2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

Let us look at what people claim

I sin and there are serious consequences, but I do not know what they are
I am safe and secure though the God I say makes me secure judges sin

To me anyone who says they sin, and abides in that sin, wilfully hurting and destroying those around them, has serious issues and problems.

They cannot claim to care or love the people they hurt and destroy because they continue in the sinful behaviour.

And the God they claim to follow says His follows will love those they meet and live with and literally fulfil the law by loving.

These are not people who are wilfully hurting and destroying those around them. So no matter what they say after they wilfully sin, they simply do not care or know God. And if they do not know God they are not saved.

In a court of law, as a murderer being sentenced for murder though being let off, does not say, I do not care, and I will murder tomorrow, and still you will let me off. Only a lunatic will think a loving God whose nature is justice and holiness would forgive such evil doers such as these, who do not know the meaning of repentance and walking is love and righteousness, or righteous walking.

And here is the problem. Sinners who want to be called good while sinning. Doomed from the day they utter such a ludicrous idea, worthy to be locked up and the key thrown away as socially irresponsible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please stop taking away from God’s word, to prop up your deceitful man made doctrine.

I've taken nothing away from Scripture, as you yourself know full well. As does every person who follows this discussion. And you know you can't prove your silly and empty claims.

And, as far as "deceitful man made doctrine", that's what you keep pandering. That recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

John 10:28 does not say that.

Stupid and erroneous comments do not make the comment true.

v.28 "I (Jesus is speaking) give them (believers in Him) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

What you fail to admit is the truth; recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You intentionally butchered that verse to deceitfully hide the truth.

Oh, did I now? Please prove your idiotic statement, if you can.

How can any verse be "butchered" when the verse is quoted directly? Absurd.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

You intentionally left out the word “and”, because verse 28 is connected to verse 27.

Ah, such butchering.

Your charge is beyond ludicrous.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27.

How do you get a "result" here? There are no words of obeying at all, in either verse. And the ONLY "result" in v.28 is that those who are given eternal life shall never perish, which is my point, the very point you don't want to accept.

Once again you have exposed yourself and your doctrine as false.

Look.in.mirror.and.repeat.this.sentence.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Well, there's you problem. You continue to seem more interested in anything "outside the bible", rather than focusing on what the Bible says.

However, I will not be deterred regarding your preferences. I will continue to quote verses that REFUTE your emotions."

I do wonder how you think you have any authority at all.

Authority for what, exactly, do you think I have? Again, your questions are weird and seem to be completely void of anything connected to our discussion.

Unless you understand your audience you could be using the wrong words in the wrong way.

Well, I use biblical words, so my audience isn't the issue at all. If my audience can't understand biblical words, or doesn't like them, that's their own problem, not mine.

Equally the words you are reading with your own background could have meant something else to the writer.

Nope. I always consult Greek lexicons for what the words meant in the Greek.

The fact that you deny this factual reality, when you claim to be driven by facts shows you do not know how in a subjective world we deduce what the truth is.

If you think truth is deduced by subjectivity, then you are in deeper trouble than you'll ever know.

Truth isn't deduced. It's believed. Or, in your case, rejected. But that's your choice.

You claim to have a university education yet you do not follow the normal critical thinking approach, to check the basis of all propositions and ideas.

This is just laughable. Why would you think that anyone's "proposition or ideas" could be better than God's? That's simply insane. What pleases God is faith. Heb 11:6, so your defense of so-called "critical thinking" is a joke. But go ahead and tell God that there are other "propositions and ideas" that seem to be better than what He has given us in His Word. Then let me know the outcome of that conversation.

I have spoken to flat earthers who show behaviour just like yourself.

OK, just more knuckleheads and idiots. But it's clear that's who you seem to want to focus on. But know one thing: such idiots do NOT show behavior like mine. They have, like you, no interest in truth or Scripture. Which is WHY they think like they do. So, in fact, their behavior is WAY MORE like yours than mine.

It is always educational to meet people such as these, yet there is no progress until the basic steps of logic are followed which trump assumptions and pre-conceived ideas.

That's why I skip all that mumbo jumbo and get facts from the Bible. There are no assumptions or preconceived ideas in God's word.

