2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[bcbsr]

Jesus called Peter Satan in Mark 8:33. Was He being literal then? Of course not. In the same way, John was not being literal about actual children, but HOW children behave.

And when believers act like unbelievers, they are acting like children of the devil.

Clearly John is speaking of, and I quote, "who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are". He's clearly not saying simply that when believers sin they're behaving as children of the devil. Poor exegesis on your part.

As for my comprehensive view of all of 1st John, as I pointed out, you can read my study guides:
http://bcbsr.com/books/1jn.html
http://bcbsr.com/books/1jnss.html

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I said this:
"I don't see any of this as "outcomes" or "groups".

#1 is about a person who believes.
#2 is a statement about Christ's return and living believers are caught up with the Lord.
#3 is unbiblical, because there are no verses that claim that one who believes "for a while" is not saved.
#4 describes all unbelievers.

But, regarding your "outcomes", there are only 2:
1. a person puts their faith in Christ for salvation, and receives eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 Tim 1:16, and 1 John 5:13. The result is that they shall never perish. John 10:28

2. a person never puts their faith in Christ for salvation, and will be thrown into the lake of fire at the Great White Throne judgment. Rev 20:15

These 2 "outcomes" prove that regardless of how long a person may believe in Christ, they STILL have eternal life and shall NOT ever perish.

If you can find any verse that says otherwise, congratulations! You just proved the Bible to be contradictory. "

No, my point is that it is YOUR understanding of some verses that DO contradict other verses.


I highly recommend that you actually deal with my points above. Take them one at a time, and explain how or why they are incorrect. That's how to refute someone.

Prove me wrong. So far, all I've seen is your opinion.


Correction. Jesus said NOTHING about one who only believes for a while is only saved for a while. That was my point. And that claim (opinion) is unbiblical.

Or prove me wrong by quoting any verse that says one is saved only as long as they believe. And Luke 8:13 doesn't say anything like that.

So, if I understand your last statement from the way you wrote it, you believe it is possible for someone who is saved to stop believing OR you believe that someone will be saved even if they stop believing. Is that what you believe?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Clearly John is speaking of, and I quote, "who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are". He's clearly not saying simply that when believers sin they're behaving as children of the devil. Poor exegesis on your part.

As for my comprehensive view of all of 1st John, as I pointed out, you can read my study guides:
http://bcbsr.com/books/1jn.html
http://bcbsr.com/books/1jnss.html

How come you will not answer my simple question about whether you still sin?

1 Jn 3:9 says whoever is born of God DOES NOT SIN.

So, if you still commit ANY sins, then by your own viewpoint, you have not been born again.

So, please answer.

There can only be 2 possible understandings of 1 Jn 3:9. Mine or yours. But if you have EVER sinned after faith in Christ, then by your own viewpoint, you have not been born again.

I have given a very reasonable explanation that involves the believer's 2 natures, one of which cannot sin, and the other one, where our sin comes from.

Do you still sin?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, if I understand your last statement from the way you wrote it, you believe it is possible for someone who is saved to stop believing OR you believe that someone will be saved even if they stop believing. Is that what you believe?

Exactly.

And the reason is very clear. Jesus said that some "believe for a while", but in time of temptation, they fall away.

And Paul told Timothy in 1 Tim 4:1 that in "later times" some will fall away from the faith.

And, since Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, even those who cease to believe (and have been given eternal life) shall never perish.

Do you think that Jesus could ever be wrong?

 

[bcbsr]

How come you will not answer my simple question about whether you still sin?

1 Jn 3:9 says whoever is born of God DOES NOT SIN.

So, if you still commit ANY sins, then by your own viewpoint, you have not been born again.

So, please answer.

There can only be 2 possible understandings of 1 Jn 3:9. Mine or yours. But if you have EVER sinned after faith in Christ, then by your own viewpoint, you have not been born again.

I have given a very reasonable explanation that involves the believer's 2 natures, one of which cannot sin, and the other one, where our sin comes from.

Do you still sin?

I've answered your question. You just haven't listened. No, there are not just "2 possible understandings" as you allege. As I said, and as I elaborated in my study guides, which apparently you didn't bother to read before bearing false witness against me, John is using the present tense to indicate characteristic behavior. That is, what is characteristic of one's lifestyle. The aorist tense he's using to indicate point in time events and uncharacteristic behavior.

