2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

Gr8Grace · Aug 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
so please explain what is absurd.

THAT.....we won't get my friend.

God Is, without a doubt, graceful and merciful........because true doctrine is rejected by the majority of believers. Or it is so utterly foreign to them, they can't see it.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Aug 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I always know who I post to.

I haven't found any absurdities in Gr8grace's posts, so please explain what is absurd.

#31 post from Gr8grace gave me the information that I then posted back to Gr8grace. When you responded, you asked me where I got the absurdities. Post #31 is where they came from, not one of my posts.

Gr8Grace · Aug 23, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
#31 post from Gr8grace gave me the information that I then posted back to Gr8grace. When you responded, you asked me where I got the absurdities. Post #31 is where they came from, not one of my posts.

You just made a broad claim. And never specifically pointed out what I said, and refuted the 'absurdities.'

The absurdity is thinking that John is giving us guidelines so we can sit and meditate on believers to 'see' if they are really saved or not saved. Completely and utterly useless information for us to advance in OUR Christian life.

Gr8Grace · Aug 23, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
This is a very different doctrine, what church teaches this (since, according to your words above, you clearly must have placed yourself under a pastor teacher's authority who tells you what is right or wrong?

This is another aspect that is TOTALLY lost today. A pastor teacher, who is gifted and following his gift..........doesn't tell his flock what to believe. He teaches his flock how to study the word, The History and context of when it was written and teaches from the original language.

The majority of 'pastors' today have a theology and try to prove their theology to their 'flock.'

The pastor teacher who is operating in his gift, teaches his flock so thoroughly.........that they can prove him wrong when he is wrong.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Aug 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Since I never said "only believers who..." please cite the post # so all can see your claim.

The false premise in your statement here is that believers who cease to believe somehow, magically and mystically, become non-sons. Or is it un-sons?

Kinda like being unsealed, or un-born again.

In your post #35, you yourself confirmed by your response.

I would define believers differently than you, based on what Scripture shares. The expected belief is a much greater concept than you give it credit for. For instance, Jesus speaks to churches in Rev 2 & 3. To each church, He says something and then closes out like this example in Rev 3:5: "He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."

So, (1) Jesus is speaking to a church and Jesus is saying only "he who overcomes...." What happens to those who don't overcome? (2) If Jesus can (and will) blot names out of the Book of Life and you don't enter the Book of Life until you are born again, what does that mean to your theory?

You mock about mystically becoming non-sons. Don't forget that those who become sons are mystically made sons. So, why, if someone no longer wants to be "an (adopted) son" (though I can't fathom someone who truly is a son ever doing such a thing), would God force them to remain such? He wants willing worshippers. If He didn't want people to willfully worship Him, He could have prevented our free will. He didn't want that. And, if He didn't care about someone willfully choosing Him, He could have said: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that everyone would be saved." But, He didn't say that. So, why would that God who only wanted those who wanted Him, make someone stay who didn't want Him--simply because they gave some temporary assent at one point in their lives?

Gr8Grace · Aug 23, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
So, why, if someone no longer wants to be "an (adopted) son" (though I can't fathom someone who truly is a son ever doing such a thing), would God force them to remain such?

Because of His Word.

You have been bought with a price. The price of His Son. So once we believe/trust in Christ and His price for us, God has you and will never let go , no matter what.....because the integrity and the virtue of His Son is at stake. Not ours.

We are no longer our own. He bought us with His price. Emotionally and subjectively, yeah I would like to say 'screw em' if they walk away at sometime. But His word objectively says, they will never perish, they were bought with His price and are no longer their own( to walk away from His salvation and His eternal life.)......But God does offer them misery and discipline if they want to fight Him.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 24, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
#31 post from Gr8grace gave me the information that I then posted back to Gr8grace. When you responded, you asked me where I got the absurdities. Post #31 is where they came from, not one of my posts.

OK, here is all that gr8Grace posted:
John is not judging their salvation. He is judging if they are being a student of God or a student of the devil. Believers are promised they will never perish. And John knew this fact. A loser believer will leave a doctrinal church and seek out teachers that will tickle their ears.......the loss of salvation crowd would have not remained with John and his teachings......but he would not judge their salvation. That is up to GOD and God alone.

