2 more school (college) shootings right now. Texas and Arizona.

[MikeK]

So you are saying that I can buy a fully automatic machine gun, just like I can buy a Glock pistol?

You will have to submit to fingerprinting, pay a tax and endure a more thorough background check, but you sure can. I have friends with full autos. Be warned though, since President Reagan's action in 1986, they have become quite pricey. I remember when registered auto-sears for AR-15s were under $200 and full-auto Mac 10s were under $300.

 

[Erose]

You will have to submit to fingerprinting, pay a tax and endure a more thorough background check, but you sure can. I have friends with full autos. Be warned though, since President Reagan's action in 1986, they have become quite pricey. I remember when registered auto-sears for AR-15s were under $200 and full-auto Mac 10s were under $300.

But is not as easy nor as accessible as buying a pistol is it? That is my point here. Do you want to make it as difficult to by a pistol as it is to buy a M60 machine gun? And if you do, how is that not restriction of gun rights? If I need permission from law enforcement to buy a simple hand gun, a permission that can be denied by the way; how is that not restriction?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the far majority of crimes committed using a firearm is pistols or handguns. AR-15s and AK-47s are not as easily concealed, and not as cheap as a simple hand gun. So if you want to target the primary firearms used in crimes then you are going to have to target pistols and hand guns.

 

[tadoflamb]

Yes.
We live in an age where people crave fame above all else. The media provides this to this crime, which is assured coverage in every media outlet and in every social media discussion.

The kid in Flagstaff wasn't craving fame. He was just a gun lover practicing his 2nd Amendment rights who happened to exhibit an amazingly poor lack of judgement. So poor, he probably shouldn't have owned a firearm.

If anything, he's just another victim of America's gun culture of death in which he played his part.

 

[tadoflamb]

Every gun used in a crime in America today was originally owned by a legal owner. It's the so-called 'responsible' gun owners who have created this culture of death. They themselves admit that firearms are easily purchased on the black market. A market they created.

And yet, there's no accountability. Die hard gun advocates want to keep the status quo. Because they spurn any kind of meaningful regulations, the flow of firearms goes into the black market unchecked and the bodies keep piling up.

Jeb Bush wrapped up the callous attitude of the gun lobby most succinctly when he said, "Stuff happens".

 

[MikeK]

But is not as easy nor as accessible as buying a pistol is it? That is my point here. Do you want to make it as difficult to by a pistol as it is to buy a M60 machine gun? And if you do, how is that not restriction of gun rights? If I need permission from law enforcement to buy a simple hand gun, a permission that can be denied by the way; how is that not restriction?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the far majority of crimes committed using a firearm is pistols or handguns. AR-15s and AK-47s are not as easily concealed, and not as cheap as a simple hand gun. So if you want to target the primary firearms used in crimes then you are going to have to target pistols and hand guns.

We don't have to adopt class 3 rules in whole, we can elect to use what works (the registration and background check portion) and omit what isn't necessary (fingerprinting, LEO letter, tax stamp). Sound good?

 

[Erose]

We don't have to adopt class 3 rules in whole, we can elect to use what works (the registration and background check portion) and omit what isn't necessary (fingerprinting, LEO letter, tax stamp). Sound good?

The registration and background check is in place already, unless you are speaking of used firearms. That's all fine but I don't see how that is going to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. The only people who are going to follow the process are the law abiders since this can only be done by volunteering only. So again we are back to the question on how you going to enforce it?

 

[SolomonVII]

The kid in Flagstaff wasn't craving fame. He was just a gun lover practicing his 2nd Amendment rights who happened to exhibit an amazingly poor lack of judgement. So poor, he probably shouldn't have owned a firearm.

If anything, he's just another victim of America's gun culture of death in which he played his part.

If you say so. ...

 

[Erose]

Every gun used in a crime in America today was originally owned by a legal owner. It's the so-called 'responsible' gun owners who have created this culture of death. They themselves admit that firearms are easily purchased on the black market. A market they created.

And yet, there's no accountability. Die hard gun advocates want to keep the status quo. Because they spurn any kind of meaningful regulations, the flow of firearms goes into the black market unchecked and the bodies keep piling up.

Jeb Bush wrapped up the callous attitude of the gun lobby most succinctly when he said, "Stuff happens".

Got it Tad, every gun-owner in your opinion is a criminal.

 

[SolomonVII]

The registration and background check is in place already, unless you are speaking of used firearms. That's all fine but I don't see how that is going to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. The only people who are going to follow the process are the law abiders since this can only be done by volunteering only. So again we are back to the question on how you going to enforce it?

We are entering the age of 3d printers where to control the proliferation of guns is no longer going to be a practical possibility, if indeed it ever has been in America.
I mean,every time the president opens his mouth, gun sales go through the roof, and the dealers do five years business in a matter of weeks, in anticipation of what is coming down the pipes.

What can be enforced is what has been proven by the Guiliani/Bloomberg mayor-ships in NYC. Directing policing to who the police on the street themselves deem to be the potential problems is something that brings the murder rate down significantly, exponentially even.
It takes police work. It takes law and order. It takes leg work and people on the street getting their hands dirty.
That is how crime must be dealt with. There is no short cuts here.