1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

By this he is not denying that those born of God sin from time to time, but uncharacteristically. He is using the present tense to indicate that those born of God don't live in sin. The reason why is due to the nature of regeneration as he states.

How about you? Do you life a lifestyle of sin. Is sinning characteristic of your life? If so, then what does this verse say about you?

And yes, it's talking about measurable behavior, for he goes on in the next verse to say "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother"

And that's a major theme in 1John - how to distinguish between children of God and children of the devil.

Now getting back to my question, which you refuse to answer for some reason (like it might destroy your theology), John states, "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are" So from what John says how is John saying you can make that distinction?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Exactly.

And the reason is very clear. Jesus said that some "believe for a while", but in time of temptation, they fall away.

And Paul told Timothy in 1 Tim 4:1 that in "later times" some will fall away from the faith.

And, since Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, even those who cease to believe (and have been given eternal life) shall never perish.

Do you think that Jesus could ever be wrong?

So, in your understanding, does anything differently happen to those who believed and then stopped believing than those who overcame and kept believing throughout their time here on earth?

 

[Gr8Grace]

And yes, it's talking about measurable behavior, for he goes on in the next verse to say "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother"

And that's a major theme in 1John - how to distinguish between children of God and children of the devil.

If this verse was about how you and I can judge someones salvation. John would have used this word for "child."
New American Standard Bible
Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Honestly, we are specifically commanded not to judge someones heart/right lobe of the brain because only God knows.

The major theme through out John's epistles is he is a teacher to students.......to ' little children.' John had charge of around 7 DOCTRINAL churches through out his life.

Just take the debate of eternal security for example. Those who believe in loss of salvation manifest that they are STUDENTS/children of the devil(cosmic system.) Yet, they are still a son of God. Because they were saved the moment they believed.

Since we are commanded not to judge someones salvation. I don't think John is giving us guidelines to 'see' or judge if someone is really saved or not.

 

[bcbsr]

If this verse was about how you and I can judge someones salvation. John would have used this word for "child."
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Since we are commanded not to judge someones salvation. I don't think John is giving us guidelines to 'see' or judge if someone is really saved or not.

Your propositions are irrational and unsubstantiated. But thanks for sharing your opinion. Reasonable people will see the weakness of your interpretation.

Now about your hypothesis that "we are commanded not to judge someones salvation", Bible teaches contrary to that, not only throughout 1John, but many other places.

But concerning 1John consider:

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John judges other people based upon whether or not they remain in the faith.

1John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

John instructs us to perceive whether other people are children of God or children of the devil based upon their behavior.

1John 3:7,8 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil

John instructs us not to be led astray (by Free Grace Theology) into thinking that a person who lives in sin is of God.

1John 4:6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

John instructs us that those who don't listen to the apostles teachings are not of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've answered your question. You just haven't listened. No, there are not just "2 possible understandings" as you allege.

How many then? And if the answer is 'just one', then if you have EVER sinned after believing in Christ, then you yourself have NOT BEEN born again.

As I said, and as I elaborated in my study guides, which apparently you didn't bother to read before bearing false witness against me, John is using the present tense to indicate characteristic behavior.

And that's my point as well. Believers CAN act like the devil's children.

And I'm not interested in your study guides, after reading over your diatribe on FG theology, which is riddled with inaccuracies.

That is, what is characteristic of one's lifestyle. The aorist tense he's using to indicate point in time events and uncharacteristic behavior.

1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

By this he is not denying that those born of God sin from time to time, but uncharacteristically.

Actually, the verse is so clear that your statement is just laughable. There is nothing about "uncharacteristically" in v.9. Zero.

He is using the present tense to indicate that those born of God don't live in sin.

It doesn't mean or say that. As you well know.

The reason why is due to the nature of regeneration as he states.

So, what is the reason one who has been regenerated doesn't sin?

The ONLY sane answer is that no believer can sin from his new nature.

Do you even believe that the regenerated believer now has 2 natures? Seems you don't, since you've not acknowledged my point about it.

How about you? Do you life a lifestyle of sin.

Nope. But I still sin. And v.9 says "one born of God does not continue to sin".

Do you continue to sin?

Is sinning characteristic of your life? If so, then what does this verse say about you?

It doesn't suggest anything close to what you are claiming. And I explained what it means.

And yes, it's talking about measurable behavior, for he goes on in the next verse to say "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother"

And that's a major theme in 1John - how to distinguish between children of God and children of the devil.

