2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[Gr8Grace]

Believe is not mentioned in the past tense. It is mentioned in the present tense.

You really need to quit with the Greek stuff if your not even going to look into it.

A quick objective search shows it is in the aorist tense. Any idea what the aorist tense means?
A past COMPLETED action that does not take duration in account.

New International Version
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So all those who have never COMPLETED the action of believing in the past........will be condemned.

ANYONE who has completed the act of believing in the past............Will not be condemned.

So then we have 'believe' in Acts 16:31......Aorist tense. Duration is not taken into account in the aorist tense............The MOMENT one believes, they are saved, It is a past completed action.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Says every worker for salvation.

There aren’t any. This is a straw man argument.

No love of God. No love of His gift.......Just arrogance, pride and love of their working so hard for 'Him'.

Like the apostle Paul who said he’d finished his course (not merely believed he was saved) and a crown was awaiting. Is the kind of believer you mean?

Forget the Cross. Forget the debt HE paid. Forget Him being FORSAKEN by His Father...........I,I,I,I,I,I,I,I,I, did good for 'Him'(don't tell anyone it was all ME.)

Interesting. Those who love Him enough to obey him, you call the above.

But those who supposedly got the gift and think about that only without any word to their self to think of the Giver, you think are superior.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You don't believe anybody has eternal life. Whether they are loving or hateful towards others.

If one believes......they have eternal life.

If one believes and are deceived into thinking eternal life comes at the judgment..........they are not ABIDING in the eternal life they HAVE. A worthless and useless life.

Tell us about the word 'abide' in the verse you use.

There will for sure be those who believed they had eternal life to whom Jesus will say, “go away, I don’t know you.”

Funny how all the parables who address these kinds of things NEVER talk about a reward to those who merely believed and did nothing. The sheep were rewarded for their deeds. The faithful servants for working for the Master (except the one who didn’t think he needed to) and the different kinds of dirt where the only saved one at the end had produced fruit.

Jesus never said to these, “well done, you believed you were saved.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is obvious you don't know what evil is.

Wrong! But you’re OSAS teaching allows you to say untruths and accuse anyone of anything cause you got your eternal security ticket.

It sure seems you believe EVIL gets us into heaven. Because EVIL is our own righteousness.

Wrong, that’s the Eternal Security position.

Christ paid for all, ALL sin.......but He didn't pay for EVIL.......Your self righteous works to get into heaven.

This is interesting. You accuse me of not knowing what evil is and you don’t know that sin is evil.

It seems you guarantee that evil(your self righteous works) gets you into heaven.

I am right. You don’t know what evil is but thinking obeying God and doing good works which He creates for us to do us evil.

 

[JLB777]

It’s very sad how they turn the grace of God into license. They guarantee others Heaven no matter what evil they do. I think it’s sad.

It very sad.

I certainly wouldn’t want to be in their shoes on that Day.


But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:5-8


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


JLB

 

[JLB777]

You don't believe anybody has eternal life.

Please stop twisting what I say.


A brother must have eternal life in them by His Spirit; The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, to be a brother.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


again


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5


I know Him is the definition of eternal life.


Those who claim to have eternal life, yet do not keep His commandments, are liars.

Keeping His commandments is the biblical definition of love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


Those who live in sin, hate God and their brothers.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[JLB777]

If by "brother" you are referring to a person who has believed in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then we know that Jesus gave him eternal life.

Your opinion is worthless in the face of truth.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The doctrine of eternal security does not do that. However, the opposite is blasphemy; by the notion that the salvation that God provides BY GRACE can be lost by works.

Certainly does. You should read the testimonies of those who believed it and went that way. Read Jude ...”grace changers”

And you guys seem to have no clue about it.

Again the
personal insults.

Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life (believers, when they believe) shall never perish.

Where is that verse? He actually said, “he who endures to the end shall be saved.”

Not at all. Jesus makes that claim. Again, He said, in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

But if they themselves don’t endure and decide to leave. He lets them go.

But, obviously, you don't believe what He said. Your view is that any believer who (fill in the blank_________), shall PERISH.

I believe if we love Him we keep his teaching and the Father loves such and makes his home in them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Nonsense

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

That’s me.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


JLB

Thats me

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So, are you really saying that eternal life isn't a free gift?

Didnt Jesus say, “freely you have received....freely give?” Hummm is that mean there is an expectation from Him for those who freely received? Does that mean it’s not free?

Why do you believe that eternal life is earned?

Why do you think I do? When did I say that? Why do you think a man can do whatever sin he wants and will still go to heaven?

No one deserves eternal life, and no one earns it.

Doesn’t mean it can’t be lost/shipwrecked/neglected/etc.

You ever lost a gift someone gave you? Or is it tied to your body so it can never be lost? Is it then still a gift or a burden?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
You don't believe anybody has eternal life.

Please stop twisting what I say.

He isn't. He's responding to what you've already posted.