In summary you would be happy to speak a lie, if you believed it came from scripture and your emotions supported you in such a proposition.

The LIE here is if you claim that anything in your sentence was true. Nothing in your sentence is true. It's ALL false.

The idea you could be wrong in this situation, is something you seem to be unable to accept.

Here's the test for that. Prove any of your claims by quoting Scripture (with citation).

Can you do that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

My approach to truth

Everything I think is totally in my own head, therefore totally subjective.

And that is the totality of your problem. Thanks for making such a clear point.

And since you have admitted this, it is clear that you are not capable of having any kind of rational or reasonable discussion with you. But, because of your bondage to subjectivity, you will not be able to comprehend any of what I post to you.

Only once I have checked and confirmed the logic and basis of my conclusions can I come to a conclusion about anything.

Are you not aware that logic is devoid of any subjectivity? So how did you accomplish that feat, given your dedication to subjectivity?

Faith by its nature relies totally on our subjective observations and conclusions, reading of scripture and building models of life and theology for ourselves.

This is total nonsense. Faith is taking God at His word. Trusting in what He says.

It has zero to do with subjectivity, or observations, or building models of life, whatever that may mean.

These are therefore more vulnerable to mistakes and simple changes of emphasis that have major implications on how we live and interact. It means care always has to be taken, and the awareness that we could be wrong.

How come you are so UNaware of your own errors? Oh yeah. All that subjectivity bouncing around in your head.

Paul encourages us to test everything, to be open, generous and caring. So Amen to that.

He said a whole lot more than that. And by "testing", he didn't mean anything about being subjective.

In order to test requires total objectivity and FACTS, that nasty little word that you seem allergic to.

So, please don't talk to me about testing. You're not even capable of that, given the first sentence of your post.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem is with your defence is what exactly do you lose for not following Jesus?
You simply do not know, you just state it as a fact.

Well, this absolutely proves that you haven't read any of Gr9Grace's or my posts.

What is lost is God's blessings during our lives on earth, and reward in eternity, PLUS facing God's PAINFUL DISCIPLINE during ourt lives on earth (Heb 12:11).

We've said that over and over, yet you keep asking the question.

This is another reason why it's impossible to have an adult discussion with you. You're not paying any attention. You're just too focused on your own feelings.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let us look at what people claim

No, let's not. That's all you've been focused on, and there is no use or profit from doing so. As I've pointed out countless times.

 

[Gr8Grace]

The problem is with your defence is what exactly do you lose for not following Jesus?
You simply do not know, you just state it as a fact.

1 0f 2 options here:
1.Your not reading our posts
or
2. Your lying.

Loss of our reigning with Him.
2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Loss of a full reward.
2 John 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Now pay special attention to this one.
Matt 6:1~~New American Standard Bible
"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.


Loss of crowns.
James 1:12~~New American Standard Bible
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

These are just a few possible ETERNAL things of value that believers can possibly lose if they continue in sin. AND don't miss this part, believers who continue to live in their OWN self-righteousness are in the same boat as those nasty sinners.

And I will give you a bonus one to ponder. I am sure this one will blow your mind.

Believer's who never figure out that they have the Spirit quenched and live in their own righteousness their whole lives and believers who grieve the Spirit their whole lives................will not have FREE access to the tree of life through the Gates of the city. They are gonna have to be led in by those who lived in His plan and are REIGNING with him.
Rev 22:14~~New American Standard Bible
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

I will venture to guess that you have never heard that this is a REWARD. All believers enter heaven, but not all will have a full inheritance/reward.

 

[LightLoveHope]

1 0f 2 options here:
1.Your not reading our posts
or
2. Your lying.

Loss of our reigning with Him.
2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Loss of a full reward.
2 John 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Now pay special attention to this one.
Matt 6:1~~New American Standard Bible
"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.


Loss of crowns.
James 1:12~~New American Standard Bible
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

These are just a few possible ETERNAL things of value that believers can possibly lose if they continue in sin. AND don't miss this part, believers who continue to live in their OWN self-righteousness are in the same boat as those nasty sinners.

And I will give you a bonus one to ponder. I am sure this one will blow your mind.

