2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[JLB777]

Listen to Scripture:
Matt 13:10,13
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Yes, as you yourself have admitted, you don't understand the parables, even when He explains them, which means - Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’


Repent, and turn to God of your heresies and He will heal you.


Yes "them". To "them" were spoken parable, but to His people He explained.


And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.



Please tell me what it is that we must have, for more to be given?



For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Matthew 13:12




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, as you yourself have admitted, you don't understand the parables, even when He explains them, which means

Which means your comment here is just dishonest. When will you ever decide to be honest?

I pointed out WHY Jesus spoke in parables, and that even His own disciples didn't understand them and Jesus had to explain His parables to them.

Consider John 16 -
23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.
29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.
30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”

But, the question is: do you even understand this passage?

I have clearly explained that Jesus taught about both the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28, and even color coded it so that my points could be followed easily.

And you never even tried to refute the points.

My points stand as truth. Your claims about v.27 are false.

 

[JLB777]

Which means your comment here is just dishonest. When will you ever decide to be honest?

I pointed out WHY Jesus spoke in parables, and that even His own disciples didn't understand them and Jesus had to explain His parables to them.

Consider John 16 -
23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.
29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.
30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”

But, the question is: do you even understand this passage?

I have clearly explained that Jesus taught about both the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28, and even color coded it so that my points could be followed easily.

And you never even tried to refute the points.

My points stand as truth. Your claims about v.27 are false.

Here is what you said about the parables.

I've already given the biblical reason why Jesus used parables. They weren't designed to be understood.

If you don't understand what Jesus taught then why are you trying to teach what Jesus taught?




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you don't understand what Jesus taught then why are you trying to teach what Jesus taught?

Nice try at your never-ending distractions. Why did Jesus' own disciples need to have them explained?

But, back to reality here. I've given you 2 verses that tell us who will be condemned:

"Those who have NOT believed".

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you comprehend what 'have not believed' means. It means 'never have believed'.

So much for your abusing the "present tense" believing.

The Bible says nothing about those who used to believe, in spite of your insistence that those who used to believe, but no longer do, will perish.

In fact, Jesus was extremely clear. Those He has given eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Prior to that verse, Jesus made extremely clear WHEN one received eternal life:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

And don't forget what John wrote:

1 John 5:11, 13-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But you have insisted that one does not have eternal life until "the judgment".

So your opinions are in direct contradiction to what the Bible says so clearly.

Eternal life is given WHEN one believes. And from that moment, the promise of John 10:28 applies.

That's why ONLY those who have not believed will be condemned (perish), per John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

It appears you are way more interested in your own opinions than the truth of Scripture.

How sad.

 

[JLB777]

Nice try at your never-ending distractions. Why did Jesus' own disciples need to have them explained?

But, back to reality here. I've given you 2 verses that tell us who will be condemned:

"Those who have NOT believed".

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you comprehend what 'have not believed' means. It means 'never have believed'.

So much for your abusing the "present tense" believing.

The Bible says nothing about those who used to believe, in spite of your insistence that those who used to believe, but no longer do, will perish.

In fact, Jesus was extremely clear. Those He has given eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Prior to that verse, Jesus made extremely clear WHEN one received eternal life:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

And don't forget what John wrote:

1 John 5:11, 13-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But you have insisted that one does not have eternal life until "the judgment".

So your opinions are in direct contradiction to what the Bible says so clearly.

Eternal life is given WHEN one believes. And from that moment, the promise of John 10:28 applies.

That's why ONLY those who have not believed will be condemned (perish), per John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

It appears you are way more interested in your own opinions than the truth of Scripture.

How sad.

It’s a simple question Freegrace, can you answer it?


If you don't understand what Jesus taught then why are you trying to teach what Jesus taught?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

It’s a simple question Freegrace, can you answer it?


If you don't understand what Jesus taught then why are you trying to teach what Jesus taught?
JLB

I've already explained it thoroughly. Apparently it went over your head.

How about addressing my previous post #184 and deal with the verses I QUOTED and try to prove how my claims aren't supported by the verses I QUOTED.

That would be something new.

 

[JLB777]

I've already explained it thoroughly. Apparently it went over your head.

