2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[BNR32FAN]

I am waiting for him to start teaching universalism.............It's what the early church 'fathers' taught.

References please

 

[Gr8Grace]

References please

Wait a minute. We all have been waiting patiently for your references from the smorshodox church and their 'interpretation' of the aorist tense.......Give me that......And I will flood you with references on how the early church fathers believed in universalism.

 

[Gr8Grace]

I’ve met a few who were believers who later became atheist.

But you have never met any who became unsaved, lost eternal life, became a goat again, lost His seal, became perishable...........Live in His promises and His word, not your experience.

I guarantee if you live in His promises( You will NEVER perish) rather than making up extreme scenarios and 'feelings' experience .........You will advance in His Life for you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Wait a minute. We all have been waiting patiently for your references from the smorshodox church and their 'interpretation' of the aorist tense.......Give me that......And I will flood you with references on how the early church fathers believed in universalism.

It’s really quite simple the Orthodox Church does not teach eternal security. They have always taught conditional salvation. The aorist tense is irrelevant because the church has always taught that a person must presently believe in order to be saved. A person who believed at one time then turns to doubt God and doesn’t repent will not be saved. So please do explain how the church taught that everyone would be saved regardless of believing in Jesus or not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But you have never met any who became unsaved, lost eternal life, became a goat again, lost His seal, became perishable...........Live in His promises and His word, not your experience.

I guarantee if you live in His promises( You will NEVER perish) rather than making up extreme scenarios and 'feelings' experience .........You will advance in His Life for you.

My beliefs have nothing to do with “feelings experiences” my beliefs are based on biblical facts supported by the Church of God since the beginning of Christianity. You forget that I also once believed in OSAS and defended it passionately until I learned more about God’s Word and received a more comprehensive understanding of the scriptures as a whole. I graduated from taking single verses out of context and realized the bigger message by not simply dismissing the verses that don’t support OSAS and actually refute the idea by contemplating how all the scriptures can be true without contradicting each other I came to the realization that the Orthodox Church has kept the message intact since the beginning. I wasn’t before nor am I now too afraid or embarrassed to admit my mistake because what’s most important to me is that I don’t mislead others the way I was misled. I don’t need to be right I need to speak the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those teachings were handed down from the apostles in the churches they established.

Oh, just stop it. They rejected grace, which is obvious from their writings.

Adversus Haeresus was written around 180AD. Did the apostles go around establishing churches so that we could ignore their teachings?

I guess you didn't read the verses where it was PROPHESIED that false teachers would get into the church.

If your saying they’re false teachings your saying that all of Christianity was teaching falsely because all of the churches taught that salvation is conditional which would mean that for the first 1500 years the gates of hell did prevail until Martin Luther finally came along.

By "all of the churches", you can only mean the Catholic church, or it's subsidiaries, the "orthodox" churches. And YES, they WERE and ARE still teaching false doctrine.

Why did the apostles establish churches if all of them were wrong?

As I pointed out, they KNEW the church (body of Christ) would be infiltrated with false teachers.

Do some reading about the early anabaptists. Know anything about them? They DID understand grace and the various doctrines and were heavily persecuted by the Catholic church.

Their name means 'baptize again'. Why? Because they knew from Scripture that the ritual of water baptism was for believers only. NEVER for infants or any unbeliever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’ve already explained several times.

And every time is in error.

He is warning His 11 faithful apostles that they must abide (remain) in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off (detached or to take off or away what is attached) from the vine (Jesus) cast away (carelessly thrown away or discarded without regard) to wither (dry up or waste away) into the fire to be burned (set on fire or consumed by fire).

Are you really so unaware of the fact that Jews were (and still are) quite proud of being the "chosen"? What were they chosen for? Service to God. And when they persecuted Christians, they thought they were serving God.

John 16:2 - They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

So, in the previous chapter, Jesus was making the point that unless believers are IN fellowship with Him, they will be cut off from SERVICE to God. A horrible thought to orthodox Jews, and Christians.

Which part of this sounds like it ends with salvation?

None of it.

If failing to bear fruit leads to hell, then Jesus LIED in John 10:28. How can you NOT see this?

He said He gives eternal life (to believers) and they shall never perish.

According to your opinion/theory, He said "I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY BEAR FRUIT, they shall never perish."

Or this, "I give them eternal life, and IF THEY CONTINUE TO BEAR FRUIT, they shall never perish."

