1st world suicides

[The Bellman]

Oops.

 

[Kris_J]

Of course, there IS some reason behind why this chemical imbalance manifests itself. We don't know what it is. But, as explained above, we know that it doesn't appear to have anything to do with any social circumstance.

So we "don't know" what causes people to commit suicide? That is like saying that we don't know what causes people to commit homicide.

I think you are promoting mysticism over reasoning about what leads to suicide.

 

[The Bellman]

So we "don't know" what causes people to commit suicide? That is like saying that we don't know what causes people to commit homicide.

I think you are promoting mysticism over reasoning about what leads to suicide.

We don't know what causes clinical depression. We know its proximate cause (chemical imbalance); we don't know its ultimate cause (what causes the chemical imbalance).

And, as pointed out to you before, suicide and clinical depression are not synonymous. People suicide for a variety of reasons, of which clinical depression is one. People who suffer from clinical depression eventually experience a number of different outcomes of their condition, of which suicide is one.

It is not promoting mysticism to admit we don't know. It's certainly far superior to pointing to something as the cause without any support except that it sounds good, or fits someone's personal prejudices.

 

[psychedelicist]

I wonder if the chemical depression might be because of their mental state. Certainly, if one is under a lot of stress, its mind will pay a lot of attention to it. Perhaps so much that it actually forgets to produce those chemicals, causing a chemical imbalance.

This would make the sense best from a determinist position. If I understand it correctly, determinism says that things like "conciousness" are just reactions to your incoming sense data, or your environment. Like a computer sort of. Stress and depression would be conflicting sense data which your brain must sort out (you think you should spend more time with you family but you know that you need to work more, and stuff like that). Therefore it is just as much of a program as making these chemicals unconciously. If the brain pays too much attention to one it could well forget to pay any attention to the other.

 

[Kris_J]

Many people become ill for absolutely no reason (for which read 'for no reason of which we know'). We still don't know what causes cancer; we don't know what brings on the onset of diabetes. Does this mean they actually have no cause? No - it means we don't know what that cause is. Someday, we may know, just as we may know what brings on a serotonin shortage. At the moment, however, all we can go on is what little we do know about what causes them. And one of those things is that a serotonin shortage has no circumstantial cause whatsoever (that we have found).

Thats like saying that heart attacks occur at random - & are not stress/lifestyle induced induced.

I think it suits some people to pretend it is not a relational problem - like those who support the medication of "ADHD" children - rather than having the parents actually take parenting classes, get the parents to shape up & take the time to learn how other families deal with children. But then its always easier for those parents to just go get drugs & drug up their children - pop-a-pill for a quick-fix. Easy - back to the B&B soapie or the pub, or to work some more....Or just get themselves some pills too for a quick-fix-pill for "I-feel-ok-I-have-ADHD-kids".

 

[The Bellman]

Thats like saying that heart attacks occur at random - & are not stress/lifestyle induced induced.

No, it's not. We know what things lead to heart attacks. There are, however, a number of medical conditions for which we DON'T know the cause. Admitting this doesn't change the fact that for some conditions, we do know the cause.

I think it suits some people to pretend it is not a relational problem - like those who support the medication of "ADHD" children - rather than having the parents actually take parenting classes, get the parents to shape up & take the time to learn how other families deal with children. But then its always easier for those parents to just go get drugs & drug up their children - pop-a-pill for a quick-fix. Easy - back to the B&B

soapie or the pub, or to work some more....Or just get themselves some pills too for a quick-fix-pill for "I-feel-ok-I-have-ADHD-kids".

It doesn't "suit" anyone. It appears that you have an agenda here - you want it to be a relational problem, so that the "pop-a-pill" culture you are so against won't get a look in. I can understand your antipathy to that culture, but the fact remains that there are some medical conditions that respond to medication, and (as far as we know) nothing else. Clinical depression is one of these. Psychiatrists and psychologists have had decades of trying all sorts of therapies, relational counselling and so forth to cure clinical depression - and have discovered it simply doesn't work. Along came modern SSRI anti-depressants...and people who'd been suffering for years found their symptoms alleviated - in a way that they never had before, despite (often) years or decades of counselling about their lifestyle, their relationships, everything.

In your anxiousness to avoid the 'pop-a-pill' culture, I think you're too eager to dismiss the fact that some medical conditions require medication. Clinical depression is one of these conditions. Certainly, there is NO indication that it has anything to do with relationships, and a good deal of evidence to indicate that it doesn't.

 

[Kris_J]

No, it's not. We know what things lead to heart attacks. There are, however, a number of medical conditions for which we DON'T know the cause. Admitting this doesn't change the fact that for some conditions, we do know the cause.

It doesn't "suit" anyone. It appears that you have an agenda here - you want it to be a relational problem, so that the "pop-a-pill" culture you are so against won't get a look in. I can understand your antipathy to that culture, but the fact remains that there are some medical conditions that respond to medication, and (as far as we know) nothing else. Clinical depression is one of these. Psychiatrists and psychologists have had decades of trying all sorts of therapies, relational counselling and so forth to cure clinical depression - and have discovered it simply doesn't work. Along came modern SSRI anti-depressants...and people who'd been suffering for years found their symptoms alleviated - in a way that they never had before, despite (often) years or decades of counselling about their lifestyle, their relationships, everything.

