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1st world suicides

Kris_J

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Tomk80 said:
For me, sin means willfully doing something that is wrong. Murder belongs in that category. Does suicide belong in that category. I'm not sure.
I can somewhat agree with what much of you have posted - however I cannot agree that people cannot be sure that suicide is not willfully doing something wrong. Suicide is premeditated - how do we know its premeditated? Because people find the most painless way to die - & it takes rational to do this.

It is comparable to murder - where one can kill in a fit of rage -eg thoughtlessly bludgeoning someone with a telephone, or willfuly going to the bedroom, fetch the gun, fetch the bullet, load the gun, find the victim, aim & shoot.

Suicide is never grabbing a pair of scissors & stabbing oneself in the eye & brain. It is is willfull murder.
 
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The Bellman

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Kris_J said:
I can somewhat agree with what much of you have posted - however I cannot agree that people cannot be sure that suicide is not willfully doing something wrong. Suicide is premeditated - how do we know its premeditated? Because people find the most painless way to die - & it takes rational to do this.

It is comparable to murder - where one can kill in a fit of rage -eg thoughtlessly bludgeoning someone with a telephone, or willfuly going to the bedroom, fetch the gun, fetch the bullet, load the gun, find the victim, aim & shoot.

Suicide is never grabbing a pair of scissors & stabbing oneself in the eye & brain. It is is willfull murder.
Unless you're using the word 'murder' in a very broad sense, suicide isn't murder. Murder, by definition, is the killing of another human being by a human being without legal sanction. Suicide might be against your beliefs, but it's not murder.

I would also like to ask - would you hold someone accountable for a murder committed while they were mentally ill? Would such be a sin? For example, imagine a person with a severe psychosis. He genuinely believes that a certain person represents a grave threat to himself or to others (say, he believes this person is going to murder his family). Acting under this delusion, he kills the man, to protect himself/others. Legally, he would be not guilty of murder by reason of mental defect, and the fact that he may have spent considerable time planning it would not change the verdict. Would you hold him accountable? Would he have committed a sin?

Suicide is often the same. People plan it (often, as you stated, taking care to choose as painless a way as possible) long before doing it. However, if they are doing it while suffering from a mental illness (for example, clinical depression), are they to be held accountable? Should we condemn them (or at least their action) or pity them?

I think that once again here you are letting your prejudices about clinical depression (and possibly other mental illnesses) colour your thinking. You seem to think that people with clinical depression can simply 'snap out of it', perhaps by improving their relationships, and so suicide while suffering from it is not defensible, since they could easily have gotten out of it. Forgive me (and correct me) if I'm wrong, but this seems to be your take. And it's simply wrong.
 
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Kris_J

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The Bellman said:
Unless you're using the word 'murder' in a very broad sense, suicide isn't murder. Murder, by definition, is the killing of another human being by a human being without legal sanction. Suicide might be against your beliefs, but it's not murder.

I would also like to ask - would you hold someone accountable for a murder committed while they were mentally ill? Would such be a sin? For example, imagine a person with a severe psychosis. He genuinely believes that a certain person represents a grave threat to himself or to others (say, he believes this person is going to murder his family). Acting under this delusion, he kills the man, to protect himself/others. Legally, he would be not guilty of murder by reason of mental defect, and the fact that he may have spent considerable time planning it would not change the verdict. Would you hold him accountable? Would he have committed a sin?

Suicide is often the same. People plan it (often, as you stated, taking care to choose as painless a way as possible) long before doing it. However, if they are doing it while suffering from a mental illness (for example, clinical depression), are they to be held accountable? Should we condemn them (or at least their action) or pity them?

I think that once again here you are letting your prejudices about clinical depression (and possibly other mental illnesses) colour your thinking. You seem to think that people with clinical depression can simply 'snap out of it', perhaps by improving their relationships, and so suicide while suffering from it is not defensible, since they could easily have gotten out of it. Forgive me (and correct me) if I'm wrong, but this seems to be your take. And it's simply wrong.
The same excuse can them be used for those killing another person. The only difference is the hate & loathing is directed externally rather than internally, & the victim is a person other than the self. The process is the same. Now if you want to argue that murderers - eg. Monster (Charlize Theron) were not in their right mind to begin with well... I do sympathise with the state of mind of that murderer - but she was still a murderer.

BTW are you suggesting then that suicide is legal? Euthanasia is illegal where I'm at.
 