Yet, He said none of that. He was clear; recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

But you choose to believe something in direct opposition to what He said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It’s really quite simple the Orthodox Church does not teach eternal security.

Simply wrong as well. They teach in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. John 10:28

They have always taught conditional salvation.

Which proves that they have always been WRONG.

The aorist tense is irrelevant because the church has always taught that a person must presently believe in order to be saved.

Oh, I seeeee. The false church's opinions are more valuable than what the actual Greek text SAYS. Sheeeeesh! Well, at least you're being transparent about it.

A person who believed at one time then turns to doubt God and doesn’t repent will not be saved.

I believe what Jesus said, over what the false church of the so-called "orthodox" says.

So please do explain how the church taught that everyone would be saved regardless of believing in Jesus or not.

We have churches and teachers even today that teach the horrendous heresy of universalism.

And I have explained the warning of the writers of Scripture of false teaching coming in to the church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My beliefs have nothing to do with “feelings experiences” my beliefs are based on biblical facts supported by the Church of God since the beginning of Christianity.

No they're not based on biblical facts. Your views are in direct opposition to John 10:28, yet you won't engage with that verse because it clearly refutes your false teaching.

You forget that I also once believed in OSAS and defended it passionately until I learned more about God’s Word and received a more comprehensive understanding of the scriptures as a whole.

How sad. What really happened is that you were sucked in by a false teacher. And your "belief in OSAS" obviously wasn't based on biblical facts. If it were, you would have seen those false teachers for what they are; false.

I graduated from taking single verses out of context

OK, you wanna go there? Then provide explanation of how I've taken John 10:28 "out of context". You can't just throw out a charge without backing it up. You have no credibility if you don't provide evidence.

and realized the bigger message by not simply dismissing the verses that don’t support OSAS and actually refute the idea by contemplating how all the scriptures can be true without contradicting each other I came to the realization that the Orthodox Church has kept the message intact since the beginning.

All you've done is reject the absolute plain and clear verses on eternal security for the verses that are WAY LESS clear, usually containing metaphors and figures of speech.

Please give me just one verse that plainly speaks of salvation being lost. I dare you.


I wasn’t before nor am I now too afraid or embarrassed to admit my mistake because what’s most important to me is that I don’t mislead others the way I was misled. I don’t need to be right I need to speak the truth.[/QUOTE]

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh yes the anabaptists which according to Britanica started in the 16th century although some say it was the mid 15th century. So you’d rather believe some crap about a church established 1500 years after the apostles died rather than the ALL of churches we know from the Bible that they actually established? I am utterly without words to express just how absolutely illogical and ridiculous this idea is. The Bible says some will fall away not all. No matter what evidence you are shown neither in the scriptures, the church, or early church father’s writings you still insist on twisting all of these in order to make your ridiculous belief appear to be true. You simply ignore all of the overwhelming evidence stacked against it. Here’s a link to Britanica.com if anyone reading this is interested in the history of the anabaptists. Hopefully this will help others see exactly what your talking about and how preposterous your claim is. Anabaptist | Protestantism

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you really so unaware of the fact that Jews were (and still are) quite proud of being the "chosen"? What were they chosen for? Service to God. And when they persecuted Christians, they thought they were serving God.

John 16:2 - They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

So, in the previous chapter, Jesus was making the point that unless believers are IN fellowship with Him, they will be cut off from SERVICE to God. A horrible thought to orthodox Jews, and Christians.

Again I have also explained that Jesus says in John 15:1-10 to His 11 faithful apostles about 15 times “YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU”!! He is not talking to or about someone else his statements are directed to His apostles. Another futile attempt to distort the truth and twist the scriptures to fit your beliefs.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Simply wrong as well. They teach in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. John 10:28


Which proves that they have always been WRONG.


Oh, I seeeee. The false church's opinions are more valuable than what the actual Greek text SAYS. Sheeeeesh! Well, at least you're being transparent about it.


I believe what Jesus said, over what the false church of the so-called "orthodox" says.


We have churches and teachers even today that teach the horrendous heresy of universalism.

And I have explained the warning of the writers of Scripture of false teaching coming in to the church.

No the church simply has a more comprehensive understanding of what Jesus taught and realize that John 10:28 is contingent on the basis of John 10:27.

You haven’t given any proof that 2 Thessalonians 2:12 is in the aorist tense. You’ve simply claimed that it is.