In your anxiousness to avoid the 'pop-a-pill' culture, I think you're too eager to dismiss the fact that some medical conditions require medication. Clinical depression is one of these conditions. Certainly, there is NO indication that it has anything to do with relationships, and a good deal of evidence to indicate that it doesn't.

Sure - so what does that mean if you had kids that are "out of control" - do you take them to the doctor who will be more than happy to label them as "ADHD" kids along with a rainbow coloured medication pills to take home for them? If a pill-popping solution is good enough for you then its good enough for your kids.

 

[The Bellman]

Sure - so what does that mean if you had kids that are "out of control" - do you take them to the doctor who will be more than happy to label them as "ADHD" kids along with a rainbow coloured medication pills to take home for them? If a pill-popping solution is good enough for you then its good enough for your kids.

That's ridiculous. Your agenda is blinding you. Clinical depression requires medication to treat. I don't know anything about ADHD, since I've not got children and don't know any who suffer from it. But saying "I took medication for my illness, so I'll give my kids medication for theirs" is simply ludicrous. Would a parent say "I had surgery for my illness...so I'll get surgery for my kid's illness," regardless of what that illness was? Of course not. Similarly, medical conditions should be treated on what they are, not on what treatment some other medical condition required.

But again, your agenda here seems to be leading you down the wrong path. Clinical depression requires medication - your problem with that seems to be that it might lead to people taking pills for other conditions, or might contribute to a pill-popping culture.. That might well be a valid fear, but it doesn't change the facts about clinical depression.

 

[Kris_J]

That's ridiculous. Your agenda is blinding you. Clinical depression requires medication to treat. I don't know anything about ADHD, since I've not got children and don't know any who suffer from it. But saying "I took medication for my illness, so I'll give my kids medication for theirs" is simply ludicrous. Would a parent say "I had surgery for my illness...so I'll get surgery for my kid's illness," regardless of what that illness was? Of course not. Similarly, medical conditions should be treated on what they are, not on what treatment some other medical condition required.

But again, your agenda here seems to be leading you down the wrong path. Clinical depression requires medication - your problem with that seems to be that it might lead to people taking pills for other conditions, or might contribute to a pill-popping culture.. That might well be a valid fear, but it doesn't change the facts about clinical depression.

You have your own "agenda" here & that is to promote the idea that clinical depression is PRIMARILY CAUSED by a "chemical imbalance".

I bring up the issue of children because it is necessary to address what is THE BEST approach to understanding clinical depression. If in your opinion a solve-all pill is the best solution to "chemical imbalance" such as clinical depression & ADHD - then you must conclude that doctors' prescription of medication for ADHD treatment is the best solution for kids deemed "out of control".

 

[The Bellman]

You have your own "agenda" here & that is to promote the idea that clinical depression is PRIMARILY CAUSED by a "chemical imbalance".

No, mate, I don't. Clinical depression is primarily caused by a chemical imbalance. That's fact, supported by decades of research and trials. Supported by every person who has spoken about the subject on either of the threads - except you. Supported by people who have suffered from the condition, sometimes for decades.

I bring up the issue of children because it is necessary to address what is THE BEST approach to understanding clinical depression. If in your opinion a solve-all pill is the best solution to "chemical imbalance" such as clinical depression & ADHD - then you must conclude that doctors' prescription of medication for ADHD treatment is the best solution for kids deemed "out of control".

I am talking about clinical depression, not ADHD. I know very, very little about that subject. However, it is completely unrelated to our discussion about clinical depression, just as tuberculosis and how to treat it would be unrelated to a discussion on cancer and how to treat it. My opinion - and that of the vast majority of the psychiatric profession, and every sufferer I have ever encountered - is that medication is the solution to clinical depression. This says nothing whatsoever about the solution to ADHD.

 

[GMRELIC]

This is a topic that really hits home with me, my ex wife, the mother of my children took her own life in 1994 at the age of 23 years old after a 6 year battle with depression, I do not condone suicide, but I do somewhat understand it. her pain of living finally surpassed her fear of dying, depression is a disease like cancer, cancer takes peoples lives, and so does depression. She had under gone treatment for her depression for several years but after the birth of our second child, she just seemed untreatable, and nothing seemed to work, her depression in my words became terminal.
even though I do not agree with suicide, I think our loving God understands the termoil
these people live in, and with his grace he opens his gates of heaven to welcome those that have fought the disease so hard, but lost the battle, I just had a gut feeling that suicide would be the result of my ex wives illness, before she died, she never attempted suicide before, she was successful on her first attempt. Her mental health workers assured me for several years she was not suicidal, just bi-polar, and I should not worry about that. but now looking back on it the signs were there. I have always heard the suicide is a permenant solution to a temporary problem, but I disagree with that in some ways, suicide is the only way they see to rid thier life of such horrid pain and despair. only God knows the tormoil they are going through, only God feels thier pain, and I don't think God condems those who die from depression anymore than he will condemn those who die from cancer or heart disease. Just my opinion,

 

[mpshiel]

This debate, if I can call it such reminds me of the sort of discussions 10 years ago about which girls DESERVE to be raped.

