2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

I said:
"The idea that Jesus "faced exactly what we face" is just delusional. What He faced was FAR WORSE than anything any human could ever face."

LightLoveHope said:
This is your statement of faith. You do not see the reality of Jesus.

In reality, my comment IS objective truth. Your comment is what was totally wrong.

Therefore, no comments on the rest of your post.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
You are so indoctrinated. Paul calls us to be like an athlete. You would call people to just sit in their chairs and watch the world go by.

This is a ridiculous claim. I'm probably more athletic than you. Just my guess.

But because of these silly claims, I will stop there. Whatever else your post included is bypassed.

Thess · Nov 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Because of your false charge of what I hate, I stop there from responding to the rst of your post.

That is best....great job!

[1Co 4:3 NLT] 3 As for me, [it matters very little how I might be evaluated by you or by any human authority]. I don't even trust my own judgment on this point."

And I agree completely. I don't care about the evil thoughts that others have of me. In fact, I could care less if others judge me, for when they do, and they do very often, I only see their false judgement and pray that God would illuminate their hardened hearts.

I believe in you.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

I said:
"Emotions and thought are mutually exclusive."

LightLoveHope said:
Emotions are feelings with defined triggers.

My statement stands firm. There are NO thoughts in emotions. Only "feelings". And feelings cannot be trusted. Only objective reality can.

As with any messenger you need to identify the cause and what it is saying. If you are driving down a road and a light flashes at you, you pay it attention. Emotions are the same.

I never said to ignore emotions. I did say do not use emotions as your "brain", because emotions have no brain. Emotions do not think.

We get hurt because something matters to us which has been ignored or trampled on.

And, what does the Bible say about this? Are we supposed to sit down and have a good cry, or panic and fall apart? Or what?

We need to know what we wanted to find, and how it ended up causing us harm.

This sounds like it came straight out of a psych 101 textbook.

When we understand both things we can adjust our expectations, forgive the hurt, and know how to handle responses.

OK, but we can't "understand" these things from emotions. That's what I've been trying to get through to you.

To just bury the whole process is to say to oneself you do not matter, and who you are is unimportant to you, which is exactly the opposite of reality.

I never said anything about burying anything, or ignoring emotions. But to know what to do and how to act, we go to the Bible for instruction (there's that thinking again), rather than what we "feel" we should do.

Jesus says you do matter, He died for you, and the hurt caused by others needs resolution so you can walk in peace.

This just goes over my head, because I haven't been hurt by others. Certainly not to the point of becoming dysfunctional. I walk in peace precisely because of the assurance I get from the Bible. God is omnipotent and sovereign. He is in charge and everything that happens to me is because He has allowed it to occur. Therefore, He has always known what's coming, and therefore, when "bad stuff" happens, rather than emote or fall apart, I immediately know that He's always had a plan for me regarding this crisis. There is great peace in knowing that.

Doesn't take the pain away, or the difficulties, but I KNOW (there's that thinking again) He has given me the power (through the Holy Spirit) to overcome the situation. This brings glory to Him as unbelievers who see my crisis will see my calm and may question how I can be so calm in the midst of the crisis. This gives me the opportunity to share my faith in Christ with them.

But if my emotions take over and I behave as others who do not know Christ do, there is no opportunity for witness.

Further still we bear hurts in honour of our King, knowing sinners do not know what they are doing, enslaved to sin and bad behaviour.

This is what I am talking about. Having a witness by NOT emoting away. To "bear hurts" means to NOT show it. To NOT fall apart.

We can pray for them and desire that they find the King and forgiveness which all men need.

Of course. And we KNOW this because the Bible tells us to do so.

If the believer does not listen to the pain they themselves have how can they help others who have far worse problems, and in greater need.

Allowing emotions to drive us is no way to be able to help others.

Kinda reminds me of Matt 15:14 - Leave them; they are blind guides.If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

iow, if two people have the same malady, one cannot help the other.

What also is confusing emotions can be triggered by biological processes, lack of sleep, stress etc. but again once you identify the what is the trigger, one can put it into perspective and be free and in control.

iow, to not be emotional. (being in control)

Dorothy Mae · Nov 1, 2018

JLB777 said:
Notice that those are not my words, but yours.

Here is my words.

When a person is born again, they have the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus joined to their spirit and are now connected to the eternal life that is only found in Christ.

