2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
A person who is born again does not fear the light because they do what is right. Like I said pisteuo also implies obedience.

Like I explained, no, it doesn't. And your post didn't prove otherwise. As I showed.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

I quoted:
"2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

BCsenior said:
This post certainly won't be instructive to you, that's for sure ... but, it may be for someone else!

This verse does NOT state what happens to those
who fall away from the faith, fall from grace,
draw back to perdition, etc.

Why would it need or have to? The verse is quite clear as is.

Those who WILL be condemned are those who never believed. Period.

Real simple.

Because of all the many dire warnings in the NT
(which include the red), it has been determined
by some that "believe" must be referring to ...
True saving belief = deep heart belief,
enduring faith, enduring trust, and obedience.

As with some other Greek words, the secular "pisteou"
means something somewhat different in Christianity.

No it doesn't. That's just a bogus claim.

There is no one word that the translators
could have used to portray the blue above!

Your attempt at "explanation" is simply to try to get the Bible to say something it does not say.

What the Bible says is that those who have not believed (means NEVER) will be condemned.

But the OSNAS ilk (that's your crowd) claims that if a believer ceases to believe, they will be condemned. And all without ANY verse that says that.

What your crowd doesn't have is any evidence from Scripture that says what you believe.

And your point about what pisteou means simply misses the point. The point is that it is those who HAVE NOT BELIEVED that will be condemned.

So, regardless of how you want to define "believe", doesn't matter. If you accept that believing results in salvation (you'd better, because the Bible makes that crystal clear), then you have to admit that those who will be condemned are those who HAVE NOT BELIEVED.

Here's the point. Every saved person HAS BELIEVED.

So it cannot be said of them that they HAVE NOT BELIEVED, since they DID.

So, therefore, only those who HAVE NOT BELIEVED (HAVE NEVER BELIEVED) will be condemned.

BNR32FAN · Nov 14, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, it was Paul who wrote that. And he wrote 3 parallel passages on that subject; in 1 Cor 6, Gal 5 and Eph 5. In the first 2 passages, he used the phrase "will not inherit the kingdom", which the OSNAS ilk assume means "won't get in the kingdom". However, Paul used a different phrase in the Eph 5 passage; "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

So, because all 3 passsages are parallel, the 2 phrases are equivalent. Therefore, "not inherit the kingdom" means the same thing as "have no inheritance in the kingdom".

what both phrases absolutely DO NOT MEAN is "won't get in the kingdom".

What they both mean is that those believers who live according to the lifestyles noted in all 3 passages will have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

iow, they WILL BE IN the kingdom, but just not have any inheritance in the kingdom.

Compare those verses to this

“Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:27‬

I believe Paul meant exactly that no one who practices these sins will enter heaven.

LightLoveHope · Nov 14, 2018

"irrevocable"

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Rom 11:29

Paul uses the argument about Israel that because the nation has been called by God they will be grafted back in to the vine though they are rejected through unbelief.

And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:23

Paul is saying they will return, because God will call the nation back, but there is no certainty for the individual unless the persist in belief.

So even here the irrevocable call is still conditional on belief.
So the call to faith can be real and the response is real, but if abandoned so is their salvation.

BNR32FAN · Nov 14, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
In v.28 we see the CAUSE of having eternal life; Jesus Christ Himself who gives it.

And we see the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is never perishing.

Did you notice that there are NO CONDITIONS listed between the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life?

I don’t see the “cause” of eternal life in verse 28. I see Jesus saying I give unto THEM (referring to His previously mentioned sheep, those who hear and follow in the present tense) eternal life and THEY (those same previously mentioned sheep) will never perish. Not those who heard and followed but those who currently hear and follow. Hence John 15:1-10 abide in Me.

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬

BNR32FAN · Nov 14, 2018

I am glad to see that the majority of Christians replying to this thread do not subscribe to FG2’s ideas about salvation.

LightLoveHope · Nov 14, 2018

Why the fascination with the lost and who is lost?

It is like a athlete being concerned with those who are just learning how to run.
If you do not run the race you will never win.
If you never start you will never finish.
If you start and give up, then what was the point of starting.

The reason why the apostles answered the question because false teachers arose,
some looked strong and then fell away, others back slid and returned.

Is sin the enemy of the Kingdom and God? If the answer is yes, then staying in sin is
lethal.
Is unbelief the enemy of the Kingdom and God? If the answer is yes, then not having
belief is lethal.
Is Gods promises to transform rebellious sinners into perfect saints without their
cooperation part of the Kingdom or in scripture at all? No.

So it appears we must walk righteously and have faith in Christ to be saved.
The problem is people who claim faith yet want to say God will save the rebellious and
without faith, forcing them into the Kingdom.

No parable by Jesus has this story line, rather the opposite. All servants choose to put
effort in and use their time well. The apostles teach walking in the fruit of the Spirit is
life and walking in the passions of the world and flesh is death. Again choice is involved.

