2 Questions

[holyrokker]

So man is not born in need of a Savior?

Another loaded question. It's like asking "When did you stop beating your wife?"


The reason I cited James 1:13-15 is that it shows a process.
1) tempted by own (individual) desires
2) desire gives birth to sin (notice that sin is not present beforehand)
3) sin brings forth death

You had asked, "is man a sinner from birth or does he become a sinner upon sinning?" This passage indicates that sin does not proceed from a pre-existing sinful condition.

 

[squint]

Another loaded question. It's like asking "When did you stop beating your wife?"


The reason I cited James 1:13-15 is that it shows a process.
1) tempted by own (individual) desires
2) desire gives birth to sin (notice that sin is not present beforehand)
3) sin brings forth death

You had asked, "is man a sinner from birth or does he become a sinner upon sinning?" This passage indicates that sin does not proceed from a pre-existing sinful condition.

Sorry, your math has a severe issue. Obviously the "desire" to sin was present. Jesus told us that even the 'thought' of adultery was the same as committing same in heart.

We know from scripture that sin "entered" Adam, and thereby entered the ENTIRETY of this present world.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You might also note that Paul termed the "sin indwelling" his own flesh NO LONGER I twice in the 7th chapter of Romans. IF the sin indwelling Paul was "NO LONGER I" then just WHO was that sin OF?

The old man, the carnal man will never see the reality of that statement from Paul because he does not DIVIDE himself from the sin indwelling his flesh and therefore serves as A SLAVE of sin, thinking it's ONLY OF HIMSELF.

Even "believers" still carry the desire to blame not only themselves, but their fellow man as well. This too is an action of the carnal man who still thinks sin indwelling is ONLY OF THEMSELVES (or more accurately the other person.)

The new man will understand who SIN IS OF and will not count sins against mankind, but sins will be accounted and judged and punished, but not unto MANKIND. Mankind pays the penalty of death in the flesh, and believers know they are to account their flesh DEAD already because of WHAT IS IN IT.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

In the light of Word disclosures, it is absurd to ask how and why sin starts as it pertains to MANKIND because it really a DEVIL kind of action and ALL FLESH save One Jesus, is and remains subject to the actions of sins influences AT ANY TIME in ANY FLESH.

Seeking how and when SIN starts SO ONE CAN BLAME AND ACCUSE and CONDEMN mankind for SIN is quite ridiculous.

enjoy!

squint

 

[holyrokker]

Desire to sin and sinning are two different things. Jesus was tempted. He did not sin.

In the light of Word disclosures, it is absurd to ask how and why sin starts as it pertains to MANKIND because it really a DEVIL kind of action and ALL FLESH save One Jesus, is and remains subject to the actions of sins influences AT ANY TIME in ANY FLESH

James 1:13-15 is concerned with how and why sin begins in a man's heart.

 

[squint]

Desire to sin and sinning are two different things. Jesus was tempted. He did not sin.

So perhaps you'd like to clarify that Jesus desired to sin but didn't go through with it as an action?

James 1:13-15 is concerned with how and why sin begins in a man's heart.

Whatever sins indwell the flesh are particular to that person, making it THEIRS as it pertains to THEIR flesh. This does not make people the same as the sin that indwells them any more than Paul described the sin that indwelt his flesh, calling it NO LONGER I.

The devil is up to his eyeballs in sin, and sins of the devil are not counted against mankind.

 

[holyrokker]

So perhaps you'd like to clarify that Jesus desired to sin but didn't go through with it as an action?

Jesus was tempted, just like we are (Hebrews 4:15).
According to James 1:13 we are tempted when we are enticed by our own desires. It isn't a desire to sin, it is normal physical desires. We have physical desires (for food, sex, etc.) Jesus was tempted with physical desire food because He had a physical body that had physical needs and physical desires.
Jesus did not desire to sin.

 

[squint]

Jesus was tempted, just like we are (Hebrews 4:15).

So, Jesus may have had, for example, an adulterous thought?

According to James 1:13 we are tempted when we are enticed by our own desires. It isn't a desire to sin, it is normal physical desires.

So it's normal to desire to sin? Like our "sin nature?"

We have physical desires (for food, sex, etc.) Jesus was tempted with physical desire food because He had a physical body that had physical needs and physical desires.
Jesus did not desire to sin.

You appear to have a double standard going on here. You say Jesus was tempted with desire of food because His Body had physical needs, and physical desires, but then you say that Jesus had no desire to sin. If Jesus had "desire" why would you stop that desire at "food" and not extend that desire to "sin?"