How about addressing my previous post #184 and deal with the verses I QUOTED and try to prove how my claims aren't supported by the verses I QUOTED.

That would be something new.

You have explained nothing, but the fact that you are too immature to understand the truth of Jesus words.


He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8


Only those who overcome will inherit the kingdom of God.

Only those who overcome will be called sons of God.



Those Christians who sin, and live immoral lives because they believed the lie of false doctrine will have their part in the lake of fire.


Christians who are liars shall have their part in the lake of fire.

Christians who are cowardly and renounce Christ in the face of persecution will have their part in the lake of fire.


Christians who are abominable, idolaters, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, and they like, will have their part in the lake of fire.



Can you understand these words?




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have explained nothing, but the fact that you are too immature to understand the truth of Jesus words.

Quite pathetic. And you know better. The fact is, you know you are unable to refute my explanations, so you resort to ad hominems to cover that fact.

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8

Let's be clear about this "list" of sins. The FIRST 2 are about unbelief. The word "cowardly" or sometimes called "fearful". It refers to a lack of trusting faith. In fact, this is the word used by Jesus in Mark 4:40 - "why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?".

So, the verse clearly isn't a list of specific sins that will keepl anyone out of heaven, as you seem to insinuate, but a description of those who HAVE NEVER BELIEVED.

Which is what this thread is about, from 2 Thess 2:12 and you've NEVER shown otherwise.

Only those who overcome will inherit the kingdom of God.

Correct.

Only those who overcome will be called sons of God.

Quite incorrect.

This is what the Bible, not you, says:

Matt 5:9 - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Rom 8:14 - For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith,

So, in order to agree that the Bible isn't contradicting itself, we KNOW that "peacemakers" and those "led by the Spirit" are those who have faith in Christ.

Any other explanation simply is an argument that Scripture is contradicted.

Those Christians who sin, and live immoral lives because they believed the lie of false doctrine will have their part in the lake of fire.

We all know there are NO VERSES that repeat your opinion here. Where is the Scripture? Your opinion doesn't count.

Christians who are liars shall have their part in the lake of fire.

Since Christ died for all sins of all humans, there is NO sin that results in the lake of fire.

btw, you've made some very FALSE statements related to my views. So if you insist on your own opinion, your own statement condemns yourself.

Christians who are cowardly and renounce Christ in the face of persecution will have their part in the lake of fire.

Please quote any verse that says this nonsense.

In John 10:28, Jesus DIDN'T say:
I give them eternal life, and IF THEY DON'T BECOME COWARDLY AND RENOUNCE ME, they shall never perish.

Nor did He say:
I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY DON'T BECOME COWARDLY AND RENOUNCE ME, they shall never perish.

But you don't pay attention to what Jesus actually said, do you.

Christians who are abominable, idolaters, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, and they like, will have their part in the lake of fire.

More unsubstantiated opinions, all of which simply go in opposition to what the Savior taught in John 10:28.

Can you understand these words?

Yes, I certainly DO understand that your opinions are in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ. You are without excuse.

Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 speak of condemnation for those who have not believed. This cannot refer to former believers, those who used to believe. For they HAVE believed at one time.

And there are no exceptions in Scripture about former believers headed for hell.

That's just your opinionated conjecture and construct. iow, a man made doctrine.

 

[JLB777]

Quite pathetic. And you know better. The fact is, you know you are unable to refute my explanations, so you resort to ad hominems to cover that fact.


Let's be clear about this "list" of sins. The FIRST 2 are about unbelief. The word "cowardly" or sometimes called "fearful". It refers to a lack of trusting faith. In fact, this is the word used by Jesus in Mark 4:40 - "why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?".

So, the verse clearly isn't a list of specific sins that will keepl anyone out of heaven, as you seem to insinuate, but a description of those who HAVE NEVER BELIEVED.

Which is what this thread is about, from 2 Thess 2:12 and you've NEVER shown otherwise.


Correct.


Quite incorrect.

This is what the Bible, not you, says:

Matt 5:9 - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Rom 8:14 - For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith,

So, in order to agree that the Bible isn't contradicting itself, we KNOW that "peacemakers" and those "led by the Spirit" are those who have faith in Christ.

Any other explanation simply is an argument that Scripture is contradicted.


