you can, because that is all you can get.

Those who live in unbelief, that Jesus cannot graft them into the vine as pure holy people, of course will reject the things of God, because they do not have them, while claiming they know the secrets of the Kingdom.