2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

JLB777 said:
I have stated this position countless times to you on every forum we have discussed this topic.

If so, you communicated in such a way to be totally unrecognizable.

Somehow you seem to just ignore it and go back to quoting scripture references without the scripture itself.
JLB

So very wrong again.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

I said:
"Now that you acknowledge and agree that WHEN a person is born again, which means WHEN they believe in Christ, they receive the gift of eternal life."

JLB777 said:
Notice that those are not my words, but yours.

OK, here goes the flip flop.

Here is my words.

When a person is born again, they have the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus joined to their spirit and are now connected to the eternal life that is only found in Christ.

You love to falsely accuse me of never quoting or citing Scripture, along with my opinions. OK, where is the Scripture that says what you now say?

The completion of the process will occur when He comes and we come forth in the resurrection of life.

This occurs at His coming.

Once again, your "answer" is nothing more than a bunch of words that makes nothing clear.

And there is only 1 verse about this so-called "Spirit of Life".

Rom 8:2 - because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

The verse says basically the same thing as Eph 1:13. That at faith in Christ, we are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit.

So, to say "the Spirit who gives life" is a statement that the Holy Spirit is the One who brings the gift of eternal life to the believer, at the MOMENT they believe.

So that verse doesn't help you at all, but totally supports my claims. Thanks for the help.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2

And how does this verse support anything you have claimed?

This is why it’s called the hope of eternal life.

No, I've explained it to you many times. In verses where "eternal life" is future, is is reference to eternity itself, which you cannot REFUTE. But go ahead and try.

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7
JLB

Ditto.

btw, look up the Greek word for "hope" in this verse. I dare you.

But, since I've seen your "homework" before, and know that you don't do any, I'll do it for you.

NT:1680 elpis (el-pece'); from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence:

How about that! Just what I've been saying: 'hope' is a confident expectation.

So, how does that fit into your theory of loss of salvation? It clearly doesn't.

So, thanks again for providing another verse on eternal security.

if salvation could be lost, there would be NO encouragement from the Bible about being confident or assured, right? Of course not.

Yet, you have provided a verse that is exactly about a confident expectation of eternity. That is eternal security.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Free, I wonder at who you follow.

Why? Do your emotions have you all tied up in a bundle, making thought very difficult? I follow the King, Jesus Christ. And that is obvious from my posts. But since it isn't obvious to you, you need to get your emotions in check.

Thess · Nov 1, 2018

[Jhn 13:35 NLT] 35 Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples." This means that whoever does not treat others with love and kindness may not be an actual child of God. Let us be kind to one another, as much as it depends on each of us.

I believe we can be kind.

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No they aren't any of these things. It takes THOUGHT, or knowledge to know these things. Emotions DON'T THINK. They are only FEELINGS. Not thoughts.

You have not understood my point. We only know anything because our feelings tell us we have reached a conclusion. Perception is very fluid. The reason why brain washing works is because you can get people to feel they have concluded some issue or facts, when you have just given them the feeling that they have. Everything we experience is unfortunately based on these assumptions.

Many science fiction stories have been written, asking the question how did we get here. Every moment we have to assume that there is a continuous series of events that has led to this point. But it relies on a feeling and a memory. It is why we send people to school so their feelings are based on actual knowledge. The knowledge is there but only by accessing it, going through the cycle and then coming to the conclusion do you know it exists.

So emotions are not an either/or they are part of the process. And most of our lives are lived on automatic pilot. It begs the question are we actually these automatic processes we have learnt or something more?

And when you mention facts. Facts are summaries of theories and beliefs about the world. They are always incomplete and are useful because that level of knowledge is enough to help us live and cope with the challenges of the day.

When we are hurt and damaged we protect our feelings, and hide them so further damage is limited. This is where sin can prosper and blindness to what we are doing and who we are hurting because we are literally shut down. If you believe in life and a God of love, and you want more of the victory that bore Him to the cross, you have to open up. There is no other way. This is the gospel.

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Why? Do your emotions have you all tied up in a bundle, making thought very difficult? I follow the King, Jesus Christ. And that is obvious from my posts. But since it isn't obvious to you, you need to get your emotions in check.

Unfortunately it is not obvious at all. I talked about the Lord and His heart, but it seems you are blind to this. I talk of Jesus our Lord and His empathy, knowing peoples hearts and communing with them, yet this is strange language to you.

Jesus is much more that you are experiencing.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
You have not understood my point.

No, I have understood your point and I strongly disagree.

We only know anything because our feelings tell us we have reached a conclusion.