We all know there are NO VERSES that repeat your opinion here. Where is the Scripture? Your opinion doesn't count.


Since Christ died for all sins of all humans, there is NO sin that results in the lake of fire.

btw, you've made some very FALSE statements related to my views. So if you insist on your own opinion, your own statement condemns yourself.


Please quote any verse that says this nonsense.

In John 10:28, Jesus DIDN'T say:
I give them eternal life, and IF THEY DON'T BECOME COWARDLY AND RENOUNCE ME, they shall never perish.

Nor did He say:
I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY DON'T BECOME COWARDLY AND RENOUNCE ME, they shall never perish.

But you don't pay attention to what Jesus actually said, do you.


More unsubstantiated opinions, all of which simply go in opposition to what the Savior taught in John 10:28.


Yes, I certainly DO understand that your opinions are in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ. You are without excuse.

Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 speak of condemnation for those who have not believed. This cannot refer to former believers, those who used to believe. For they HAVE believed at one time.

And there are no exceptions in Scripture about former believers headed for hell.

That's just your opinionated conjecture and construct. iow, a man made doctrine.

It’s clear to all that the reason you won’t post scripture, but rather you just state your opinion and tag it with a scripture reference is you simply don’t understand the words of Christ.

As He said -


For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mathew 13:12

even what he has will be taken away from him.​

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

It’s clear to all that the reason you won’t post scripture, but rather you just state your opinion and tag it with a scripture reference is you simply don’t understand the words of Christ.

You are just so dishonest. I quoted 7 verses and cited another. Your response is pathetic.

As He said -

For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mathew 13:12

even what he has will be taken away from him.[/QUOTE]
I wonder how you would explain all my great blessings.

You've been completely refuted by so many verses, none of which you even acknowledge.

That isn't Christian behavior, by any means.

Facts that you cannot refute:

1. eternal life is possessed by those who believe. Meaning, WHEN they believe.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11, 13-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

2. Those given eternal life WHEN they believe shall never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

5 verses quoted. Instead of proving your theory that none of these verses addresses eternal security, you just ignore them.

Convenient, but pathetic.

 

[JLB777]

2. Those given eternal life WHEN they believe shall never perish.

No where found in scripture.


When we believe we are joined to Him and are one spirit with Him through faith.

We now are one spirit with the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

As long as we remain in Him, we remain joined to the eternal life that is found only in Him.


If we become seperated from Him, we become seperated from the eternal life that is in Him, because we are no longer joined to Him.


That is why a sheep who wanders from Him is called lost.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Is a believer who is cast into the fire and burned still saved?


again



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:3-7


Do the lost need salvation?




JLB

 

[JLB777]

You are just so dishonest. I quoted 7 verses and cited another. Your response is pathetic.

As He said -

For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mathew 13:12

even what he has will be taken away from him.

I wonder how you would explain all my great blessings.

You've been completely refuted by so many verses, none of which you even acknowledge.

That isn't Christian behavior, by any means.

Facts that you cannot refute:

1. eternal life is possessed by those who believe. Meaning, WHEN they believe.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11, 13-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

2. Those given eternal life WHEN they believe shall never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

5 verses quoted. Instead of proving your theory that none of these verses addresses eternal security, you just ignore them.

Convenient, but pathetic.[/QUOTE]


The promise of not being snatched from His hand is to those who hear [and obey] His Voice so that they follow Him.


Those who hear for a while then wander away and become lost are sinners: unreconciled to Him just as an unbeliever.


All the human reasoning in the world, will not change the words of Jesus Christ.



A lost person is needs salvation: repentance and reconciliation with God: Justification; being declared right with God.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A person who is lost - Needs to repent in order to be reconciled with God through Christ Jesus, in which they are justified.

A person who is lost - Is a sinner.


A sinner is someone who is separate from Christ. Hebrews 7:26



Jesus makes it clear that we must remain connected to Him in relationship; joined to Him as a branch is connected to the vine from which it draws it's life from, or we will wither.


Those who are separated from Christ, are separated from the eternal life that is only found in Christ Jesus.




If a lost sheep doesn't repent and return to God they will remain lost forever; death, die, perish



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"2. Those given eternal life WHEN they believe shall never perish."