1John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

John instructs us to perceive whether other people are children of God or children of the devil based upon their behavior.
John knew that believers will never perish. And knew salvation was up to God and God alone. So John instructs us to perceive and judge their DOCTRINES. A Student of God manifests themselves through the teachings of God. A loser believer, babe in Christ or someone who gets saved and never opens the bible to become a student of His manifests themselves as a student of the devil. Still saved though. Because the moment they believed God saved them.

1John 3:7,8
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil

John instructs us not to be led astray (by Free Grace Theology) into thinking that a person who lives in sin is of God.
A believer who lives in sin is not of God. They are of the devil. And misery and discipline is the trademark of their life........saved, but as if through fire.

1John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

John instructs us that those who don't listen to the apostles teachings are not of God.
Doctrinal believers are from God. They KNOW God.....because they study to show themselves approved. His doctrines reveal the Spirit of truth and shines light on what is false. Believers who don't study to show themselves approved and have never placed themselves under authority of his or her right pastor teacher(John in this case,they won't listen to him) can't recognize the Spirit of truth and discern what is false........they are still saved though. John knew that believers will never perish and that salvation is up to God and God alone.
---------------------------------------

OK, so from all that he posted, what, specifically, is so absurd?

What I posted was your absurd misunderstanding of what he posted.

So, please specify the absurdities in all that he posted.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 24, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
In your post #35, you yourself confirmed by your response.

Here is the whole post:
"I said:
"Sure. Lots. Believers who quit will face God's discipline, which, according to Heb 12:11 is painful. They will be denied blessings during their lifetime, and loss of reward in eternity. Isa 1:18-20 was given to Israel, but the principle hasn't been rescinded."

Then you asked this:
So are you saying that only believers who quit will face God's discipline?
Didn't you read my statement above? You quoted it in your response.

Look at the first line."

Did you look at the first line, which answered your question. I NEVER said "only believers who quit will face God's discipline. I did say that believers who quit will face God's discipline.

Is this too complicated for you to follow, or what?

I would define believers differently than you, based on what Scripture shares.

I would agree that your definition must be different than what the Bible says about it.

The expected belief is a much greater concept than you give it credit for. For instance, Jesus speaks to churches in Rev 2 & 3. To each church, He says something and then closes out like this example in Rev 3:5: "He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."

Nothing in Rev 2 or 3 that speaks of how to be saved. The messages are to believers IN churches. And the "overcomer" comments refer to eternal reward, not salvation, which you probably have never been taught.

So, (1) Jesus is speaking to a church and Jesus is saying only "he who overcomes...." What happens to those who don't overcome?

Easy answer. They don't get what He spoke of. No reward.

(2) If Jesus can (and will) blot names out of the Book of Life and you don't enter the Book of Life until you are born again, what does that mean to your theory?

First, Jesus NEVER EVER said anyone's name will be blotted out. It was a figure of speech, called a "litotes", which refutes your misunderstanding of what He said.

Here is a definition from a Yahoo search:
ironic understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of its contrary (e.g., you won't be sorry, meaning you'll be glad).

Here's one from Merriam-Webster:
Litotes definition is - understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of the contrary (as in 'not a bad singer' or 'not unhappy') ...

So don't take a litotes statement as something it is not.

So by "not blotting out" one's name, the opposite is true. The person who overcomes will be honored, the OPPOSITE of having their name blotted out.

You mock about mystically becoming non-sons.

Not mocking at all. If salvation can be lost, then becoming UN-saved would also demand being made an UN-son, UN-adopted, UN-justified, UN-regenerated. Etc.

Don't forget that those who become sons are mystically made sons.

Not mystical at all. What a weird claim to make. God works supernaturally, if you never noticed.

So, why, if someone no longer wants to be "an (adopted) son" (though I can't fathom someone who truly is a son ever doing such a thing), would God force them to remain such?

Oh, yeah, the old "free will" argument. Where are any verses that tell us that one can be made an UN-son, UN-justified, UN-regenerated then? Hm?

Do you really not understand what a promise means? When God promises something, it WILL come to pass. Which you seemingly don't believe.

Heb 6:18 - God did this so that we would be encouraged. God cannot lie when he takes an oath or makes a promise. These two things can never be changed. Those of us who have taken refuge in him hold on to the confidence we have been given. GWT

When God promises or guarantees something, you can take it to the bank.

He wants willing worshippers.

Of course He does. And He disciplines His children who don't.

If He didn't want people to willfully worship Him, He could have prevented our free will.