You say Jesus was tempted "like we are." Why not extend that temptation off of food and onto LUST. Here is what the KJV states for James' "each man's temptation:"

James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust

So I ask again, was Jesus tempted by "lust?"

 

[armothe]

So, Jesus may have had, for example, an adulterous thought?

Sexual, possibly, but I wouldn't think adulterous.

James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust

So I ask again, was Jesus tempted by "lust?"

You pretty much answered your own question. Temptation is the next step after lust, so for Jesus to be tempted He must have lusted after something. The desire to eat during 40 days in the desert was probably very strong - to the point that's all He could think about. Fortunately he didn't let that longing desire consume him and was able to remain focused on the Father and His mission on earth.

-A

 

[squint]

Sexual, possibly, but I wouldn't think adulterous.

Why not adulterous?

You pretty much answered your own question. Temptation is the next step after lust, so for Jesus to be tempted He must have lusted after something. The desire to eat during 40 days in the desert was probably very strong - to the point that's all He could think about. Fortunately he didn't let that longing desire consume him and was able to remain focused on the Father and His mission on earth.

Wasn't aware that eating or the desire to eat is a sin or even a temptation anymore than having to breathe.

I ask these questions only to point out the fact that Jesus was apart from sin and had NO SIN. Temptation came "apart" from within, via THE TEMPTOR.

enjoy!

squint

 

[armothe]

Why not adulterous?

Adultery signifies some sort of marriage being involved. Since Jesus never sinned (nor was married) its easy to figure that he never had adulterous thoughts.

Wasn't aware that eating or the desire to eat is a sin or even a temptation anymore than having to breathe.

Desire isn't temptation or sin at all, James makes that pretty clear.
The order is: 1) desire 2)lust 3)temptation 4)sin
Each gives way to something that is closer to seperation from God.

A desire to eat, can turn into a lust to eat, which turns into gluttony which violates the commandment to keep our temples holy for the indwelling of God.

I ask these questions only to point out the fact that Jesus was apart from sin and had NO SIN. Temptation came "apart" from within, via THE TEMPTOR.

This is a good point to bring up. In scripture we see individuals being a) tempted by their own volitions and/or b) tempted by Satan.

Satan was needed to nudge Adam, as well as Christ to fulfill God's holy will. I'm sure Christ had desires, but more than likely was not tempted from within - which is why the external tool, Satan, was utilized in this situation.

-A

 

[squint]

Adultery signifies some sort of marriage being involved. Since Jesus never sinned (nor was married) its easy to figure that he never had adulterous thoughts.

I will accept your "spiritual connection" on that one. I also see that "adultery" is not necessarily a physical action. The Law is Spiritual and is therefore to be spiritually discerned. Jesus never "mingled" with Satan nor did He "lie" with that man in any way, shape or form, nor with Satan's bride, the Harlot of Babylon.

Desire isn't temptation or sin at all, James makes that pretty clear.
The order is: 1) desire 2)lust 3)temptation 4)sin
Each gives way to something that is closer to seperation from God.

A desire to eat, can turn into a lust to eat, which turns into gluttony which violates the commandment to keep our temples holy for the indwelling of God.

This is a good point to bring up. In scripture we see individuals being a) tempted by their own volitions and/or b) tempted by Satan.

Here is another piece O' Bread on this matter. I don't count the workings of Satan in the flesh as being of Gods offspring, whom all mankind ARE. dig? Though the "entry" of the anti-Christ into the flesh does make that entry "theirs" as it pertains to their flesh being their flesh, FLESH was made "subject to" that working of Satan as scripture well shows. I do not mark or mar by fellow man by that working. They as we are slaves in the flesh to THAT IMPetus when sin transpires, but "he who commits sin is of the DEVIL" and that's just the way it is with THE DEVIL in the flesh. Gods offspring will SERVE HIM in Divine Judgment on all of these matters in carrying those things to our "respective crosses."

Satan was needed to nudge Adam, as well as Christ to fulfill God's holy will. I'm sure Christ had desires, but more than likely was not tempted from within - which is why the external tool, Satan, was utilized in this situation.

Perhaps we see closely on these matters. God made Satan and bound ALL to that working in the flesh and in that process we all SUFFER LONG and longingly, which is of course A Divine Characteristic of LOVE instilled IN US in the process. In this working Satan then serves Gods temporal purposes in forming and gaining LOVE amidst ADVERSITY.

enjoy!

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[Reformationist]

I've been away for a few days but figured that this was worth correcting, as it is based, once again, on an inaccurate understanding of the passage and, in this case, does violence to the biblical revelation of Christ's nature.

Desire to sin and sinning are two different things.