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The Bellman

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Kris_J said:
The same excuse can them be used for those killing another person. The only difference is the hate & loathing is directed externally rather than internally, & the victim is a person other than the self. The process is the same. Now if you want to argue that murderers - eg. Monster (Charlize Theron) were not in their right mind to begin with well... I do sympathise with the state of mind of that murderer - but she was still a murderer.
The same "excuse" IS used by those killing another person. People who kill another person when mentally ill are not given the same punishment as those who do so while mentally healthy. That's why the defense of not guilty by reason of mental illness exists.
 
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Kris_J

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The Bellman said:
The same "excuse" IS used by those killing another person. People who kill another person when mentally ill are not given the same punishment as those who do so while mentally healthy. That's why the defense of not guilty by reason of mental illness exists.
Even manslaughter by chemical imbalance (eg alcohol/drug taking) is a criminal offense - & there was no intent of harm involved, & they were not in their "right mind" at the time. So does that mean that drunk drivers are less innocent since they were chemically imbalanced & no intention of death?
 
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The Bellman

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Kris_J said:
Even manslaughter by chemical imbalance (eg alcohol/drug taking) is a criminal offense - & there was no intent of harm involved, & they were not in their "right mind" at the time. So does that mean that drunk drivers are less innocent since they were chemically imbalanced & no intention of death?
So what? They weren't in their right mind via their own actions. They chose to be 'out of their right mind', when the consequences of so being could have been foreseen. The same is not true of those who are mentally ill. A person who is found to be mentally ill is not found "guilty of a lesser offence" - he's found NOT guilty - by reason of mental illness.
 
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Kris_J

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If you have suicidal tendencies - read on at your own risk - IF YOU READ ON THIS IS THE CHOICE YOU MAKE.


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The Bellman said:
So what? They weren't in their right mind via their own actions. They chose to be 'out of their right mind', when the consequences of so being could have been foreseen. The same is not true of those who are mentally ill. A person who is found to be mentally ill is not found "guilty of a lesser offence" - he's found NOT guilty - by reason of mental illness.
Then everyone shouldn't watch violent movies on the TV because it give people ideas on ways to kill themselves. Perhaps people shouldn't go online to places like this because they may hear someone say something hurtful to them that will cause them to commit suicide. If anyone believes they have suicidal tendencies really should place themselves in a padded cell 24/7 because anything can set them off, like my unsympathetic comments.

So do you have suicidal tendencies yet you chose to read on?
 
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The Bellman

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Kris_J said:
Then everyone shouldn't watch violent movies on the TV because it give people ideas on ways to kill themselves. Perhaps people shouldn't go online to places like this because they may hear someone say something hurtful to them that will cause them to commit suicide. If anyone believes they have suicidal tendencies really should place themselves in a padded cell 24/7 because anything can set them off, like my unsympathetic comments.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here - I don't understand what any of this has to do with the issue. The issue is that some people who are mentally ill kill themselves (which I would think is indisputable). What does the above have to do with it?
 
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Kris_J

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If you have suicidal tendencies - read on at your own risk - IF YOU READ ON THIS IS THE CHOICE YOU MAKE.
Bellman didn't you read the warning? I thought you had suicidal tendencies in the past.

I could be saying something to trigger suicidal tendencies, another straw on the back of the chemically imbalanced camel - & yet you chose to read on???? :eek:

That is a rational choice you made & are as guilty as the person who chooses to drive to the tavern to get drunk, & accidently kills someone driving home in their drunkeness. :eek:
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I hope I won't get a response from you that confirms you reading this!

If you read on, then it confirms that suicide is a rational choice. If you are Christian or just honest, kindly let us know you ignored the warning if it applied to you. It is your choice to confess how dishonest you are to yourself.
 
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Buzz Dixon

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Kris_J said:
If you have suicidal tendencies - read on at your own risk - IF YOU READ ON THIS IS THE CHOICE YOU MAKE.


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Then everyone shouldn't watch violent movies on the TV because it give people ideas on ways to kill themselves. Perhaps people shouldn't go online to places like this because they may hear someone say something hurtful to them that will cause them to commit suicide. If anyone believes they have suicidal tendencies really should place themselves in a padded cell 24/7 because anything can set them off, like my unsympathetic comments.

So do you have suicidal tendencies yet you chose to read on?
Compadre, if there was ever a TV show that was capable of prompting suicide, it was THE LITTLE CLOWNS OF HAPPY TOWN.

I oughta know, I wrote for 'em... :cry:
 
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Kris_J

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Buzz Dixon said:
Compadre, if there was ever a TV show that was capable of prompting suicide, it was THE LITTLE CLOWNS OF HAPPY TOWN.