Any conclusion requires thought. Not feelings or emotion.

Perception is very fluid. The reason why brain washing works is because you can get people to feel they have concluded some issue or facts, when you have just given them the feeling that they have. Everything we experience is unfortunately based on these assumptions.

I do understand that you abhor thinking. But love feelings.

And when you mention facts. Facts are summaries of theories and beliefs about the world. They are always incomplete and are useful because that level of knowledge is enough to help us live and cope with the challenges of the day.

No, facts are objective reality. Do you even know what that is?

When we are hurt and damaged we protect our feelings, and hide them so further damage is limited.

Running on emotions.

This is where sin can prosper and blindness to what we are doing and who we are hurting because we are literally shut down.

I agree that emotions can lead to sin.

If you believe in life and a God of love, and you want more of the victory that bore Him to the cross, you have to open up. There is no other way. This is the gospel.

"Opening up" is the gospel? Please share where you came up with that stuff.

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Why? Do your emotions have you all tied up in a bundle, making thought very difficult? I follow the King, Jesus Christ. And that is obvious from my posts. But since it isn't obvious to you, you need to get your emotions in check.

Free. If I express my love of Jesus, His transforming power, things of heaven, quote and share His word, the essence of the apostles and Jesus's teaching and you call this "satans lies" there is something seriously wrong.

Satan was rebuked because he contradicted Gods word. So you do the same. God is love.
God is love because of His justice, righteousness, holiness, He still reaches out to us with the hope we can be changed. And I mean changed, really changed, no just an intellectual thinking belief but everything about who you are and how you express yourself. He calls us to eternity, to honesty, truth, walking from our hearts, doing everything within the constraints we live by.

I know what earning salvation looks like. But this is blown away when you see Jesus on the cross. And I mean see the man, Jesus, flesh and blood, who faced exactly what we face, but He freely chose to die, suffer pain at the hands of hypocritical liars, and still forgive them. This is way beyond what I am capable of, except now in Jesus I begin to grasp what He has done in my heart.

His word is life.

Dorothy Mae · Nov 1, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
I know it wasn't addressed to me......BUT, Why didn't Paul tell the jailer," Personally love the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved...?"

There ain't a person in the world that can 'love' God apart from being saved. Saved first, Indwelt with the Holy Spirit and then and ONLY then can we 'love' as the bible describes.

Did Jesus love God? Was he “saved?” What about David? Or Enoch?

Someone that is not saved cannot love. They may have emotional, feelings and worldly 'love.' But not biblical love.

I know lots of atheists who do love so this is untrue.

And to be direct with your question..... NO. We do not need to love God to be saved. Many believers love their religion and what THEY are doing for God and have COMPLETELY forgot about His love for them and what HE did for them.

I actually asked if you consider yourself as under the command to love God. Apparently you do not. That is an optional extra for you.

What is revealing is that no OSAS believer will admit that THEY must love God. To a man they redirect the question to third persons or theology. Or they had something I didn’t ask.

They won’t say they openly they don’t have to love God as I surmised, as that would condemn themselves. But they switch the question away from their own heart.

This is very interesting. It reveals a kind of stronghold on the mind.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

I said:
"Why? Do your emotions have you all tied up in a bundle, making thought very difficult? I follow the King, Jesus Christ. And that is obvious from my posts. But since it isn't obvious to you, you need to get your emotions in check."

LightLoveHope said:
Unfortunately it is not obvious at all.

Well, not obvious to one all tied up in their own feelings and emotions. Which is also one of my points.

I talked about the Lord and His heart, but it seems you are blind to this. I talk of Jesus our Lord and His empathy, knowing peoples hearts and communing with them, yet this is strange language to you.

Jesus is much more that you are experiencing.

How do you know what I am experiencing? Are you omniscient, along with all your emotions?

The problem remains that you are under the illusion that emotions think. When, in reality, emotions are DEVOID of thought.

Emotions and thought are mutually exclusive.

I'll give you an example of the danger/problem of feelings/emotions.

Someone can get "hurt feelings" when there was nothing to cause it. The perception was faulty.

otoh, if that person was functioning upon rational thought instead of their feelings, they wouldn't have felt hurt.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I know what earning salvation looks like. But this is blown away when you see Jesus on the cross.

No, it appears that you do not know what earning salvation looks like.

And I mean see the man, Jesus, flesh and blood, who faced exactly what we face, but He freely chose to die, suffer pain at the hands of hypocritical liars, and still forgive them.

The idea that Jesus "faced exactly what we face" is just delusional. What He faced was FAR WORSE than anything any human could ever face.