No where found in scripture.

Sure is. Your denial changes nothing.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11,13-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Jn 5:24, 6:47, and 1 Jn 5:13 are in the present tense, and that means eternal life is PRESENT POSSESSION for those who believe, and 1 Jn 5:11 is in the aorist tense, which indicates an action that has already occurred, just like our past tense.

So these verses PROVE that eternal life is a present possession of those who believe.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse is clear; those given eternal life (which is believers per the above verses) shall never perish.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Peter, unlike yourself, listened to and believed what Jesus said. While Jesus said those given eternal life shall never perish, Peter said believers have been born again of imperishable seed.

So, both were referring to the same thing. Once belief, shall never perish.

What hasn't been proven yet is that once salvation, CAN perish.

The claim is hollow.

When we believe we are joined to Him and are one spirit with Him through faith.

And that union with Christ is permanent, as indicated in Eph 1:13,14-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Are you prepared to argue that God may not keep His guarantee of our inheritance until our redemption? That sure would be stupid.

We now are one spirit with the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

And it's permanent, as the above verses plainly say.

As long as we remain in Him, we remain joined to the eternal life that is found only in Him.

No scripture. Just unsubstantiated opinion, which is contary to God's Word.

If we become seperated from Him, we become seperated from the eternal life that is in Him, because we are no longer joined to Him.

No scripture again. Your opinions have no support from Scripture.

That is why a sheep who wanders from Him is called lost.

No, you're just desperate to mix parables and metaphors to try to prop up your opinions.

Even when a sheep is lost, the sheep still belongs to the shepherd, and you have not, because you cannot, prove otherwise.

Does a lost sheep become someone else's sheep? Use Scripture to prove it.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

No mention of hell, or the lake of fire. Just a brush fire. So what? Since the verses I've just provided again prove that our union with Christ is permanent, all you do by quoting John 15:6 is demonstrate your failure to properly divide the Word of Truth. That means you're not an approved workman, per 2 Tim 2:15.

You need more study. A lot more.

Is a believer who is cast into the fire and burned still saved?

Actually, there is no verse about a believer being cast into any fire and losing salvation.

And, that reminds me of a verse that DOES speak of a believer and fire:

1 Cor 3:14,15-
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

So, unapproved workman, please provide an explanation of the red words; how one can "suffer loss" though "through the flames" but "YET WILL BE SAVED".

again
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:3-7

Your metaphors prove only that you are unable to rightly divide the Word of Truth. These verses aren't even about salvation.

Do the lost need salvation?

Do sheep need salvation? Do sheep have a soul? Can you answer these questions, that are derived from your argument?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What follows is a direct quote from a previous post to him, but he failed to properly use the quotes.

You've been completely refuted by so many verses, none of which you even acknowledge.
Yep, that's what I've been telling you for a very long time.

That isn't Christian behavior, by any means.

Facts that you cannot refute:

1. eternal life is possessed by those who believe. Meaning, WHEN they believe.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11, 13-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

2. Those given eternal life WHEN they believe shall never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

5 verses quoted. Instead of proving your theory that none of these verses addresses eternal security, you just ignore them.

Convenient, but pathetic.

Yeah, that's what I said. With proof from Scripture. Which JLB continues to ignore.

The promise of not being snatched from His hand is to those who hear [and obey] His Voice so that they follow Him.

Once again he proves his inability to read 2 verses properly. The promise of not being snatched from His hand is found in v.28a, not anywhere from v.27, which is merely a description of His sheep, and NOT conditions of anything.

Those who hear for a while then wander away and become lost are sinners: unreconciled to Him just as an unbeliever.

And he continues to fail to provide any verse that speaks of any believer who has become lost. And since 2 Cor 5:19 says clearly that God was reconciling the WORLD in Christ, he has no basis for claiming that any believer who wanders away from the faith becomes "unreconciled". Everyone in the world as reconciled to God in Christ.

All the human reasoning in the world, will not change the words of Jesus Christ.

But, amazingly, he continues to reject the plain words of Scripture and relies on his own unsubstantiated opinion.

A lost person is needs salvation: repentance and reconciliation with God: Justification; being declared right with God.