Believer's who never figure out that they have the Spirit quenched and live in their own righteousness their whole lives and believers who grieve the Spirit their whole lives................will not have FREE access to the tree of life through the Gates of the city. They are gonna have to be led in by those who lived in His plan and are REIGNING with him.
Rev 22:14~~New American Standard Bible
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

I will venture to guess that you have never heard that this is a REWARD. All believers enter heaven, but not all will have a full inheritance/reward.

Let us look at your list
Not reigning with Christ
Losing what you have accomplished, loss of everything gained
Crown of life not received
Not having access to the tree of life

All of this is losing ones salvation.

You talk about this as if these are not foundational losses.
How can you not have salvation and be saved?

Showing ones righteousness has no reward ie there is nothing gained by showing ones goodness. Doing righteous things has reward, but not saying I am righteous.

What amazes me is you think you have something to contribute by these statements. They just condemn your position as empty and you do not understand the criticism Jesus made of the pharisees of saying how great and important they are, rather than actually doing good things and loving people.

Am I meant to be cut to the heart? Or rather just sad that you think losing out on the crown of life is anything but dying, in judgement in the 2nd death.

This is just mind numbing and very sad.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Let us look at what people claim

This is why you struggle so in discussion. I am looking at what Peter say's and then reply to what peter say's..........not what other people claim.

And here is the problem. Sinners who want to be called good while sinning. Doomed from the day they utter such a ludicrous idea, worthy to be locked up and the key thrown away as socially irresponsible.

This is THE problem:
Luke 18:11-12~~New American Standard Bible
"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'

Sinners who want to be called good while trying not to sin.

Again:
Living the spiritual life(Cleaning the inside/filled and walking in the Spirit) Will ALWAYS result in the outside being clean.

Cleaning the outside will NEVER result in living the Spiritual life(cleaning the inside/being filled with and walking in the Spirit.)

Matt 23~~
25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26“You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28“So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Let us look at your list
Not reigning with Christ
Losing what you have accomplished, loss of everything gained
Crown of life not received
Not having access to the tree of life

All of this is losing ones salvation.

All those verses are about fellowship, and abiding in Him and rewards gained or lost through fellowship or lack thereof.

What you can't do is provide a verse that says salvation can be lost, or born-again Christians being un-born,being unsealed,will again be under condemnation ect.

How can you not have salvation

Exactly. He say's we will never perish. Will not come into condemnation. Are sealed for the day of redemption.
Since believers can NEVER,NO NOT EVER perish........these verses are about the loss of rewards. Or our inheritance IN the kingdom.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Exactly. He say's we will never perish. Will not come into condemnation. Are sealed for the day of redemption.
Since believers can NEVER,NO NOT EVER perish........these verses are about the loss of rewards. Or our inheritance IN the kingdom.

The point is who is not perishing? Those who stay true to the faith, who are believing, having faith, obeying, being with the Lord.

Israel where blessed not because they were chosen but because they obeyed. When they disobeyed they were judged and exiled.

The problem comes when God has given promises to His people who then fall away.
King Ahab is a classic case after Elijah has sacrificed the animals on the altar, and the fire has come down, there is hope Ahab will turn back to God.

When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!" 1 Kings 18:39

"that you are turning their hearts back again" 1 Kings 18:37

Ahab tells Jezebel all that happened and she threatens to kill Elijah.

Unless one walks with God in His ways one is under judgement.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Perish promise

I am in an airplane. I am told as long as I stay in the airplane I will live, because it is pressurised and warm. They do not explain the why, they just emphasis I am safe inside.

So Jesus is saying we are safe if we abide in Him. Not safe from persecution, hatred, anger, violence, but safe in eternal love, safe in our relationships with His people and in His way, He will not let us go, nothing can separate us from His love.

Now if you believe you could just as easily fall back into the world, and be tossed into the superficial playing I am better than you, look at my ...... , maybe the truth is you have never actually left it, and never died to the world and live to Christ.

It is clear to me this is the case for many. They want to privilege of security in Christ while not carrying their cross. The cross is pain of giving love and being rejected, of offering the best and seeing others treat you as dirt.

Now to claim self righteousness is the biggest problem in people is to miss the gospel. The problem is we do not know how to resolve sin, and our behaviour outside of Jesus. Even in the church, for many it is just believing while living as the world. Jesus says some nice moral things, but to change, become one in mind and heart with God or even the next believer in Jesus, no way.