 

[MikeK]

The registration and background check is in place already, unless you are speaking of used firearms. That's all fine but I don't see how that is going to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. The only people who are going to follow the process are the law abiders since this can only be done by volunteering only. So again we are back to the question on how you going to enforce it?

We arrest anyone in possession of an unregistered firearm and we track which people habitually "lose" firearms to help us thwart the illegal trafficking of guns to felons, the insane, and others who are legally prevented from possessing them. There is no reliable way today for me to know that the guy buying my gun isn't a felon or isn't insane. There is no good chance of catching the guy who makes a quick buck selling guns to teenagers. Let's change that.

What registration are you saying is "in place already?" There is no national registration system except for class 3s and municipal systems cannot work for obvious reasons.

 

[Erose]

We arrest anyone in possession of an unregistered firearm and we track which people habitually "lose" firearms to help us thwart the illegal trafficking of guns to felons, the insane, and others who are legally prevented from possessing them.

How? You going to search everyone's home?

There is no reliable way today for me to know that the guy buying my gun isn't a felon or isn't insane.

This wouldn't be so bad, except for seeing that there will be lawsuits for dispensing private person information.

There is no good chance of catching the guy who makes a quick buck selling guns to teenagers. Let's change that.

How? Like I said, you are relying on people to be honest. Criminals by nature aren't going to be honest. There is already too many guns on the streets, even in those states and cities that have the heaviest gun control laws.

What registration are you saying is "in place already?" There is no national registration system except for class 3s and municipal systems cannot work for obvious reasons.

There isn't? The last few guns I bought new, I and the dealer had to fill out information that included the gun's serial number, and my personal information and then info was relayed directly to the FBI person that was doing my background check. So in some database at the FBI there is a serial number for my guns with my name next to it.

 

[Erose]

Mike,

One thing that should be reviewed is the success of gun registration has had where it has been utilized in those states and cities that have gun registration laws. Are they being successful in these locals? If so how? If not then why not?

Personally I am not for adding a new law on this matter, because it isn't going to accomplish anything anyway. Mass murderers will still pop up from time to time and these murderers will figure out how to kill. Perhaps taking guns away from people, will make the mass murders even worse, as they my start using weapons of mass destruction instead of point destruction.

With what I personally own, if I decided to go on a rampage and kill as many people as I could, the last thing I would use is a gun anyway. Arson, which is the easiest way, or a heavy vehicle in an area with a dense concentration of people, would be the best methods to take out as many folks as possible.

The only type of law change in my opinion that would work would be to address the issue of mental illness head on. Examine those countries that do not have cases of mass murderers and see what they are doing differently than our mental health care system, and try to emulate. If they are doing nothing significantly different, then spend some money to research what triggers there are in society that is creating these types of people.

Removing or banning guns from society...well that ship sailed a long time ago. It isn't going to happen. One thing that has to be understood, is that personal freedom does have negative consequences. It always has. To eliminate and or minimize those negative consequences requires a restriction of personal freedom. People will have to determine if eliminating mass murderers is worth having restrictions on personal freedom. With all things considered, though someone in this country has a greater risk of getting killed in a terrorist attack than to being killed in a mass murder; and as you and others have pointed out in other posts, the likelihood of such things are pretty much nil.

I pray for the families of those who lost their lives, and for those, and their families who have been tragically affected by these attacks.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

There's more than mass murders to consider, though, there are also suicides, including those of children who got their hands on a parents gun, and accidental shootings.

Mike,

One thing that should be reviewed is the success of gun registration has had where it has been utilized in those states and cities that have gun registration laws. Are they being successful in these locals? If so how? If not then why not?

Personally I am not for adding a new law on this matter, because it isn't going to accomplish anything anyway. Mass murderers will still pop up from time to time and these murderers will figure out how to kill. Perhaps taking guns away from people, will make the mass murders even worse, as they my start using weapons of mass destruction instead of point destruction.

With what I personally own, if I decided to go on a rampage and kill as many people as I could, the last thing I would use is a gun anyway. Arson, which is the easiest way, or a heavy vehicle in an area with a dense concentration of people, would be the best methods to take out as many folks as possible.

The only type of law change in my opinion that would work would be to address the issue of mental illness head on. Examine those countries that do not have cases of mass murderers and see what they are doing differently than our mental health care system, and try to emulate. If they are doing nothing significantly different, then spend some money to research what triggers there are in society that is creating these types of people.

Removing or banning guns from society...well that ship sailed a long time ago. It isn't going to happen. One thing that has to be understood, is that personal freedom does have negative consequences. It always has. To eliminate and or minimize those negative consequences requires a restriction of personal freedom. People will have to determine if eliminating mass murderers is worth having restrictions on personal freedom. With all things considered, though someone in this country has a greater risk of getting killed in a terrorist attack than to being killed in a mass murder; and as you and others have pointed out in other posts, the likelihood of such things are pretty much nil.

I pray for the families of those who lost their lives, and for those, and their families who have been tragically affected by these attacks.

 

[SolomonVII]

In terms of accidental deaths, poisons are higher on the list than guns.