He doesn't prevent anyone's free will. But again, He has promised an inheritance in heaven for those who have believed, per Eph 1:13,14, so deal with it.

He didn't want that. And, if He didn't care about someone willfully choosing Him, He could have said: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that everyone would be saved." But, He didn't say that. So, why would that God who only wanted those who wanted Him, make someone stay who didn't want Him--simply because they gave some temporary assent at one point in their lives?

Your question reveals a total failure to grasp what it means when God makes a promise.

Review Eph 1:13,14, John 5:24, John 10:28.

JLB777 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel.

The words "have not believed" is in the aorist tense; meaning believed in a point of time. Past time.

The Arminian claim that one must continue to believe in order to avoid hell (losing salvation) is refuted by this verse. If that claim were true, Paul would have written it this way:

"so that all will be condemned who do not continue to believe the truth".

So the aorist tense once again refutes the claim of Arminians.

In fact, 2 Thess 2:12 parallels both of these verses:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here's how: Jn 5:24 says those who believe "will not be judged/condemned".

John 10:28 says recipients "of eternal life (believers) shall never perish".

It will be interesting and instructive to see how Arminians, if any do, will respond to this thread.

I'm not an Armenian, but I will respond to this thread.

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 9-12

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The truth is Jesus is Messiah.

Jews who do not believe Jesus is Messiah, will build a new temple in hopes that their "messiah" will come.

Their "messiah" is the false christ, who will go to the temple and proclaim himself as God.

The is the false christ: the antichrist.

Only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

That is the context.

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Aug 24, 2018

JLB777 said:
I'm not an Armenian, but I will respond to this thread.

True. At least they believe in salvation by faith in Christ, unlike your Pharisee belief that you will earn eternal life by "continuance in doing good" (Rom 2;7).

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 9-12

Do you accept 1 Thess as Scripture or not? Like so many other verses that refute you.

Review 1 Thess 5:4-10 and tell me what "whether awake or asleep" means to you.

JLB777 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Please stop misquoting scripture.

You have been called out many times about this.

John 10:28 does not say that.

You deliberately leave off the first word which connects the previous verse to this promise.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life...

JLB

JLB777 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you accept 1 Thess as Scripture or not? Like so many other verses that refute you.

Review 1 Thess 5:4-10 and tell me what "whether awake or asleep" means to you.

We are discussing 2 Thessalonians.

Please refer to my post and what I said.

1 Thessalonians is not 2 Thessalonians. LOL!!!

JLB

JLB777 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
True. At least they believe in salvation by faith in Christ, unlike your Pharisee belief that you will earn eternal life by "continuance in doing good" (Rom 2;7).

Here is what I believe:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Romans 2:7

Do you believe God will render, that He will give to each person according to their deeds?

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

He will give to each person according to how they lived their life as a born again, Spirit empowered Christian. According to the Spirit or according to the flesh.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

According to the Spirit is the lifestyle of love, righteousness, peace and holiness.

According to the flesh is the lifestyle of hate, unrighteousness, strife and immorality.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. Galatians 6:7-10

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. 1 John 2:4-5

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

JLB777 said:
Please stop misquoting scripture.

I NEVER have misquoted Scripture. I copy the verse from Bible Study Tools Online.

And I checked 28 English translations from Biblehub.com, and 16 included the "and".

So what? All you're doing is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I've color coded the verse very many times to help you follow my points about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

And you haven't EVER touched it. Because you know the words are exactly what I claim.

They state the CAUSE of having eternal life, and the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is they shall never perish.

So you can take your "and" and eat it.

You have been called out many times about this.

All false. And you have HAD to ignore my color coded explanation of the verse many times.

John 10:28 does not say that.

It's absurd to say this.

You deliberately leave off the first word which connects the previous verse to this promise.

Go ahead and eat that word. Your "mountain" is nothing more than a distraction for answering my color coded explanation of the verse.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

And 12 English translations leave it out.

Again, so what? Your molehill is nothing but an excuse to ignore my color coded explanation of the verse, as you know full well.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Here's the FACT. If one must continue to or keep on following Jesus in order to never perish, Jesus would have put that in between the CAUSE of having eternal life and the EFFECT of having eternal life.

And we all know that He put NOTHING in between the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

So the single condition for never perishing is to be given eternal life.

And I've proved that with my color coded explanation, which you are forced to dodge.