But this is salvation, to become one in Christ.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This is why you struggle so in discussion. I am looking at what Peter say's and then reply to what peter say's..........not what other people claim.

This is THE problem:
Luke 18:11-12~~New American Standard Bible
"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'

Sinners who want to be called good while trying not to sin.

Again:
Living the spiritual life(Cleaning the inside/filled and walking in the Spirit) Will ALWAYS result in the outside being clean.

Cleaning the outside will NEVER result in living the Spiritual life(cleaning the inside/being filled with and walking in the Spirit.)

Matt 23~~
25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26“You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28“So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

And those who condemn righteous walking are just condemning Jesus, the greatest righteous walker who ever lives, now and forever. And if we are to be like Him, to walk as He walked, how can one condemn oneself as evil while God declares us cleansed, forgiven, righteous, holy, pure and blameless.

Hatred of righteous walking is just being an enemy of God.

"Whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him."
1 john 2:11

Not resolving sin, not having an open heart, pretending to be righteous while living as a sinner is hypocrisy.

Strangely those with closed hearts, hate the righteous, because they have light and victory, joy and celebration in Christ the King, Halleluyah, Glory to God.

For Jesus died that I might live, He took my sin, my evil, my hatred, my anger, my bitterness, my envy, my lust, my greed, my ambition, my selfishness and showed me that it kills Him, crucifies His life, and He still forgave me. He knows me from everything I have ever done or will do, and works His purposes out through them all. Even as I write, I walk within His will and purposes.

He is my Lord, my King, the one to whom I bow and give praise. For me to live is Christ, to die is gain. There is no other name more worthy than the Lamb, who did not count the loss of His status something to be considered, but came and was my friend, my Lord and my Saviour. And to you all He offers the same for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The point is who is not perishing? Those who stay true to the faith, who are believing, having faith, obeying, being with the Lord.

And this continues to be the problem with your views.

The words "stay true...", "are believing", "having faith", "obeying" and "being with the Lord" (whatever that may mean) indicate your salvation is by works, or effort on the part of the person.

Yet, John 10:28 is clear. Those who WON'T PERISH are those who have been given eternal life by Jesus. That means the basis for NOT PERISHING is simply being given the gift of eternal life. Nothing more. Or Jesus would have been REQUIRED to make that clear IN John 10:28. Yet, He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to never perish.

But you just don't believe the clarity of Jesus regarding who won't perish. You just MUST add your own requirements that you "feel" are needed.

And, that's again the problem with emotions. They are false, against Scripture.

Israel where blessed not because they were chosen but because they obeyed. When they disobeyed they were judged and exiled.

This is about God's discipline, of course. Which still applies today. But nothing about losing salvation/eternal life.

The problem comes when God has given promises to His people who then fall away.

It's a problem, all right. And God applies discipline for such rebels. But not loss of salvation.

Your problem is the continued assumption that salvation can be lost.

You've given NO evidence from Scripture.

Unless one walks with God in His ways one is under judgement.

True. But once given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

It is just amazing that many who profess faith in Christ STILL don't believe what He says.

I guess it's because what He said in John 10:28 just doesn't "feel right", or some such thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Perish promise

I am in an airplane. I am told as long as I stay in the airplane I will live, because it is pressurised and warm. They do not explain the why, they just emphasis I am safe inside.

All of this is a lie. No one can promise that anyone is safe in an airplane. We already have an example of a suicidal pilot who flew his commercial jet straight into a mountain, killing everyone on board.

Further, no one can guarantee that the airplane won't fail mechanically.

So your example here is not even close to a parallel with what Jesus Christ promises.

So Jesus is saying we are safe if we abide in Him. Not safe from persecution, hatred, anger, violence, but safe in eternal love, safe in our relationships with His people and in His way, He will not let us go, nothing can separate us from His love.

If one understands properly that "abiding" is about fellowship, and not about salvation, then ok, I agree.

However, you have made clear that you believe that one who is saved is NOT SAFE in their salvation. They have to do things to maintain their salvation, or prevent its loss.

And that's NOT what Jesus said.

It is clear to me this is the case for many.

Again, I am not interested in your "many" who have very weird ideas, for sure.