A brother must have eternal life in them by His Spirit; The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, to be a brother.

How come you have posted that eternal life is received at "the judgment", which obviously be AFTER physical death.

So you need to explain this contradiction in your posts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
If by "brother" you are referring to a person who has believed in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then we know that Jesus gave him eternal life.

Your opinion is worthless in the face of truth.

No, your baseless claims are worthless. Are you trying to say here that Jesus doesn't give believers eternal life, or that "brother" refers to someone who who does something other than believe in Christ for salvation, or what, exactly?

Unlike yourself, I provide verses that support my claims, so they aren't opinions, they are what Scripture says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said: ↑
The doctrine of eternal security does not do that. However, the opposite is blasphemy; by the notion that the salvation that God provides BY GRACE can be lost by works.

Certainly does.

"certainly does"...what? Leads to sin? Please explain how. And refute my claim that the opposite is blasphemy against God's grace.

You should read the testimonies of those who believed it and went that way. Read Jude ...”grace changers”

Please provide specific verses/passages so I can follow your train of thought.

Again the personal insults.

Could you identify what you consider a personal insult?

Where is that verse? He actually said, “he who endures to the end shall be saved.”
But if they themselves don’t endure and decide to leave. He lets them go.

Apparently you forgot to check the context, and what "to the end" actually refers to.

btw, to your question about verse, was that directed to this?

"Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life (believers, when they believe) shall never perish."

Sure. John 5:24 and 6:47 tell us that whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life, and John 10:28 says those Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Why do you believe that eternal life is earned?"

Why do you think I do? When did I say that? Why do you think a man can do whatever sin he wants and will still go to heaven?

For your comment here as well as in previous posts.

What does sinning have to do with going to heaven? Aren't you aware that the whole human race are sinners? And some of them go to heaven.

Why are you making sin an issue, when Jesus Christ completely PAID the sin debt?

Doesn’t mean it can’t be lost/shipwrecked/neglected/etc.

Please provide any verse that supports your opinion here.

You ever lost a gift someone gave you?

Why do you cheapen the reality of eternal life by trying to compare it to some birthday or Christmas gift? Eternal life isn't something you put in your pocket, on your wrist, around your neck. It's LIFE itself. And ETERNAL life. Which is why Jesus said those He gives it to shall never perish.

Why do you argue with Jesus anyway?

Or is it tied to your body so it can never be lost? Is it then still a gift or a burden?

What a ridiculous comment. You've made perfectly clear that you don't agree with Jesus in John 10:28. Why is that? What do you know that He doesn't?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I said: ↑
The doctrine of eternal security does not do that.

And I said it mostly certainly does. Read how real believers fell into deep sin thinking they were secure.

However, the opposite is blasphemy; by the notion that the salvation that God provides BY GRACE can be lost by works.

See how it happens? The “work” of murder or rape or theft or other evils are allowed in your theology. So people can freely do this and less evil and be assured of Heaven, in your view.

"certainly does"...what?

Opens the ability to do evil and feel assured of Heaven.

Leads to sin? Please explain how.

See above.

And refute my claim that the opposite is blasphemy against God's grace.

Jesus says many would fall away from the faith. Was he blaspheming?

Please provide specific verses/passages so I can follow your train of thought.

Jesus says many would fall away from the faith. What more can be offered? Paul talked about particular people who shipwrecked their faith. Do you think it’s nothing?

Could you identify what you consider a personal insult?

“You don’t know ...(insert a noun everyone on earth knows what it is).” That’s mild.

Apparently you forgot to check the context, and what "to the end" actually refers to.

Thats also an insult. When you use “you...” it’s usually an insult.

btw, to your question about verse, was that directed to this?

"Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life (believers, when they believe) shall never perish."

Unless they throw it away for the pleasures of sin.

Sure. John 5:24 and 6:47 tell us that whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life, and John 10:28 says those Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish.

How come Jesus talked about the sheep entering eternal life at judgement?

And I have news for you. One day you will die so since eternal life means one does not die, you don’t have it yet.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And I said it mostly certainly does.

Your opinion is untrue.

Read how real believers fell into deep sin thinking they were secure.

Of course they CAN. And so do those who have no assurance of their salvation. The reason they do is because they finally realize that they CAN'T keep themselves saved or secure. So they end up saying, "what the hell, I'm just going to live it up and have fun while I can". If you aren't aware of that, it's because you are naive.

See how it happens? The “work” of murder or rape or theft or other evils are allowed in your theology.

Don't be so naive. There is no sin that a believer can't do. Jesus didn't die to keep us from sinning, but to pay the penalty for our sin. But it seems you don't know that.

However, there are stern warnings of believers (God's children) to avoid sin. Why? There are several reasons given in Scripture, which you also seem woefully unaware of.

The first reason is that God WILL discipline His children, and Heb 12:11 says it is PAINFUL. So you don't have to worry about anyone "getting away with" anything, which seems to be an obsession with your ilk.