Who cares what other people teach today that is completely irrelevant. My quotes from Adversus Haereses already refuted universalism and that the church taught universalism.

Yes an I’ve explained how the scriptures don’t say that all of the churches will fall away as your suggesting they did for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No they're not based on biblical facts. Your views are in direct opposition to John 10:28, yet you won't engage with that verse because it clearly refutes your false teaching.

I have and many others here on CF have repeatedly refuted your interpretation of John 10:28 based on verse 27.

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27‬

His sheep FOLLOW Him present tense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh yes the anabaptists which according to Britanica started in the 16th century although some say it was the mid 15th century. So you’d rather believe some crap about a church established 1500 years after the apostles died rather than the ALL of churches we know from the Bible that they actually established?

I stand corrected about their origins. But so what? I never based anything on what they believe. They simply agree with the Bible about infant baptism.

From Wikipedia:
The name Anabaptist means "one who baptizes again". Their persecutors named them this, referring to the practice of baptizing persons when they converted or declared their faith in Christ, even if they had been baptized as infants.[8]Anabaptists required that baptismal candidates be able to make a confession of faith that is freely chosen and so rejected baptism of infants. The early members of this movement did not accept the name Anabaptist, claiming that infant baptism was not part of scripture and was therefore null and void. They said that baptizing self-confessed believers was their first true baptism:

Does the Orthodox church baptize infants, as to the Catholics?

I am utterly without words to express just how absolutely illogical and ridiculous this idea is. The Bible says some will fall away not all.

And I AGREE!! But I reject the notion that "falling away" means losing salvation.

Again, if that were true, then Jesus would HAVE HAD to say this:
"I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY DON'T FALL AWAY, they shall never perish." But did you notice that Jesus never said such a thing.

No matter what evidence you are shown neither in the scriptures, the church, or early church father’s writings you still insist on twisting all of these in order to make your ridiculous belief appear to be true.

You keep repeating this baseless charge, yet provide ZERO evidence that I have twisted anything.

In fact, in order to believe that salvation can be lost, it is YOU and your church that have twisted John 10:28 to mean something other than what Jesus plainly said.

You simply ignore all of the overwhelming evidence stacked against it.

Hilarious. Just read John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again I have also explained that Jesus says in John 15:1-10 to His 11 faithful apostles about 15 times “YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU”!! He is not talking to or about someone else his statements are directed to His apostles.

Where did I ever claim or even suggest that Jesus' words were only to His 11 disciples? Of course His words are for EVERY BELIEVER. And Jesus affirmed their eternal security in John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe bythat name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Another futile attempt to distort the truth and twist the scriptures to fit your beliefs.

Go ahead and continue in your destructive path in direct opposition to what Jesus taught.

btw, have you noticed that I provide Scripture that supports what I claim, unlike yourself?

 

[FreeGrace2]

No the church simply has a more comprehensive understanding of what Jesus taught and realize that John 10:28 is contingent on the basis of John 10:27.

How do you "recognize" a contingent statement? Show me the words that link v.27 with never perishing in v.28.

I'll give you the answer since you see averse to answering questions or providing any evidence for your beliefs and claims.

The contingent word in v.27 is "My sheep". That identifies the "them" and "they" in v.28 as BELIEVERS, since Jesus made clear who is saved back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

With the many verses that say we are saved by faith, we know that Jesus used the metaphor of entering through the gate (Himself) as faith in Himself.

So that's who His sheep ARE. And the rest of v.27 is simply and clearly a description of what His sheep do. There is NOTHING about the list as being conditions for never perishing.

You haven’t given any proof that 2 Thessalonians 2:12 is in the aorist tense. You’ve simply claimed that it is.

I read a lexicon. How else would I know that? I don't make stuff up, as you apparently do.

Who cares what other people teach today that is completely irrelevant.

False teaching is always relevant, whether in the 1st Century or the 21st Century.

My quotes from Adversus Haereses already refuted universalism and that the church taught universalism.

Well good for them. I agree.

Yes an I’ve explained how the scriptures don’t say that all of the churches will fall away as your suggesting they did for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

Why don't you just get over this obsession with "the church"? let's just stay with what the Bible SAYS, ok? that's my focus. I couldn't care less about what any church teaches.

Your focus is misplaced. Forget the "church" and focus on Scripture alone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have and many others here on CF have repeatedly refuted your interpretation of John 10:28 based on verse 27.

lol

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27‬

His sheep FOLLOW Him present tense.