Desire for that which God forbade and the act of doing that which was forbidden by Him are, in essence, both sin. To imply that Christ ever desired that which was contrary to God's Law is to contend that Christ sinned.

Jesus was tempted. He did not sin.

This is actually an oft misunderstood claim. There are two types of temptation between which a distinction must be made to properly understand this sentiment. There is an external temptation and an internal temptation. To be externally tempted refers to the actions of an external and separate entity that attempts to influence, e.g., "I tempted him to make the trade by offering something I believe he wanted." This is not to imply that the object of one's attempt to influence actually feels tempted to succumb to the attempts of the tempter. This is to be regarded as different than the reference to one's own feelings of temption, e.g., "I was tempted to give into his demands to avoid any further confrontation." As you can see, there is a subtle but definitive difference between feeling temptation and being on the receiving end of it.

The passage to which you refer, Hebrews 4:15 reflects the external temptation of Christ:

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

James 1:13-15 is concerned with how and why sin begins in a man's heart.

First, this passage does not address the issue of man's fall. It deals with how sin is birthed from the heart of an already fallen being.

The error you make is in assuming that there is a definitive difference between a desire for something which God had forbidden and commission of an overt violation of God's Law. There simply isn't.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Desire isn't temptation or sin at all, James makes that pretty clear.
The order is: 1) desire 2)lust 3)temptation 4)sin
Each gives way to something that is closer to seperation from God.

A desire to eat, can turn into a lust to eat, which turns into gluttony which violates the commandment to keep our temples holy for the indwelling of God.

The point you seem to be overlooking is that God has not forbidden you to eat. A desire to fornicate, on the other hand, is most certainly sinful, as God has forbidden it.

God bless

 

[stranger]

Hello everyone. This is my first post here and am amazed and the extensiveness of the coverage of the forums.

Anyways, I just have a few questions.

1. Who created the supposedly evil serpent? I thought everything God created was good?

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Evil is simply apparently excessive destruction ... God has a USE for this world and then it is destroyed by Him :-

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Thus God USES evil for good in the end , it does not mena that men will necessarily understand the END even though it is written down for almost anyone to read , only that God guarantees that all creation will accept His way in the end, see that it was good to use evil against evil , allow it to see itself for what it is ...

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

2. Why are we "punished" because of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God's order not to eat from the tree? Adam and Eve did not know what good and evil was prior to the eating of the fruit; ergo, even though they actually disobeyed God's order, they did not know it was wrong (to disobey God, that is). Eating the fruit was, for them, value neutral, similar to choosing to go east or west when wandering around Eden.

Only men invented that idea, no man is punished for another mna's sins :-

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Adam was indeed innocent at the time he disobeyed God , not knowing good from evil until AFTER eating the 'fruit' of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...

Thus there was no such 'original sin' in that act as many now claim, obviously against God's scripture ... nor could any sin of Adam be held against his sons, nor any descendant beyond himself, to no man then !

Nor are men locked into sin any more after spirit baptism , but depart from sin :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Thus your questions should really be why does religion of tradition of men have it so very wrong, even mainlinbe christianity ?

The bible answers that too... but that is on other threads

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[Kristos]

Hello everyone. This is my first post here and am amazed and the extensiveness of the coverage of the forums.

Anyways, I just have a few questions.

1. Who created the supposedly evil serpent? I thought everything God created was good?

2. Why are we "punished" because of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God's order not to eat from the tree? Adam and Eve did not know what good and evil was prior to the eating of the fruit; ergo, even though they actually disobeyed God's order, they did not know it was wrong (to disobey God, that is). Eating the fruit was, for them, value neutral, similar to choosing to go east or west when wandering around Eden.

I'll be anticipating your insights. Thanks.

1 - Yes, everything God created is good. Evil is not created, it is disobedience to God.

2 - We are not punished for Adams sin. Even Adam wasn't "punished" by God. Mortality was the result of his disobedience, but not a punishment. If mortality was simply a punishment, then wouldn't the punishment end we had learned our lesson? Who gives their kids an indefinate timeout? We are mortal because Adam became mortal through his disobedience. We do not inherit some sort of guilt from Adam, only his mortality. For Adam, sin lead the way, followed by death. For us mortality comes first followed by sin. Our will is weak just as Adams. In Christ's two wills, human and divineHIs human will is obedient to HIs divine will. Through HIs obedience, His salvation brings healing to our will. Therefore, "many" this, those who believe in CHrist, are "made Righteous" and able by grace to participate WILLFULLY by faith in God's righteousness.

 

[stranger]

1 - Yes, everything God created is good. Evil is not created, it is disobedience to God.

You are speaking directly against scripture :-

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil I the LORD do all these things.