I oughta know, I wrote for 'em... :cry:
Sounds like the telletubbies effect on me! I really think those guys are real aliens disguised as 'pseudo aliens' ... aren't they supposed to aliens? ... kindly point me to the nearest padded cell.:eek:
 
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The Bellman

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Kris_J said:
If you have suicidal tendencies - read on at your own risk - IF YOU READ ON THIS IS THE CHOICE YOU MAKE.
Bellman didn't you read the warning? I thought you had suicidal tendencies in the past.

I could be saying something to trigger suicidal tendencies, another straw on the back of the chemically imbalanced camel - & yet you chose to read on???? :eek:

That is a rational choice you made & are as guilty as the person who chooses to drive to the tavern to get drunk, & accidently kills someone driving home in their drunkeness. :eek:
----

I hope I won't get a response from you that confirms you reading this!

If you read on, then it confirms that suicide is a rational choice. If you are Christian or just honest, kindly let us know you ignored the warning if it applied to you. It is your choice to confess how dishonest you are to yourself.
What the hell are you talking about? You are making no sense at all. I have no idea what the above post is supposed to mean or accomplish.
 
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Kris_J

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If you have suicidal tendencies - read on at your own risk - IF YOU READ ON THIS IS THE CHOICE YOU MAKE.

What you read my post??? Knowingly taking the chance that I might say something like "you deserve to be dead! Kill yourself!". you just proved that suicides choose to kill themselves as much as the drunk driver chooses to kill the pedestrian after driving home from the pub.
 
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The Bellman

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Kris_J said:
If you have suicidal tendencies - read on at your own risk - IF YOU READ ON THIS IS THE CHOICE YOU MAKE.

What you read my post??? Knowingly taking the chance that I might say something like "you deserve to be dead! Kill yourself!". you just proved that suicides choose to kill themselves as much as the drunk driver chooses to kill the pedestrian after driving home from the pub.
No, I didn't. Some suicides no doubt do choose to kill themselves. Some people are, however, mentally ill to the point where they are not responsible for what they do. This is supported by our legal system, which recognises that mentally ill people aren't responsible for crimes they commit when they are 'not in their right mind'. Obviously, suicides can be in this state as well.

The point at issue is persons who are clinically depressed, to the point where they suicide. They are not capable of rational thought; their decision to suicide is not a reasoned one, because they are incapable of making reasoned decisions.
 
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Kris_J

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If you have suicidal tendencies - read on at your own risk - IF YOU READ ON THIS IS THE CHOICE YOU MAKE.

All people, suicidal or not, choose whether or not they should read on after the above statement. The choice to read on is the same choice if they decide to off themselves. Why else take the chance on their/your life of reading on??? I mean, how many "signs" like above have you read? eg. loneliness, dependancy, drinking at home alone, drinking alone and going on internet chatrooms? not having friends in school? not having friends at all? knowing that you may never have a wife (to grow old with)/children but not (re)marrying/adopting? hating your job but are doing nothing to change your situation, or hating that you don't have a job & all the stigma attached to it. Knowing that internet company is not real company but still remain online rather than say - living in Asia & have a wife & family there, complete with neices & nephews, & a great value for your dollar & a comfortable albeit exotically humid life.
 
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The Bellman

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Kris_J said:
All people, suicidal or not, choose whether or not they should read on after the above statement. The choice to read on is the same choice if they decide to off themselves. Why else take the chance on their/your life of reading on??? I mean, how many "signs" like above have you read? eg. loneliness, dependancy, drinking at home alone, drinking alone and going on internet chatrooms? not having friends in school? not having friends at all? knowing that you may never have a wife/children but not marrying/adopting? hating your job but are doing nothing to change your situation, or hating that you don't have a job & all the stigma attached to it. Knowing that internet company is not real company but still remain online rather than say - living in Asia & have a wife & family there, complete with neices & nephews, & a great value for your dollar & a comfortable albeit humid life.[/color][/size][/color][/size][/font]
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or how it relates to this thread as a whole or the discussion regarding suicide and clinical depressives we have been having. I particularly can't see where it has anything to do with clinical depression or the idea of the mentally ill suiciding.
 
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The Bellman

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Kris_J said:
Try harder.... But then maybe you're just mroe than happy for people merely popping pills rather than investigating what is the underlying causes of what made people have a chemical imbalance. Your choice.
Have you not even read this thread? Nobody's talking about "merely" popping pills. We are talking about treating a medical condition in the way that has repeatedly proven the most successful. Sorry that that way doesn't fit with your agenda against medication. Yes, I know that you're determined that "pill-popping" is wrong and bad and all things horrible, and that the answer to clinical depression is "better relationships" - but decades of research, the opinions of the medical community and sufferers demonstrate that you're wrong. But, of course, you'll continue to just ignore them to maintain your little agenda.
 
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