The second reason is that the rewards promised for faithful and obedient service will be FORFEITED (not salvation, as you opine).

Another reason is that only WHEN a believer is in fellowship with the Lord can they bear fruit for Him. I wonder if you have ever even heard of the issue of being either IN or OUT OF fellowship with the Lord?

So you can cease the silliness of claiming that eternal security causes or encourages sin.

So people can freely do this and less evil and be assured of Heaven, in your view.

No, in God's view. Why don't you answer my question about WHY you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28?

I'm going to explain the verse with color coding for ease of following.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are the CAUSE of having eternal life, Jesus Christ Himself.

The blue words are the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is to never perish.

So, that verse is Jesus' statement about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Now, if you still don't agree with Jesus, please explain why you don't, or why you don't agree that 10:28 is about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Opens the ability to do evil and feel assured of Heaven.

Why don't you trust (believe) what Jesus said in John 10:28?

Jesus says many would fall away from the faith. Was he blaspheming?

Why do you falsely assume that "falling away" refers to salvation, rather than falling away from the faith, which is to say, to cease to believe?

Jesus says many would fall away from the faith. What more can be offered?

What do you mean by your question? Since Jesus already died for ALL sin, there is nothing more to offer. And please explain why you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28?

Paul talked about particular people who shipwrecked their faith. Do you think it’s nothing?

No, I think it's horrible. But people do shipwreck their faith. But what Jesus said in John 10:28 still applies. Those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Even though you disagree with Him.

“You don’t know ...(insert a noun everyone on earth knows what it is).” That’s mild.

I try to be mild.

Thats also an insult. When you use “you...” it’s usually an insult.

Well, I AM responding to YOUR post. Is that an insult? Get a grip. Your (no insult) opinion here is just a lot of hypersensitivity, imho.

I said this:
"Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life (believers, when they believe) shall never perish."

You (no insult) responded with this:

Unless they throw it away for the pleasures of sin.

Please show me at least ONE verse that says anyone can "throw away" their salvation or eternal life. Otherwise, just more unsubstantiated opinions.

How come Jesus talked about the sheep entering eternal life at judgement?

Because they will.

How come there are NO verses that tell us that sheep can become goats?

And I have news for you. One day you will die so since eternal life means one does not die, you don’t have it yet.

Really? Are you (no insult) really not aware of the difference between physical life and eternal life?

You (no insult) are more naive than I thought.

The Bible clearly tells us this:
Heb 9:27 - Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Do you (no insult) think this refers to spiritual death or physical death?

 

[Gr8Grace]

Please stop twisting what I say.

So stop twisting what you say. You say we don't have eternal life until the judgement.

Then in the next breath ask us to explain how someone doesn't have eternal now.

Your twisting.......not me.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Wrong!

Why so insulting?

Wrong,

Why so insulting?

You accuse me

Why so insulting?

I am right. You don’t know what evil is

Why so insulting?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did you even research a lexicon for the Greek word. It is in the AORIST TENSE, not present tense.

I have an interlinear that reads this way:
in order that may be judged all the [ones] not having believed the truth but having had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The aorist tense is the Greek equivalent to the English past tense.

I’ve already shown the word for word translation. Nothing indicates that believing is past tense. You said abiding is important but not necessary. If you really want to know the truth about the Greek lexicon I suggest you speak to some of the Orthodox brothers we have here and see what they have to say on the subject. I’m sure your aware the Orthodox Church is somewhat of an authority on Greek interpretation of scripture. I’m also sure you will reject their interpretation because I believe you are too blinded by pride my friend. I’m also certain that you are aware that no church ever taught eternal security until the mid 15th century. Eternal security suggests that all of Christianity was incorrect for the first 1500+ years. None of the early church fathers taught eternal security. As I’ve pointed out Jesus said many will turn away from him but those who are vicious and endure to the end will be saved. To think that someone can believe then later doubt and renounce their faith and still be saved is a very skewed interpretation of the scriptures. Jesus is not just the Way to life He is a Way of life. When we abide in Him He abides in us. If we don’t abide in Him He does not abide in us and there is no salvation without Him. This is what Jesus taught His 11 faithful apostles the night before He was crucified and it is what all of Christianity has taught for the first 1500 years.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You really need to quit with the Greek stuff if your not even going to look into it.

A quick objective search shows it is in the aorist tense. Any idea what the aorist tense means?
A past COMPLETED action that does not take duration in account.

New International Version
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So all those who have never COMPLETED the action of believing in the past........will be condemned.

ANYONE who has completed the act of believing in the past............Will not be condemned.

So then we have 'believe' in Acts 16:31......Aorist tense. Duration is not taken into account in the aorist tense............The MOMENT one believes, they are saved, It is a past completed action.

Lol please ask some of the Orthodox brothers and sisters what the Orthodox Church says on this matter. I’m sure you already know their position. I’m also sure you are aware that the Orthodox Church is an expert at Greek scripture translation. They wrote it.