1st world suicides

[Kris_J]

Have you not even read this thread? Nobody's talking about "merely" popping pills. We are talking about treating a medical condition in the way that has repeatedly proven the most successful. Sorry that that way doesn't fit with your agenda against medication. Yes, I know that you're determined that "pill-popping" is wrong and bad and all things horrible, and that the answer to clinical depression is "better relationships" - but decades of research, the opinions of the medical community and sufferers demonstrate that you're wrong. But, of course, you'll continue to just ignore them to maintain your little agenda.

I'm afraid you're the one with the agenda of denying that the chemical imbalance is caused by other factors such as personal issues in life.

"The risk of clinical depression is often higher in individuals with serious medical illnesses, such as heart disease, stroke, cancer and diabetes." http://www.nmha.org/ccd/support/cooccurfacts.cfm

None of the illnesses noted emerge without a reason. Smoking, drinking, eating habits etc. Regardless of whether these diseases are preventable or not, it shows that lifestyle is a major factor on whether someone is at risk of mental illness.

What you are incapable of accepting is that there is a reason WHY someone has a chemical imbalance. You might as well deny that like there is a reason why someone has lung cancer.

Your position might as well say that people have mental illness because "God works in mysterious ways" - maybe you should convert?

 

[Kris_J]

Key Understanding

"Most depression is not due to a chemical imbalance, or genetic factors. Low serotonin levels are a result, not a cause, of depression.

Despite the prevailing ideas for the last few decades, this is now known to be a fact. (1)

This misunderstanding is also the reason why drugs for depression miss the point, and treat the symptoms instead of the causes."


http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Depression_Information/signs.htm




---

Bellman, did it ever occur to you that society is pushing the "pop-the-pill" solution rather than addressing what causes the chemical imbalance? Such as perhaps because it is CHEAPER to mask the depression with drugs rather than treat its cause? Cheaper for the government, the health system, the tax payer etc. etc. & good for business & good for the economy?

 

[Kris_J]

"Surprisingly, stress has been shown to play a major role in the patient's first two episodes of major depression, but not in later episodes. Genetics and temperament appear to play the most important role for later episodes of a patient's depression.

[size=-1]It appears that major depression often requires stress to "get the ball rolling", but after a few episodes, the illness develops its own momentum and no longer needs stress to "keep rolling". This is a familiar pattern seen in many medical illnesses. Thus, the treatment of major depression must address the major contribution that stress, genetics and temperament play in this disorder. Unfortunately, most current therapies lack this well-rounded approach.[/size] "

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/major_depression.asp

 

[The Bellman]

I'm afraid you're the one with the agenda of denying that the chemical imbalance is caused by other factors such as personal issues in life.

"The risk of clinical depression is often higher in individuals with serious medical illnesses, such as heart disease, stroke, cancer and diabetes." http://www.nmha.org/ccd/support/cooccurfacts.cfm

None of the illnesses noted emerge without a reason. Smoking, drinking, eating habits etc. Regardless of whether these diseases are preventable or not, it shows that lifestyle is a major factor on whether someone is at risk of mental illness.

What you are incapable of accepting is that there is a reason WHY someone has a chemical imbalance. You might as well deny that like there is a reason why someone has lung cancer.

Your position might as well say that people have mental illness because "God works in mysterious ways" - maybe you should convert?

Key Understanding

"Most depression is not due to a chemical imbalance, or genetic factors. Low serotonin levels are a result, not a cause, of depression.

Despite the prevailing ideas for the last few decades, this is now known to be a fact. (1)

This misunderstanding is also the reason why drugs for depression miss the point, and treat the symptoms instead of the causes."

http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Depression_Information/signs.htm

Bellman, did it ever occur to you that society is pushing the "pop-the-pill" solution rather than addressing what causes the chemical imbalance? Such as perhaps because it is CHEAPER to mask the depression with drugs rather than treat its cause? Cheaper for the government, the health system, the tax payer etc. etc. & good for business & good for the economy?

"Surprisingly, stress has been shown to play a major role in the patient's first two episodes of major depression, but not in later episodes. Genetics and temperament appear to play the most important role for later episodes of a patient's depression.