 

[stranger]

those who believe in CHrist, are "made Righteous" and able by grace to participate WILLFULLY by faith in God's righteousness.

Righteousness is too obey the law, the law is the commandment of Jesus to love ... any sin is this unrighteous because it is breaking the law of love set by God...

any sinner is thus unrighteous ,not righteous... Jesus came to make sinners into saints, to make people depart from sin, not to continue sinning and pretend they are righteous as sinners :-

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Jesus has even stated explicity that he will leave behind anyone who is still a sinner by his return :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[armothe]

You are speaking directly against scripture :-

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil I the LORD do all these things.

Evil in those instances are translated 'calamity' or 'ill-fortune'. Wickedness does not proceed from God.

-A

 

[squint]

Evil in those instances are translated 'calamity' or 'ill-fortune'. Wickedness does not proceed from God.

-A

All things were made by God for His Pleasure. (Rev. 4:11)

Evil did not just pop up out of nowhere, entirely on it's own. If ANYTHING exists, it exists because of GOD.

God will take a great delight in putting EVIL away permanently when it is done SERVING HIM.

enjoy!

squint

 

[stranger]

Evil in those instances are translated 'calamity' or 'ill-fortune'. Wickedness does not proceed from God.
-A

Re-translating the bible to say what one wants it to say is a common enough trick by sinners... but won't wash with God :-

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Try to re-translate this one then ?

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul...

or this ? :-

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Eventually you may eill have to accept that God says what He menas, not what you have decided you want to hear by listening the the world of sinners and what they want to hear and believe .... ?

 

[stranger]

All things were made by God for His Pleasure. (Rev. 4:11)

Evil did not just pop up out of nowhere, entirely on it's own. If ANYTHING exists, it exists because of GOD.

God will take a great delight in putting EVIL away permanently when it is done SERVING HIM.

enjoy!

squint

Good script , but even this does not go as far as scripture does ....

When one discovers that Satan was in Eden as the serpent and stands at teh very left hand of God as the covering cherub, then one might begin perhaps to see that the divided religion of sinners really cannot stand as the truth of God... that Satan was only created to show perfectly that no OTHER way of salvation than the seal of God, to DEPART completely from sin, is possible...

Ezek 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Satan is thus half of the two closest to God at His throne, Jesus stands at the right-hand so Satan is on the left, but both look alike to God , the two cherubim at the mercy seat are made IDENTICAL ... both have the face of a man at one stage, both have a period of destructive power in the earth as a lion, both end up on eagles wings as the spirit when all created beings submit to Jesus as lord :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

It would probably be accepted by most that Satan is in charge of the evil of this earth , but few realise that the most powerful evil is mediated through the corrupted divided religion of mankind pretendng that it is from God.... the blaspemy of the final antichrist can only come to its fruition ["Thess 2:4] by the uniting of all the world in religious worship of the image of a Christ created by Satan himself [Rev 13:3-8] ... only non-sinners will resist, the few saints of Rev 7:3-8 ... perhaps as few as two thousand scattered indivisuals worldwide alive at any oe time [for the saints are always on the earth, at no time does God allow them to be utterly wiped out though they are repeatedly killed and persecuted by all men for simply saying the truth, just as Jesus was ... baptism of 'fire' , the trial of faith which scripture says is the necessary perfection of love before translation to spirit ...

So the purpose of God in creating Satan and havoing him next to God , sharuing half God's power , given almost all men to corrupt into sinners and invenmt a religion where sinners do not have to depart from iniquity, that fails of course at Jesus' return? :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Why then craete Satan just to destroy him after manifesting as a man, to prove he is not the god he comes to think he is because almost all men follow him as sinners, not becoming saints before Jesus' return...?

the purpose is rather obvious, Satan tries perfectly to show that there is another god than God, that there is another way to etrnity than perfect love with no sin... he fails of course and that is the glory of God in him, that eh has shown that sin fails EVERYONE , and Jesus shows on the other hand that perfect love DOES lead to eternity, and that 144,000 already follow him by his return, showing that love can and does work... Satan shows then that love is the ONLY way, that there is no alternative, that one cannot sneak into paradise as a sinner ...no matter what Satan teaches through religion of sinners now...

the seal of God, His very foundation, is love, departing from sin ... grace then is only for the few whom it says it is for [Heb 8:8-12] God never made any covenant in scripture with everyone for His grace because only the few who are firts fruits need it, everyone else is freed from sin by death and starts afresh in the kingdom come, where Jesus rules, not Satan ... tis' stan rules almost all men in this world, only the saints ave the kingdom in their hearts and minds now...