I AM interested in why you persist in disagreeing with what Jesus said. That should be very concerning to you, but for some reason, doesn't seem to be.

They want to privilege of security in Christ while not carrying their cross.

You want them to "earn the privilege". That's salvation by works.

The cross is pain of giving love and being rejected, of offering the best and seeing others treat you as dirt.

So you want saved people to suffer in order to earn the privilege, huh. Again, that's just another form of legalistic religion, what the Pharisees believed, and according to Jesus, whom you don't really believe, said they would "die in their sins". John 8

But this is salvation, to become one in Christ.

No, faith in Christ, trusting in Him alone, is salvation.

Once faith, then sealed (becoming one in Christ).

Can you define or describe what you mean by "become one in Christ"?

Sounds good, but can you explain it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

And those who condemn righteous walking are just condemning Jesus, the greatest righteous walker who ever lives, now and forever.

How about those who profess Christ but don't believe what He says? Is that a problem, or are you comfortable with that?

 

[JLB777]

Why are you so dismissive of Scripture?

Why do you remove words from scripture, to deceive people.

You have to know just how deceitful you are.

Or maybe you don’t.

And the million dollar question. Exactly how do you follow His commandments?

If the commandment is to not lie, that means you tell the truth, rather than lying.


It’s very simple.



He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


Do you know this verse applies to you and I?


Maybe you don’t.

Maybe you believe the Bible doesn’t apply to you.



JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

Hatred of righteous walking is just being an enemy of God.

"Whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him."
1 john 2:11

I wonder how the Lord Jesus Christ feels about self-righteous,passive aggressive believers who hate their brothers so that they find every conceivable scenario known to man to toss em in the LoF?

Righteous walking will never result in living the Spiritual life.

Living the spiritual life will always result in a righteous walk.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I wonder how the Lord Jesus Christ feels about self-righteous,passive aggressive believers who hate their brothers so that they find every conceivable scenario known to man to toss em in the LoF?

Righteous walking will never result in living the Spiritual life.

Living the spiritual life will always result in a righteous walk.

I find the above so troubling. Righteous walking for whatever reason is never wrong. It is sinful behaviour that leads to judgement.

Now to point out sin results in judgement is called hating ones brother???
How lost are these folk? How empty and deluded can they be?

As James says
Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins
James 5:20

Those who support walking in sin, are under condemnation of the law.
Righteous walking is the way of Jesus.

And it can only be achieved by a repentant cleansed open heart walking in love.

The confusion of these folk who hold to their theology, is they are not cleansed, purified and made Holy through a cleansed open heart, it is just a statement of belief which saves them, and God does the rest. Little wonder most never make it to real spiritual truth and reality and end up opposing those who simply share the love of Christ from an open heart.

These folk are not enemies until they make themselves condemners of righteous walkers because they do not believe they can follow Jesus is His walk or bear His name as His ambassador. But praise God, this is our calling in Christ, to carry the cross and love despite persecution, antagonism, anger, and judgementalism.

 

[LightLoveHope]

How about those who profess Christ but don't believe what He says? Is that a problem, or are you comfortable with that?

You are locked into you are eternal and will never perish no matter what you think, do or become. How desperate you are to believe God denies His own nature to appease your conscience.

The logical bias is claimed, as one folk say, to not gain the crown of life, means because you can never perish, it is just losing a reward but staying saved.

So the very thing that should warn a believer, stay close, abide, follow, be true to who Jesus is, and life will be yours eternally, but wander away and you can become lost.

In reassuring His people how much He cares for those who stand with Him, is now used to mean even those who have become enemies are also safe.

I do understand how this logic works. But it is because the fear in ones heart is so great and ones conscience condemns too easily, before remembering the will of God.

When you start a new job, any small failure feels like the worst thing ever, that all is lost, and one is hopeless. So yes we get too sensitive to being "perfect" in our own eyes, rather than seeing love at work in us and in others.

So we obey because we love Jesus, and we believe Him saying it leads to life. After many decades of walking with Jesus, it is life, it is freedom, it is the way to heaven. It changes everything. And I know many lost people who have had affairs, run off into wealth, indulgence, their own dreams and lost it all. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Follow Him, Amen.