This is eternal life promised to those who have relationship with Christ. It is not something given like a material gift, that is possessed forever no matter whether one loves Christ or not.

The completion of the process will occur when He comes and we come forth in the resurrection of life.

This occurs at His coming.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2

Luke says it this way -

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35

I noticed that Jesus said "Those who are counted worthy" not "those who accept Me as lord and saviour" or "those who believed and received eternal life no matter how they treat God and man."

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7

Hope means future.

Well done JLB! There is just about no hope of getting OSAS believers to see that they do not possess tickets to heaven no matter if they love Christ or not or behave "like the Devil" (the words of one famous OSAS preacher.) They think believing they got it means they are believing the right stuff and nothing more, including loving God, is required of them. I suspect they do not believe in Jesus but believe they have eternal life. Those are not the same thing.

LightLoveHope · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
My statement stands firm. There are NO thoughts in emotions. Only "feelings". And feelings cannot be trusted. Only objective reality can.

Hi Free,

The way you are talking about feelings or emotions, is like they are some random events which have no relation to anything. And you oppose the world of the heart against facts or you call objective reality.

I will show you how feelings and thoughts and events are interlinked.
Often when we have a good experience or a person we like spending time with, when we see them again the emotions linked to that event and person come back. They are the summary of how we relate and experience them. A piece of music or a particular set of words can also trigger the emotion and the situation from the past. It is emotional memory. Scientists have discovered people who have lost the ability to remember ideas or thoughts can see someone and then a load of feelings appear, but they do not know why.

It is possible for a person to become disconnected with their emotions, where the triggers and responses are not understood and the feelings appear apparently randomly. This is a kind of split between the heart of a person and what they appear to be to the outside world. People in this state define themselves by how they want to appear, not who or what they are. In this model the language is "feelings cannot be trusted" and whatever else in the environment, often the group opinion is taken as what defines life and interaction. This can also be faith, or a rules set.

This creates legalism, or conformity through repression and ignoring the internal realities to create an impression on the surface. To a degree this is also how we do work, and remain consistent, but knowing why and how our internal reality is working is the difference between reality and just pretending.

Now I know how debilitating this ignoring the internal reality can be, living with someone who lives like this alone. They live with a brave face, while there is no true meaning or conclusions, because to them it feels like hurt and chaos within. This is not Jesus's way, or the power of the cross, love and the resurrection.

Now I am saying this not because I am being judgemental, rather I am shinning a light with real hope and healing, opening the heart to bring love, truth and reality to bare. But it takes real faith to lay down ones defences and to let oneself feel the emotions, and then let them go. This is essential to finding eternal life, else one is just a husk on top of chaos.

Do you see Paul saying we should not be driven by our passions, saying you just ignore them and repress them, though they rage and enslave ones behaviour out of control of the will or desire?
No, he rather takes every thought captive, because Christ through the Spirit has brought love and resolution to his heart.

For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance
1 Timothy 4:7-8

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Galatians 5:6

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
If so, you communicated in such a way to be totally unrecognizable.

To those who have closed their eyes to the truth, much of God’s word is indeed unrecognizable.

For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Matthew 13:12

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
This is eternal life promised to those who have relationship with Christ. It is not something given like a material gift, that is possessed forever no matter whether one loves Christ or not.

Amen!

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
I noticed that Jesus said "Those who are counted worthy" not "those who accept Me as lord and saviour" or "those who believed and received eternal life no matter how they treat God and man."

You “noticed” because you can “see”.

You love the Truth and desire that His people know the Truth as well.

I have pointed this out to him for years and he has rejected it.

God bless you and keep woman of God.

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, here goes the flip flop.

No flip flop here, I just won’t put up with you twisting my words.

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Only objective reality can.

Here is some objective reality for you.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Christian’s who hate no longer have eternal life remaining in them.

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
This is eternal life promised to those who have relationship with Christ.

It's not a future promise. Eternal life IS given WHEN one believes in Christ.
John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13 say so.

Oh, and John 10:28.

It is not something given like a material gift, that is possessed forever no matter whether one loves Christ or not.

This is in total disregard for what Jesus about recipients of eternal life never perishing in John 10:28.

Hope means future.

No, the Greek word 'elpis' means confident expectation. Not wishing for something in the future, as you'd wish it meant.