You don't have facts.

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I have understood your point and I strongly disagree.
Any conclusion requires thought. Not feelings or emotion.
I do understand that you abhor thinking. But love feelings.
No, facts are objective reality. Do you even know what that is?
Running on emotions.
I agree that emotions can lead to sin.
"Opening up" is the gospel? Please share where you came up with that stuff.

A joke is something that is a caricature of a point which is unexpected.
I love thinking, have spent my life building models and contemplating them.
You hate feelings and facts and issues that stir them in you, which is reflected by the idea if I acknowledge my feelings I am run on emotions, and abhor thinking.

Can you admit you close your emotional life down? It is obvious from how you respond.
And to have an open heart and an open emotional life is not to lose control, it is to be alive.
But emotions are not one feeling but many and they battle with each other to come to a
conclusion. It is why we are creative creatures, and have intuition. It is this creativity
which enables us to discover the unexpected, produce art, music, dance.

You still have not understood, there is objective reality, God, but we can only experience Him subjectively. Until we have resolved our hearts, our view is always tainted.
This is why Jesus talked about the beam and the speck.

So you wish to correct me about assurance of salvation, knowing I am secure in Christ.
I respond that Jesus calls us to the fullness of life, emotional and intellectual, together
in harmony, and you respond I am wrong.

Jesus transcends life, overcomes, puts things in there right place and calls us to this place.

I have kids, and I grew up in an emotionally restrained family with mental illness problems.
And the answer to this is one thing. Let emotions out, learn what they are and put them in their proper place, so you know who you are. And my kids are very functional, coping and alive, rejoicing in the blessing God has given us. The alternative is total collapse, permanent medication and living a life of protection and limited pressure. The enemy lies about who we are, and how dangerous our feelings are. They are just feelings. The are just feelings, messages which we can ignore or respond to. Learn that and you are beginning to understand what truth and freedom really is.

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
The idea that Jesus "faced exactly what we face" is just delusional. What He faced was FAR WORSE than anything any human could ever face.

This is your statement of faith. You do not see the reality of Jesus.
God killed by man. Perfection rejected and despised. Being alone. Theologians say he bore all the sin of the world upon Him. Another way of saying this He accepted mans lostness and forgave their evil in killing Him and making Him suffer.

There is a religious fear, that if one was to say, Jesus just died like any human, it demeans His sacrifice. But again in this is the lie. God became man, and died at our hands. The quantity of pain or an infinite burden does not make it worse. Pain is pain. Too much and you pass out. People have been in agony for months and years. The point of Jesus is He showed He is willing to forgive us, be friends with us, and work with us.

But for your view, you need Jesus to be far different from us, to be a mystical balancer of the infinite debt, so it cannot be we are to walk in righteousness, but only be spiritually made immortal.

What would you do if someone came and hit you on your head, trying to kill you? You would kill them if you could. God has every right to obliterate us, grind us into dust and see it blown to the wind.

The idea God gives you responsibility to walk in His footsteps, empowered by who He is, is just too much. That is how powerless and empty this faith is, a trick of making Jesus to different and other, while excusing the failure of the believer to follow into this being Gods intention all along.

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

A faith of totems

Jesus does it all, we do nothing.
The bible shows the way, a few verses and we are safe.
We belong to this church, we are saved, you guys are just doomed.
I have done this, been nice, so that is worth as much as my rubbish.
I am as good as the next man, that should be enough.
I once went to church and used to believe that junk, if God wants I am safe.

My heart is a wreck, but God only sees Jesus, so I am ok, no need to dig up problems or resolve anything, God will sort it out when I see Him.

I read the bible every year, do not understand it or apply or listen to it, but I am trying.
I once tried church, but these church people are so annoying, I can live without it.

The only thing that matters is an open heart, with Christ and love flowing from us to others.
Streams of living water, Amen.

"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 7:38-39

If ones heart if full of darkness such experiences are not going to happen.

I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life
John 8:12

So what flows from your heart, light or darkness? Love and hope or despair and defeat?

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No, it appears that you do not know what earning salvation looks like.

The idea that Jesus "faced exactly what we face" is just delusional. What He faced was FAR WORSE than anything any human could ever face.

You don't have facts.

You are so indoctrinated. Paul calls us to be like an athlete. You would call people to just sit in their chairs and watch the world go by.

Now the funny thing is, when I realised who I am talking to, it no longer matters how bad the words are or the put downs, because the divide is too obvious.

Spiritual reality cannot be faked. You know who you are and whether you heart responds to the call of the King. I wrote once people should ask Him to confirm to their hearts what I was sharing.