There is a grey area around transformation, consistency, maturity, growth, but Jesus simply
says His sheep will listen and follow, the elect will stand firm. And He will not disturb the
process as it will cause problems for the elect. It is really that obvious and simple.

It is why I wonder how anyone unless they are actively deluded and not led by the Holy
Spirit can come to any other conclusion.

Just show one parable of Jesus saying He forces rebellious sinners into the Kingdom and
not kicks them out, as aliens doomed to judgement.

LightLoveHope · Nov 14, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Like I explained, no, it doesn't. And your post didn't prove otherwise. As I showed.

I find this kind of comment miss-leading.

Emotional context is everything. When my son was little, if he got upset, one look from us and we would know. We would be there and help him through.

Spending time with Jesus, hearing His words in response to those around Him changes how we see Him, gives meaning and substance to His parables and His heart. It is the whole that matters, the balanced positions, the care between dealing with lost sinners who have one hope, to listen to Jesus, and being lost, unwound into a place of darkness and lostness.

His approach to Judas the betrayer is most telling. He knew what Judas would do, and he left him alone, indicated to the apostles He knew but never openly said, and let it all unroll.
Nothing is without Gods involvement and hand. He uses everything, literally for His purposes. As His child we just need to know He loves us and will help us through. Live or die it does not matter because in Him we will never perish.

So we can never show those who do not see what they do not see, or make those whose hearts are hard sensitive to the whisper of God to them, speak truth. They talk with certainty when the Lord shows balance, they talk of black and white when only at the end does it become clear.

Jesus's way always puts love simply at the top. Amen.

LightLoveHope · Nov 14, 2018

How are we saved?
By becoming.
Does a prophet who answers the call but disobeys, is he spared? No.

How fragile are we in Christ?
Paul put it like this

But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:20-22

Peter puts it like this
Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
2 Peter 2:2-9

So how is it people are so arrogant, so pompous that they defeated and bound in sin would stand even if they have lost their faith? There is nothing but delusion to support such an idea, except taking the fantastic support Jesus offers while despising its warnings and intent.

LightLoveHope · Nov 14, 2018

Is our walk full of boldness and assertive belief we are the elect?
to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, Phil 2:12
And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling. 2 Cor 7:15
I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 1 Cor 2:3
Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. Rom 11:20
We are a people who are careful, because we serve a patient loving Lord, whose tendency is for forgiveness where He can, but is just and true when angry and brings judgement that cannot be
withstood.

Pauls example to us
By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you--I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2 Cor 10:1

Jesus desire for our approach to life

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Matt 5:3-9

Anger, arrogance, disrespect, abuse, putting others down are not His ways.
It is clear though we have people who wish to teach us Gods ways, and wish to tell
us how to read our bibles, and what we should believe and how to believe, which
teacher to listen to and which to ignore.

I think their fruit tells us more than they can imagine who and what they are.

LightLoveHope · Nov 14, 2018

If salvation was sinners entering heaven as rubber stamped sinners under a cloth, not of there choosing or will, there would be no earth only heaven and we would all be there.

The whole point is it is hard, Jesus said it is impossible. He said we have to die. Not agree we need help, sign on the line of a contract, but die to this world or we will be judged as part of the world.

People lie about easy believism while preaching it. Of course they do, because they want to do nothing. And the enemy is subtle. Use doctrine pulled a bit here, diluted, take the promises and give them to sinners, keeping them assured they are safe and the evil sin preachers will not get them. Ironic that those who ignore sin preach it, and those who show sin kills save people from it.

This war is very real, and the deluded are just that. But the Holy Spirit will defend the Lord and His word through us. The lost are blind to Gods word which is why they are lost, because if they could see they would be saved. If you wonder where people are, ask about the cross and what it means to them. You will be amazed at what people say and do. Praise the Lord, many will listen and change. Amen. Thank you Jesus. Guide our hearts into you word and love, in Jesus's Name, amen.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Compare those verses to this

“Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:27‬

I believe Paul meant exactly that no one who practices these sins will enter heaven.

Actually, no unbeliever will be allowed to enter heaven.

But i proved that the 2 phrases are equivalent and mean the same thing. Believers who are guilty of the lifestyles listed will have no inheritance (reward) in heaven.

It appears that you STILL do not believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

Why is that? What do you know that He doesn't?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
"irrevocable"

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Rom 11:29

Paul uses the argument about Israel that because the nation has been called by God they will be grafted back in to the vine though they are rejected through unbelief.

And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:23

Paul is saying they will return, because God will call the nation back, but there is no certainty for the individual unless the persist in belief.

So even here the irrevocable call is still conditional on belief.
So the call to faith can be real and the response is real, but if abandoned so is their salvation.