[QOUTE]Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27.[/QUOTE]
Do you understand what a "result clause" looks like?

But, the real question is where you get to make up this bit about v.27 being a condition for v.28?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life...=[/QUOTE]
Oh, yeah. I keep forgetting that you don't consider John 5:24, 6:47 or 1 John 5:13 to be Scrpture.

But they ARE, whether you like it or not.

And these 3 verses indicate WHEN one possesses eternal life. We all know what your opinion is; that eternal life is given after one's life on earth.

But, thesse 3 verses tell us plainly that those who believe HAVE (possess) eternal life.

So, in addition to ignoring/dodging my color coded explanation of v.28, you continue to ignore/dodge these 3 verses that clearly indicate when one is given eternal life.

So, from the MOMENT one believes, they are described by Jesus has never perishing.

Which smashes your opinion to bits. Little bits.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Do you accept 1 Thess as Scripture or not? Like so many other verses that refute you.

Review 1 Thess 5:4-10 and tell me what "whether awake or asleep" means to you.

JLB777 said:
We are discussing 2 Thessalonians.

Yep.

Please refer to my post and what I said.

I did, and my comment stands.

1 Thessalonians is not 2 Thessalonians. LOL!!!

It appears you are not capable of following this discussion. Sad.

By quoting 2 Thess, it can be assumed that you consider it to be Scripture.

I was pointing out what Paul wrote in 1 Thess 5:4-10, which is another passage on eternal security.

But I see that once again, you'd rather dodge and ignore verses that you know you have no answer for, nor defense against.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
True. At least they believe in salvation by faith in Christ, unlike your Pharisee belief that you will earn eternal life by "continuance in doing good" (Rom 2;7)

JLB777 said:
Here is what I believe:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Romans 2:7

Which is exactly what I posted. The Arminians will be saved by their faith in Christ.

Pharisees won't be saved by their trust in their "continuance in doing good" schtick.

Do you believe God will render, that He will give to each person according to their deeds?
God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

If anyone COULD do this, then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross for our sins.

But it seems you are unable to understand that glaring fact.

He will give to each person according to how they lived their life as a born again, Spirit empowered Christian.

This true statement refers to receiving eternal rewards, not salvation, as you wrongly opine.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

How did Paul describe ALL of humanity?

Rom 3:9 all are under sin
Rom 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

JLB777 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Where is the rest of the scripture Freegrace?

Why do you leave out part of the scripture?

Because your whole “theology” is built upon the false notion that God gives eternal life to everyone without any conditions.

JLB

JLB777 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Do you accept 1 Thess as Scripture or not? Like so many other verses that refute you.

Review 1 Thess 5:4-10 and tell me what "whether awake or asleep" means to you.

Yep.

I did, and my comment stands.

It appears you are not capable of following this discussion. Sad.

By quoting 2 Thess, it can be assumed that you consider it to be Scripture.

I was pointing out what Paul wrote in 1 Thess 5:4-10, which is another passage on eternal security.

But I see that once again, you'd rather dodge and ignore verses that you know you have no answer for, nor defense against.

Do you accept these scriptures or not?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

JLB

JLB777 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
True. At least they believe in salvation by faith in Christ, unlike your Pharisee belief that you will earn eternal life by "continuance in doing good" (Rom 2;7)

Which is exactly what I posted. The Arminians will be saved by their faith in Christ.

Pharisees won't be saved by their trust in their "continuance in doing good" schtick.

If anyone COULD do this, then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross for our sins.

But it seems you are unable to understand that glaring fact.

This true statement refers to receiving eternal rewards, not salvation, as you wrongly opine.

How did Paul describe ALL of humanity?

Rom 3:9 all are under sin
Rom 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

JLB777 · Aug 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
True. At least they believe in salvation by faith in Christ, unlike your Pharisee belief that you will earn eternal life by "continuance in doing good" (Rom 2;7)

Which is exactly what I posted. The Arminians will be saved by their faith in Christ.

Pharisees won't be saved by their trust in their "continuance in doing good" schtick.

If anyone COULD do this, then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross for our sins.

But it seems you are unable to understand that glaring fact.

This true statement refers to receiving eternal rewards, not salvation, as you wrongly opine.

How did Paul describe ALL of humanity?

Rom 3:9 all are under sin
Rom 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Christian’s are called to obey the commandments of the Lord.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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