What they did not understand, that is who we are. Born from on high, molded and formed through His word and His life flowing from us. Jesus tells us we will be opposed, and He will provide the words, and to this I say Amen.

I wonder sometimes about ministries. But look at John the Baptist. Short and sweet. If we can blaze for our King and His word, Amen, that is all we need to do.

Thess · Nov 1, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Jesus does it all, we do nothing.

Are you sure? Why would Jesus Himself say the following? [Luk 13:24 NIV] 24 "[Make every effort] to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Here is another sample of this mystery, that we must put forth effort.
[Eph 4:3 NLT] 3 Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.
[2Pe 1:5 NLT] 5 In view of all this, make every effort to respond to God's promises. Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellence, and moral excellence with knowledge,
[2Pe 3:14 NLT] 14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

Thess said:
Are you sure? Why would Jesus Himself say the following? [Luk 13:24 NIV] 24 "[Make every effort] to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Here is another sample of this mystery, that we must put forth effort.
[Eph 4:3 NLT] 3 Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.
[2Pe 1:5 NLT] 5 In view of all this, make every effort to respond to God's promises. Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellence, and moral excellence with knowledge,
[2Pe 3:14 NLT] 14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.

Sorry, I was demonstrating errors, statements that are a form of simple solutions that change the focus away from the way, which I have come across.

On a forum is said that Jesus did not do enough on the cross to be saved. You have to repent and believe. I was illustrating without faith and repentance, the cross has no power in ones life. I was told I was blaspheming, the enemy of Christ etc.

Another was Jesus was spray paint to cover up the sin believers commited so God did not see. This is what some believe, God is blind to the sins of His people because Jesus's blood covers it. Now this is true, Jesus's blood does cover and cleanse past sins away from the repentant believer who walks in faith.

There are so many distortions of Jesus empowers us to walk righteously, to know purity, to be as He desired us to be, it can be like a hornets nest and them come to destroy ones witness.
And for folk such as these I am the enemy, which is very odd, unless they are truly deceived and cannot tell we are called to confront evil and walk in Gods will. But then if you become a light, the moths will be drawn out...... but then what can a moth do to Gods revelation, nothing.

LightLoveHope · Nov 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Emotions and thought are mutually exclusive.

Emotions are feelings with defined triggers. As with any messenger you need to identify the cause and what it is saying. If you are driving down a road and a light flashes at you, you pay it attention. Emotions are the same.

We get hurt because something matters to us which has been ignored or trampled on. We need to know what we wanted to find, and how it ended up causing us harm. When we understand both things we can adjust our expectations, forgive the hurt, and know how to handle responses. To just bury the whole process is to say to oneself you do not matter, and who you are is unimportant to you, which is exactly the opposite of reality. Jesus says you do matter, He died for you, and the hurt caused by others needs resolution so you can walk in peace.

Further still we bear hurts in honour of our King, knowing sinners do not know what they are doing, enslaved to sin and bad behaviour. We can pray for them and desire that they find the King and forgiveness which all men need.

If the believer does not listen to the pain they themselves have how can they help others who have far worse problems, and in greater need. The answer is they are totally disarmed and incapable of loving or showing empathy, which is the gospel and what Jesus did for us.

What also is confusing emotions can be triggered by biological processes, lack of sleep, stress etc. but again once you identify the what is the trigger, one can put it into perspective and be free and in control.

Thess · Nov 1, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Sorry, I was demonstrating errors, statements that are a form of simple solutions that change the focus away from the way, which I have come across.

Thanks for the clarification, and I'm glad to see it! I share your same concerns regarding the truth on the One, Almighty Creator of our universe. It is so important that we all have the same truth. In fact, do you recall the vision that Paul describes in the first couple of chapters in Galatians? He writes of responding to this vision by meeting with those esteemed as "leaders" in the faith, so as to examine the Gospel that he, Paul was teaching. He said that if it were not that he would have been running this race in error, meaning that should his Gospel be erroneous, the beliefs of his natural followers would have not been saved, but pushed yet even further from the truth.

Oh Powerful, Almighty God of this universe, please send us only the truth and help us to change to meet those truth's. We beg of you to give us the truth!

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
A joke is something that is a caricature of a point which is unexpected.
I love thinking, have spent my life building models and contemplating them.
You hate feelings and facts and issues that stir them in you, which is reflected by the idea if I acknowledge my feelings I am run on emotions, and abhor thinking.

Because of your false charge of what I hate, I stop there from responding to the rst of your post.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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