Bottom line: eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and the gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Those are facts.

And what Paul said about God's gifts align perfectly with what Jesus said in John 10:28.

And what Peter said in 1 Pet 1:23.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

I said:
"In v.28 we see the CAUSE of having eternal life; Jesus Christ Himself who gives it.

And we see the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is never perishing.

Did you notice that there are NO CONDITIONS listed between the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life?"

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t see the “cause” of eternal life in verse 28.

I didn't say "the cause of eternal life". ever.

I said "the cause of HAVING eternal life." Every time.

Do you see the difference? One needs to read carefully before they respond to the posts of others. You're not reading carefully.

The cause of HAVING or POSSESSING eternal life is Jesus Christ. Because He is the One who GIVES it.

I see Jesus saying I give unto THEM (referring to His previously mentioned sheep, those who hear and follow in the present tense) eternal life

Yes, by Jesus saying "I give them eternal life", we see that He Himself is the CAUSE of those who HAVE or POSSESS eternal life.

and THEY (those same previously mentioned sheep) will never perish.

And this statement is the EFFECT of HAVING or POSSESSING eternal life.

Not those who heard and followed but those who currently hear and follow.

Where in the world do you get this? There is NOTHING in v.28 about having to currently hear and follow that shall never perish.

It seems you are having difficulty with the English language. Don't you recognize how conditional sentences are worded? Seems not.

v.28 is crystal clear. Those he gives eternal life, which we KNOW is WHEN they believe, from John 5:24, 6:47, 1 Jn 5:11 and 13, shall never perish.

The "shall never perish" phrase is future tense. All based on being given eternal life.

You just can't get around the clear wording. As much as you are trying.

btw, note the tense in 1 Jn 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Do you recognize the tense of the red words. Past. So, all who have believed HAVE BEEN GIVEN eternal life.

So John 10:28 is a promise of eternal security FROM THE MOMENT one believes.

Hence John 15:1-10 abide in Me.

Hence, nothing. John 15 is about a reciprocal relationship, which is about fellowship.

No believer can bear fruit when they are out of fellowship with the Lord.

Likewise, only the believer who is in fellowship can bear fruit.

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬

It's read sad to see that you STILL don't believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish.

Your twisting of John 15 has Jesus contradicting Himself.

It's just real sad that you don't seem to recognize what your argument leads to.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I am glad to see that the majority of Christians replying to this thread do not subscribe to FG2’s ideas about salvation.

Oh, I see. Christianity by democracy. Right.

"All in favor of this theology, raise right hand".

"Now, all in favor of that theology, raise right hand."

Is that how you determine your theology?

I determine my theology by what the Bible SAYS. Not by who votes for what.

Pitiful.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I find this kind of comment miss-leading.

Emotional context is everything.

Only for the emotional and subjective people. Not for objective people.

Live or die it does not matter because in Him we will never perish.

I find your statements regarding eternal security to be rather unstable. At times, you say this above, which is eternal security, but at other times, your statements indicate that you believe that believers CAN perish.

This is typical of emotional and subjective people. They are (no offense) unstable. Which is because they are driven by their emotions, which you've admitted.

Jesus's way always puts love simply at the top. Amen.

Could you define what you think "love" means in the Bible?

Thanks.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
How are we saved?
By becoming.

Huh? And very subjective. One could put nearly anything in after the "becoming" part and feel good about it.

Again, this is the danger of emotions and subjectivity. No facts.

No, NO ONE gets saved by becoming. That isn't even a complete sentence. Or a complete thought.

So, you need to to put more thought (and less emotion) into it.

How fragile are we in Christ?

See? Now you've swung back to no security, because of your subjective emotions.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Is our walk full of boldness and assertive belief we are the elect?
to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, Phil 2:12
And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling. 2 Cor 7:15
I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 1 Cor 2:3
Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. Rom 11:20
We are a people who are careful, because we serve a patient loving Lord, whose tendency is for forgiveness where He can, but is just and true when angry and brings judgement that cannot be withstood.

Is this just more insecurity?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 14, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
If salvation was sinners entering heaven as rubber stamped sinners under a cloth, not of there choosing or will, there would be no earth only heaven and we would all be there.

None of this makes sense, at all.

The whole point is it is hard, Jesus said it is impossible. He said we have to die.

No, He said we have to believe in Him for salvation. Why don't you get that?

Gr8Grace · Nov 14, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I am glad to see that the majority of Christians replying to this thread do not subscribe to FG2’s ideas about salvation.

It is truly sad they don't. And It is not FreeGrace's ideas, It's the Lord Jesus Christ and His WAY.

It should give you great pause that the majority believe as you do......Because the Lord Jesus Christ say's FEW find it. Faith alone in Christ alone. Very narrow. One way. No exceptions.
Acts 16:31

Matt 7:14~~New American Standard Bible
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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