And once a person believes, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that they won't be condemned. How those verses actually word it is that "those who have not believed shall be condemned". This eliminates ALL who have ever believed, regardless of what occurs after that.

But he just can't stand the thought of a wandering saved, justified, forgiven, born again person still getting into heaven. It offends his self righteous and graceless attitude.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

He's never shown that Jesus here was equating sheep with believers who cease to believe. In fact, even in the parable of the soils, Jesus DIDN'T even suggest that those who believe for a while and then fall away lose salvation. They simply don't produce fruit.

A person who is lost - Is a sinner.

A person who has believed on the Lord Jesus is also a sinner.

1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Note the present tense here. Paul didn't say "of whom I USED TO BE the worst".

Getting saved doesn't render the believer sinless. Maybe JLB thinks so.

A sinner is someone who is separate from Christ. Hebrews 7:26

No, that would be someone who never believed and therefore never sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14

Jesus makes it clear that we must remain connected to Him in relationship; joined to Him as a branch is connected to the vine from which it draws it's life from, or we will wither.

JLB continues to fail to properly divide the Word of Truth regarding metaphors.

John 15:6 is about bearing fruit. One must be in fellowship in order to bear fruit. Those out of fellowship cannot bear fruit.

Those who are separated from Christ, are separated from the eternal life that is only found in Christ Jesus.

JLB has NEVER shown from Scripture that a person sealed with the Holy Spirit can be unsealed or taken out of union with Christ.

If a lost sheep doesn't repent and return to God they will remain lost forever; death, die, perish

Rubbish.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11,13-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Jn 5:24, 6:47, and 1 Jn 5:13 are in the present tense, and that means eternal life is PRESENT POSSESSION for those who believe, and 1 Jn 5:11 is in the aorist tense, which indicates an action that has already occurred, just like our past tense.

So these verses PROVE that eternal life is a present possession of those who believe.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse is clear; those given eternal life (which is believers per the above verses) shall never perish.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Gr8Grace]

But he just can't stand the thought of a wandering saved, justified, forgiven, born again person still getting into heaven. It offends his self righteous and graceless attitude.

Amen.

Matt 23:13~~New International Version
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

And even worse, with this endless list of self righteousness,enduring for eternal life, enduring in belief, enduring in every subjective thing(traveling land and sea) a person can think of for gaining eternal life:

New International Version
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

I pray JLB can see it someday.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Amen.

Matt 23:13~~New International Version
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

And even worse, with this endless list of self righteousness,enduring for eternal life, enduring in belief, enduring in every subjective thing(traveling land and sea) a person can think of for gaining eternal life:

New International Version
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

I pray JLB can see it someday.

It seems he just doesn't want to.

 

[JLB777]

Sure is. Your denial changes nothing.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11,13-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

As long as you are in Christ, that is to say, as long as you have Christ, you have eternal life, because you are joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him.


However, if you should depart from Him, by departing from the faith; no longer believing in Him, then you no longer have Christ, because you have chosen to transgress His doctrine, His teaching, His word, which is all about love.

• In Christ = Eternal Life
• Disconnected from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned.

There are many many scriptures throughout the new testament that teach us this, which you have chosen to ignore.


Here is just one, the only one that is needed to completely wreck your whole false theology.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



Please explain how a brother in Christ can hate his brother and still have eternal life abiding in him?





JLB

 

[JLB777]

Once again he proves his inability to read 2 verses properly. The promise of not being snatched from His hand is found in v.28a, not anywhere from v.27, which is merely a description of His sheep, and NOT conditions of anything.

Again, the promise of verse 28, is conditional upon verse 27.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


How long does a person have to follow Christ, before He gives then eternal life?




JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



Please explain how a brother in Christ can hate his brother and still have eternal life abiding in him?

One cannot explain that. A brother who hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him......But he is still a brother, a saved, Justified, born-again Christian.

A brother who hates his brother enough to say that they can/might perish and does not have eternal life is not ABIDING in Him....... And Is a murderer of the worst kind. Thank God He said they will Never perish..........IF, They have ever trusted in Christ alone.

 

[Gr8Grace]

It seems he just doesn't want to.

Your to kind. He doesn't want to. Truth has been presented so often, that it is to the point that it is rejected knowingly..........a bad, very,very,very bad place to be.