So what? The key is who His sheep are. And v.9 tells us who will be saved. Those who enter through the "gate" (Himself). This is a metaphor for believing in Christ for salvation.

Jesus tells us what His sheep do; listen, and follow. That's all.

Here's a color coded explanation of the point of v.28.

Jesus taught the CAUSE and EFFECT of having (possessing) eternal life.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

The red words are the CAUSE of having eternal life.

The blue words are the EFFECT of having eternal life.

The words are clear enough. Putting them to color is even more clear.

And no one has refuted this explanation. It isn't possible. The words say exactly what I have noted.

In color, no less.

When Jesus said, "I give them eternal life" is He or is He not claiming that He is the CAUSE of having eternal life?

And when He said, "and they shall never perish", is He or is He not claiming that those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

I look forward to your answers to these 2 questions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I stand corrected about their origins. But so what? I never based anything on what they believe. They simply agree with the Bible about infant baptism.

From Wikipedia:
The name Anabaptist means "one who baptizes again". Their persecutors named them this, referring to the practice of baptizing persons when they converted or declared their faith in Christ, even if they had been baptized as infants.[8]Anabaptists required that baptismal candidates be able to make a confession of faith that is freely chosen and so rejected baptism of infants. The early members of this movement did not accept the name Anabaptist, claiming that infant baptism was not part of scripture and was therefore null and void. They said that baptizing self-confessed believers was their first true baptism:

Does the Orthodox church baptize infants, as to the Catholics?


And I AGREE!! But I reject the notion that "falling away" means losing salvation.

Again, if that were true, then Jesus would HAVE HAD to say this:
"I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY DON'T FALL AWAY, they shall never perish." But did you notice that Jesus never said such a thing.


You keep repeating this baseless charge, yet provide ZERO evidence that I have twisted anything.

In fact, in order to believe that salvation can be lost, it is YOU and your church that have twisted John 10:28 to mean something other than what Jesus plainly said.


Hilarious. Just read John 10:28.

To be honest I’m not sure where the Orthodox Church stands on infant baptism. Personally I’m with you on the subject. The Bible says repent and be baptized. Babies can’t repent they have no understanding of the concept. I was baptized when I was about 5 years old and I didn’t experience any life change at all. It wasn’t until I was 39 years old when I was baptized again and did experience a life change but to be honest the change began before I was baptized. Being baptized in the Spirit is not contingent on being baptized by water. I’m sure you are aware that Cornelius and the other Gentiles in his home received the Holy Spirit before being baptized with water. I will say that being baptized is a very wonderful feeling and I think it is best that a person receives it at a time when they can fully appreciate it, understand it, and experience it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where did I ever claim or even suggest that Jesus' words were only to His 11 disciples?

I think you may have misread my post. My point is that Jesus is speaking directly to His apostles telling them that they must abide in Him. Sure His message applies to everyone but the message was directed towards His apostles implying that they must abide and produce fruit. There is no question whether these 11 apostles were believers and yet Jesus warns them to abide and produce fruit otherwise they would be cut off from the vine, wither, and cast into the fire. Their salvation is not secure it is contingent on abiding.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How do you "recognize" a contingent statement? Show me the words that link v.27 with never perishing in v.28.

I'll give you the answer since you see averse to answering questions or providing any evidence for your beliefs and claims.

The contingent word in v.27 is "My sheep". That identifies the "them" and "they" in v.28 as BELIEVERS, since Jesus made clear who is saved back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

With the many verses that say we are saved by faith, we know that Jesus used the metaphor of entering through the gate (Himself) as faith in Himself.

So that's who His sheep ARE. And the rest of v.27 is simply and clearly a description of what His sheep do. There is NOTHING about the list as being conditions for never perishing.


I read a lexicon. How else would I know that? I don't make stuff up, as you apparently do.


False teaching is always relevant, whether in the 1st Century or the 21st Century.


Well good for them. I agree.


Why don't you just get over this obsession with "the church"? let's just stay with what the Bible SAYS, ok? that's my focus. I couldn't care less about what any church teaches.

Your focus is misplaced. Forget the "church" and focus on Scripture alone.

Verse 27 explains the qualities that His sheep currently possess. They hear His voice, they know Him, and they follow. If someone turns away they are not abiding, they are not following, they are not victorious enduring until the end, they are not His sheep. His sheep follow.