Well done JLB!

The only thing he's "done well" is to deny the very words of Jesus and reject His message of eternal security.

There is just about no hope of getting OSAS believers to see that they do not possess tickets to heaven

No tickets needed. Only possession of the gift of eternal life, which is given WHEN one believes in Christ. John 5:24, 6:47, 10:28, 1 John 5:11, 13

It's always weird to me that Christians will so blatantly reject what their Savior clearly teaches.

no matter if they love Christ or not or behave "like the Devil" (the words of one famous OSAS preacher.) They think believing they got it means they are believing the right stuff and nothing more, including loving God, is required of them. I suspect they do not believe in Jesus but believe they have eternal life. Those are not the same thing.

Jesus was very clear about the FACT that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

He said exactly that in John 10:28.

But you are free to accept what He said or reject it.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

JLB777 said:
You “noticed” because you can “see”. {posted to JLB}

What everyone else sees clearly is that both of you very blatantly reject what Jesus taught about eternal security.

Those given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Whoever believes currently possesses eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Now, I invite either (or both) of you to examine each of these verses and prove to me that none of them support my claims associated with the verses.

You love the Truth and desire that His people know the Truth as well.

The 2 of you have blatantly rejected what Jesus taught about eternal security.

I have pointed this out to him for years and he has rejected it.

I have consistently rejected your false doctrine which is in direct opposition to the words and teaching of Jesus Christ.

God bless you and keep woman of God.

God cannot bless anyone who blatantly rejects the teaching of Jesus Christ, His Son, in whom He is well pleased.

So don't kid yourselves.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

JLB777 said:
No flip flop here, I just won’t put up with you twisting my words.

JLB

Your words are twisted, all by themselves.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

JLB777 said:
Here is some objective reality for you.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Christian’s who hate no longer have eternal life remaining in them.
JLB

What you believe about that verse is twisted. The key to understand that verse is the word "abiding", a word that John used for reciprocal relationship, as we also see in John 15. Meaning, the ONLY WAY for a believer to bear fruit is to be in fellowship with Christ, something that Arminians who claim salvation can be lost have no concept of.

But John made the issue of fellowship quite clear in 1 John 1. Paul did as well, as seen in these verses: 1 Cor 1;9, 2 Cor 13:14, Phil 2:1, 3:1.

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
What everyone else sees clearly is that both of you very blatantly reject what Jesus taught about eternal security.

Ok. Please post the scripture where Jesus used or mentioned the phrase eternal security.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Those who hate their brother or sister in Christ, no longer have eternal life remaining in them.

So much for your man made theology.

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

JLB777 said:
Ok. Please post the scripture where Jesus used or mentioned the phrase eternal security.

The Bible doesn't need to bow to your silly demands on any subject.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Those who hate their brother or sister in Christ, no longer have eternal life remaining in them.
So much for your man made theology.

Why don't you share that opinion with Jesus Christ.

What still amazes me is that one who claims to be a Christian willfully attempts to find Scripture that is contrary to what Jesus said so plainly in John 10:28.

What you've never refuted, because you can't, is the FACT that whoever believes and therefore has eternal life shall never perish.

That totally shatters the heresy that salvation can be lost.

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself for even trying to do that.

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible doesn't need to bow to your silly demands on any subject.

Asking for a scripture to validate your claim is s not a silly demand.

Please post the scripture where Jesus used or mentioned the phrase eternal security.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Those who hate their brother or sister in Christ, no longer have eternal life remaining in them.

So much for your man made theology.

JLB

LightLoveHope · Nov 2, 2018

Immortal sinners will come to a sticky burnt end and find they were not immortal after all.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

JLB777 said:
Asking for a scripture to validate your claim is s not a silly demand.

Apparently you didn't comprehend my comment about your silly demand.

I said this:
"The Bible doesn't need to bow to your silly demands on any subject."

You were demanding a verse where Jesus said the words "eternal security", as if that's the only way He would have taught the principle.

Well, what He said in John 10:28 NAILS eternal security totally. And you've failed to prove the opposite.

Please post the scripture where Jesus used or mentioned the phrase eternal security.

A broken record.

So much for your man made theology.

Take it up with Jesus, who said believers HAVE eternal life and those who have been given eternal life shall never perish.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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