All injury deaths

• Number of deaths: 192,945
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 60.2

All poisoning deaths

• Number of deaths: 48,545
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 15.4

Motor vehicle traffic deaths

• Number of deaths: 33,804
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.7

All firearm deaths

• Number of deaths: 33,636
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6

In terms of suicides, Sweden and Japan have more suicides per 100k than America.
Country Suicide rates per 100,000 people
South Korea 24.7
Hungary 21.0
Japan 19.4
Belgium 18.4
Finland 16.5
France 14.6
Austria 13.8
Poland 13.8
Czech Republic 12.7
New Zealand 11.9
Denmark 11.3
Sweden 11.1
Norway 10.9
Slovak Republic 10.9
Iceland 10.4
Germany 10.3
Canada 10.2
United States 10.1
Luxembourg 9.5
Portugal 8.7
Netherlands 7.9
Spain 6.3
Britain 6
Italy 5.5
Mexico 4.4
Greece 2.9

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

It's not as if we don't work to prevent poisoning, or that our suicide rate is lower than some other countries. Neither of those should prevent us from doing something about gun deaths.A 5th grade child, same age as my son, committed suicide in our community last week. The fact that some other country has a bigger problem is no comfort and will not factor in to how I share this news with my sons.
It may be useful to note that in our small county, with one of the countries highest suicide rates, all of the children who committed suicide in the past year used a gun.

In terms of accidental deaths, poisons are higher on the list than guns.



In terms of suicides, Sweden and Japan have more suicides per 100k than America.
Country Suicide rates per 100,000 people
South Korea 24.7
Hungary 21.0
Japan 19.4
Belgium 18.4
Finland 16.5
France 14.6
Austria 13.8
Poland 13.8
Czech Republic 12.7
New Zealand 11.9
Denmark 11.3
Sweden 11.1
Norway 10.9
Slovak Republic 10.9
Iceland 10.4
Germany 10.3
Canada 10.2
United States 10.1
Luxembourg 9.5
Portugal 8.7
Netherlands 7.9
Spain 6.3
Britain 6
Italy 5.5
Mexico 4.4
Greece 2.9

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html

 

[ShawnMCG]

Praying for everyone involved! It's tough to have to experience this in your city, neighborhood, families... Let's continue to shine as Christ in such a fallen and dark world. If anyone wants to talk about this tragic situation because it's effected you, please know you're not alone and that I'll be here to chat.

 

[SolomonVII]

It's not as if we don't work to prevent poisoning, or that our suicide rate is lower than some other countries. Neither of those should prevent us from doing something about gun deaths.A 5th grade child, same age as my son, committed suicide in our community last week. The fact that some other country has a bigger problem is no comfort and will not factor in to how I share this news with my sons.
It may be useful to note that in our small county, with one of the countries highest suicide rates, all of the children who committed suicide in the past year used a gun.

The fact of accidental poisonings, fatal vehicular accidents, and suicides by overdose or jumping off of bridges are not arguments against having household cleaners, cars, drugs or bridges.
If it was a matter of simply higher numbers, the preponderance of threads here would be on poisonings, and not on guns.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Except that cleaners, bridges and cars are pretty necessary, and I can do my best to observe good safety practices without rendering them useless. In my opinion, guns in the house aren't necessary, but if one argues they are for self defense against that home invasion, then they must be kept quickly and easily accessible or else be useless.
With cars, we don't allow children to drive, yet were supposed to trust even the youngest around an unsecured weapon? We keep chemicals locked away from kids, but guns on the nightstand or under the bed? Yet if you suggest registering guns like cars, and requiring gun users to be licensed and over 15, you get pushback. If you propose safety devices that only allow the owner to fire the gun, you might even get death threats from some gun enthusiasts. Nobody threatened the person who invented child locks for cabinets, or thinks it's a restriction of freedom that six year olds can't drive.

The fact of accidental poisonings, fatal vehicular accidents, and suicides by overdose or jumping off of bridges are not arguments against having household cleaners, cars, drugs or bridges.
If it was a matter of simply higher numbers, the preponderance of threads here would be on poisonings, and not on guns.

 

[Erose]

There's more than mass murders to consider, though, there are also suicides, including those of children who got their hands on a parents gun, and accidental shootings.

It's called education, but you will never get rid of accidental deaths, and if someone wants to kill themselves they aren't going to change their minds if they don't have access to a gun. So no it isn't something to consider, unless you want to wrap everyone up in impervious bubble wrap.

 

[Michie]

Is there a link you can provide Mountain Girl? I have been looking on the net and can't find anything. I was wondering if he was bullied or something else.

I live in a state with lots of guns, and we have the highest suicide rate in the US. My county itself has a high rate within the state.
This week it hit close to home, a young boy, elementary school aged and same age as my son, shot and killed himself. He may have even been a teammate of my son's, we'll find out Monday. Now I have to have a talk with my kids about this and I'm not sure how to go about it. Yet another family in my small town is devastated. ..this is one of an alarming number of recent child suicides.
While adults seem to consider various methods for suicide, all the recent suicides here by children were done with guns.