Hardly. We CAN know how to recognize behavior that resembles the devil's children.

iow, believers CAN and DO (unfortunately) live "like the devil".

Now getting back to my question, which you refuse to answer for some reason (like it might destroy your theology), John states, "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are" So from what John says how is John saying you can make that distinction?

You have NEVER answered my question about whether you continue to sin. I don't care about your study guides. Tell the thread now your answer.

As to your question, it has a false premise, that John is explaining how to know who is a believer and who isn't a believer. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

Do you continue to sin? That will tell us whether you have been born again, or not, based on your own claim.

The thread awaits your answer.

And you know you're in a corner.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, in your understanding, does anything differently happen to those who believed and then stopped believing than those who overcame and kept believing throughout their time here on earth?

Sure. Lots. Believers who quit will face God's discipline, which, according to Heb 12:11 is painful. They will be denied blessings during their lifetime, and loss of reward in eternity. Isa 1:18-20 was given to Israel, but the principle hasn't been rescinded.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Now about your hypothesis that "we are commanded not to judge someones salvation", Bible teaches contrary to that, not only throughout 1John, but many other places.

1John 2:19

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John judges other people based upon whether or not they remain in the faith.

John is not judging their salvation. He is judging if they are being a student of God or a student of the devil. Believers are promised they will never perish. And John knew this fact. A loser believer will leave a doctrinal church and seek out teachers that will tickle their ears.......the loss of salvation crowd would have not remained with John and his teachings......but he would not judge their salvation. That is up to GOD and God alone.

1John 3:10

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

John instructs us to perceive whether other people are children of God or children of the devil based upon their behavior.

John knew that believers will never perish. And knew salvation was up to God and God alone. So John instructs us to perceive and judge their DOCTRINES. A Student of God manifests themselves through the teachings of God. A loser believer, babe in Christ or someone who gets saved and never opens the bible to become a student of His manifests themselves as a student of the devil. Still saved though. Because the moment they believed God saved them.

1John 3:7,8

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil

John instructs us not to be led astray (by Free Grace Theology) into thinking that a person who lives in sin is of God.

A believer who lives in sin is not of God. They are of the devil. And misery and discipline is the trademark of their life........saved, but as if through fire.

1John 4:6

We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

John instructs us that those who don't listen to the apostles teachings are not of God.

Doctrinal believers are from God. They KNOW God.....because they study to show themselves approved. His doctrines reveal the Spirit of truth and shines light on what is false. Believers who don't study to show themselves approved and have never placed themselves under authority of his or her right pastor teacher(John in this case,they won't listen to him) can't recognize the Spirit of truth and discern what is false........they are still saved though. John knew that believers will never perish and that salvation is up to God and God alone.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

John is not judging their salvation. He is judging if they are being a student of God or a student of the devil. Believers are promised they will never perish. And John knew this fact. A loser believer will leave a doctrinal church and seek out teachers that will tickle their ears.......the loss of salvation crowd would have not remained with John and his teachings......but he would not judge their salvation. That is up to GOD and God alone.


John knew that believers will never perish. And knew salvation was up to God and God alone. So John instructs us to perceive and judge their DOCTRINES. A Student of God manifests themselves through the teachings of God. A loser believer, babe in Christ or someone who gets saved and never opens the bible to become a student of His manifests themselves as a student of the devil. Still saved though. Because the moment they believed God saved them.


A believer who lives in sin is not of God. They are of the devil. And misery and discipline is the trademark of their life........saved, but as if through fire.



Doctrinal believers are from God. They KNOW God.....because they study to show themselves approved. His doctrines reveal the Spirit of truth and shines light on what is false. Believers who don't study to show themselves approved and have never placed themselves under authority of his or her right pastor teacher(John in this case,they won't listen to him) can't recognize the Spirit of truth and discern what is false........they are still saved though. John knew that believers will never perish and that salvation is up to God and God alone.

No. what you wrote is not correct. Based on what I read that you wrote above, which of the following things you said must apply to you? Does that mean: (1) you don't know God, (2) you haven't studied to show yourself approved, or (3) you are a believer "of the devil"? This is a very different doctrine, what church teaches this (since, according to your words above, you clearly must have placed yourself under a pastor teacher's authority who tells you what is right or wrong?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Sure. Lots. Believers who quit will face God's discipline, which, according to Heb 12:11 is painful. They will be denied blessings during their lifetime, and loss of reward in eternity. Isa 1:18-20 was given to Israel, but the principle hasn't been rescinded.