Sure there are guys who just come and rape someone they don't know or who isn't "asking" for it, but unless the women who are raped are willing to look at thier lives, thier habits, and the clothes they wear, then perhaps they will just continue to be raped and influence another generation of women who will be "asking" for rape.

I hope that statement disgusted you. Arguements about how people with clinical mental illnesses need to pull themselves up by thier bootstraps digust me (as like arguements on rape, they are never argued in such a way by participants, but bystanders). I have a mental condition called bipolar II - which has depression as a component. Yes, medical studies have shown that stress, both external and internal can increase the swing and intensity of the illness. That is why doctors recommend people with depression try to eliminate excess stress, regularly exercise, have a regular diet and sleep habit. However, that does not "cure" me - nor do I have god-like control over every person and event so that it cannot stress me. If I get up in the morning, my car catches on fire, my partner is taken to the hospital and my boss calls up to tell me the company is collapsing and I have been laid off - Am I somehow a bad person if I find that stressful?

Watching a child being beaten to me is a very stressful event - for others it is not - does that make me wrong because I haven't conditioned myself to block out the pain of others and thus can negatively effect my own mental health?

Mental health is not about quick and easy solution (except for those whom durgs work wonders) but usually about over a long period of time finding balance in your life so that the illness does not dictate your life, and that you live the fullest life around it.

I don't believe in hell but I do think that it won't be suicides who would go there to crawl forever in darkness across a painful landscape but rather those who are so without emphathy that they say things like, "Depressed people should just kill themselves and get it over with.", or "All they want is attension, me me me!" or "They just have to suck it up like the rest of us."

 

[jesusfreak3786]

suicied is a sin.

 

[flicka]

suicied is a sin.

wow

 

[Kris_J]

I also believe suicide is a sin. Not only do you murder yourself, you also inflict irreparable harm to others. You also set the precedent that life-taking is an option when life becomes too hard.

 

[psychedelicist]

I also believe suicide is a sin. Not only do you murder yourself, you also inflict irreparable harm to others. You also set the precedent that life-taking is an option when life becomes too hard.

It is true that you might inflict emotional harm to others, but you must accept this as a part of life. If it was physical harm then I would agree with you. But all suicide physically harms is oneself. And of course life taking is always an option. It is your life and you can do with it what you please. I think it is the highest level of escapism but it should not be considered wrong.

 

[Kris_J]

It is true that you might inflict emotional harm to others, but you must accept this as a part of life. If it was physical harm then I would agree with you. But all suicide physically harms is oneself. And of course life taking is always an option. It is your life and you can do with it what you please. I think it is the highest level of escapism but it should not be considered wrong.

So what does that mean for thou shall not murder? You're not Christian.

Suicide is murder.

 

[jeffnevins]

Anyone know of Christians who've taken their own lives? Statistics?

I almost killed myself once, and I've been a Christian my whole life.

A lack of an intimate relationship and a meaningful way to spend one's life make living hard, even with a close relationship with God.

Anyone ever feel they're being tested so long and intensely that they can't make it? I've read Job, etc...

 

[GMRELIC]

Anyone know of Christians who've taken their own lives? Statistics?

I almost killed myself once, and I've been a Christian my whole life.

A lack of an intimate relationship and a meaningful way to spend one's life make living hard, even with a close relationship with God.

Anyone ever feel they're being tested so long and intensely that they can't make it? I've read Job, etc...

My ex-wife was a Christian when she completed suicide, she was lost in mental illness. unable to overcome the disease that made her life a living hell.
It is not up to me to judge her for ending her life, only God knows the torment she was going thru. was it a sin, I don't really know, only Gods knows

 

[Tomk80]

So what does that mean for thou shall not murder? You're not Christian.

Suicide is murder.

WOWWOWWOW. Nobody here is condoning suicide. Nobody here is saying that we shouldn't do everything to prevent people from taking their lives.

However, one should be mindfull of and show understanding for the turmoil people go through before they willingly take their own lives. For me, sin means willfully doing something that is wrong. Murder belongs in that category. Does suicide belong in that category. I'm not sure.

Also, when treating conditions leading up to suicide we should be aware that there might be different reasons why someone wants to commit suicide. In the case of clinical depression, this reason might well be biological in stead of social, and thus could be treated with medication. However, with other forms of depression as well as with other reasons why people might want to commit suicide, the reasons might very well be social and in those cases drugs won't solve the issue.

So, to treat a case were the patient might become suicidal, a psychologist or psychiatrist will have to look at the underlying causes of the disease and use drugs, therapy or both to address the problem.