So are you saying that only believers who quit will face God's discipline?

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. what you wrote is not correct.

Before you go on, please explain how I'm not correct. This is just an opinion, without any evidence.

Based on what I read that you wrote above, which of the following things you said must apply to you? Does that mean: (1) you don't know God, (2) you haven't studied to show yourself approved, or (3) you are a believer "of the devil"?[

None of these silly things.

1. I know God.
2. I have studied and have shown myself approved.
3. I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

How do you come up with such absurdities?

This is a very different doctrine, what church teaches this (since, according to your words above, you clearly must have placed yourself under a pastor teacher's authority who tells you what is right or wrong?

I'm quite familiar with the Bible. What you consider a "very different doctrine" obviously is to you. But that's on your studying skills, or that of your pastor's.

I still don't know what you consider so "unusual" in my theology.

Could you at least spell it out?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Sure. Lots. Believers who quit will face God's discipline, which, according to Heb 12:11 is painful. They will be denied blessings during their lifetime, and loss of reward in eternity. Isa 1:18-20 was given to Israel, but the principle hasn't been rescinded."

So are you saying that only believers who quit will face God's discipline?

Didn't you read my statement above? You quoted it in your response.

Look at the first line.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Before you go on, please explain how I'm not correct. This is just an opinion, without any evidence.


None of these silly things.

1. I know God.
2. I have studied and have shown myself approved.
3. I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

How do you come up with such absurdities?


I'm quite familiar with the Bible. What you consider a "very different doctrine" obviously is to you. But that's on your studying skills, or that of your pastor's.

I still don't know what you consider so "unusual" in my theology.

Could you at least spell it out?

You do realize you responded to my post to Gr8Grace, right? And, I didn't come up with those absurdities, it was the Gr8Grace--which is why I asked that Gr8Grace which one applied to them and what the name of the church that came up with that doctrine was.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I said:
"Sure. Lots. Believers who quit will face God's discipline, which, according to Heb 12:11 is painful. They will be denied blessings during their lifetime, and loss of reward in eternity. Isa 1:18-20 was given to Israel, but the principle hasn't been rescinded."

Didn't you read my statement above? You quoted it in your response.

Look at the first line.

But, that isn't what God said through Hebrews. God said much more that included: "And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children: 'My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him.' For whom the Lord loves, He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But, if you be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence; shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live? For they verily for a few days chasten us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness." (Heb 12:5-10)

Then he said Heb 12:11.

So your confirmed statement that "only believers who quit will face God's discipline" is not consistent with Scripture. In fact, according to Scripture, it is legitimate sons who receive discipline and those without chastisement are bastards and not sons.

 

[Gr8Grace]

No. what you wrote is not correct.

Yes, it is correct.

Based on what I read that you wrote above, which of the following things you said must apply to you? Does that mean: (1) you don't know God, (2) you haven't studied to show yourself approved, or (3) you are a believer "of the devil"? This is a very different doctrine, what church teaches this (since, according to your words above, you clearly must have placed yourself under a pastor teacher's authority who tells you what is right or wrong?

No Idea what you are saying. What can I clarify for you?

I can assure you that John is not teaching us to judge and see if someone is saved. He is teaching us to work out our OWN salvation. Johns whole premise is to advance believers in their Christian life. Not to scrutinize who is really saved or not.

How is any believer going to advance in their PERSONAL relationship with Christ, if John is just teaching us to judge someone else's salvation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You do realize you responded to my post to Gr8Grace, right?

I always know who I post to.

And, I didn't come up with those absurdities, it was the Gr8Grace--which is why I asked that Gr8Grace which one applied to them and what the name of the church that came up with that doctrine was.

I haven't found any absurdities in Gr8grace's posts, so please explain what is absurd.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So your confirmed statement that "only believers who quit will face God's discipline" is not consistent with Scripture.

Since I never said "only believers who..." please cite the post # so all can see your claim.

In fact, according to Scripture, it is legitimate sons who receive discipline and those without chastisement are bastards and not sons.

The false premise in your statement here is that believers who cease to believe somehow, magically and mystically, become non-sons. Or is it un-sons?

Kinda like being unsealed, or un-born again.