[size=-1]It appears that major depression often requires stress to "get the ball rolling", but after a few episodes, the illness develops its own momentum and no longer needs stress to "keep rolling". This is a familiar pattern seen in many medical illnesses. Thus, the treatment of major depression must address the major contribution that stress, genetics and temperament play in this disorder. Unfortunately, most current therapies lack this well-rounded approach.[/size] "

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/major_depression.asp

I can only assume that no, you haven't actually read this thread. I have never denied that there must be a cause for the chemical imbalance that causes clinical depression, but rather stated that there must be such a cause. However, we don't know what it is. What we do know is that it is not, as far as we can tell, in any way environmental. Despite what your citations above say, it is not related to social circumstances. It happens to people in ALL social circumstances, from the stressed to the tranquil, from the isolated to the densely social, from the lonely to the popular. Decades of attempts to cure it via all sorts of therapies aimed at reducing stress, enriching relationships and so forth have repeatedly failed. Yet medication does work in a way that therapies and behavioural modification does not. As I say, I'm sorry that you don't like this. Your disdain for "pill-popping" appears to have blinded you to the fact that there are some conditions for which medication is the best - and, at this stage, only - treatment that works.

 

[Kris_J]

Bellman, please read this again:

"Surprisingly, stress has been shown to play a major role in the patient's first two episodes of major depression, but not in later episodes. Genetics and temperament appear to play the most important role for later episodes of a patient's depression.

[size=-1]It appears that major depression often requires stress to "get the ball rolling", but after a few episodes, the illness develops its own momentum and no longer needs stress to "keep rolling". This is a familiar pattern seen in many medical illnesses. Thus, the treatment of major depression must address the major contribution that stress, genetics and temperament play in this disorder. Unfortunately, most current therapies lack this well-rounded approach.[/size] "

As much a you like to deny it - stress is key to depression. To avoid prolonged exposure to stressful situations, stressful situations must first be defined specific to the individual. Stress is ALWAYS caused by external factors. Find out what stresses you out & either learn to not be stressed, or get out of the situation.

People chasing/maintaining things like social status, social approval, emotional/financial security etc, & finding their goals unsustainable will never be able to relieve the stress, either have to lower their goals or remove those goals altogether. How can you possibly deny that this is not a constant & often unresolvable source of stress for many western people?

 

[The Bellman]

Bellman, please read this again:


As much a you like to deny it - stress is key to depression. To avoid prolonged exposure to stressful situations, stressful situations must first be defined specific to the individual. Stress is ALWAYS caused by external factors. Find out what stresses you out & either learn to not be stressed, or get out of the situation.

People chasing/maintaining things like social status, social approval, emotional/financial security etc, & finding their goals unsustainable will never be able to relieve the stress, either have to lower their goals or remove those goals altogether. How can you possibly deny that this is not a constant & often unresolvable source of stress for many western people?

Perhaps you should read it again...

"major depression often requires stress to "get the ball rolling", but after a few episodes, the illness develops its own momentum and no longer needs stress"

"often"...as in "not always." Once again, repeated efforts for decades to alleviate depression by alleviating stress simply don't work. Medication does. But hey, don't listen to the people who've been there...what do they know?

It also seems you're not above a bit of selective quoting. From the same article as the above:

"The dramatic success of antidepressant drug therapy for severe major depression has made many scientists question if depression has a strong biological, rather than psychological, basis. Thus many are questioning whether genetics or stress plays the major role in causing major depression. Recent research has shown that both play a major role in major depression."

 

[Kris_J]

"often"...as in "not always." Once again, repeated efforts for decades to alleviate depression by alleviating stress simply don't work. Medication does. But hey, don't listen to the people who've been there...what do they know?

You can clutch at straws then - & claim you were one of the few who was truly chemically imbalanced, & that most of everyone else who has clinical depression is fraudulently believing they were primarily chemically imbalanced.

"major depression often requires stress to "get the ball rolling", but after a few episodes, the illness develops its own momentum and no longer needs stress"
Most people can count to

My goodness your english must be different from mine, because that quote shows that clinical depression is often caused by stress. But then people in denial like to think they are so special they belong to the few blameless crowd.

I suspect then that there must be very many clinically depressed people who has never ever experienced stress. ...Or they are mostly in denial of the fact that their stressful lifestyle has contributed to clinical depression.

It also seems you're not above a bit of selective quoting. From the same article as the above:

"The dramatic success of antidepressant drug therapy for severe major depression has made many scientists question if depression has a strong biological, rather than psychological, basis. Thus many are questioning whether genetics or stress plays the major role in causing major depression. Recent research has shown that both play a major role in major depression."

That is the questioning that you have already endorsed as FACT. People are desperate enough to believe that life experiences has never contributed to their depression. Oh well, more consumers.

According to that quote, it is in fact the belief that "clinical depression is primarily caused by a chemical imbalance" that is unproven.

---
Bellman how can you in clear conscience continue deny that the majority of cases of clinical depression is primarily caused by stress?

BTW, having a majorly compromised conscience (guilt) is stressful & can lead to depression.

 

[The Bellman]

Bellman how can you in clear conscience continue deny that the majority of cases of clinical depression is primarily caused by stress?

Because it is false, and you have not given any evidence (sorry, but one website which doesn't even give sources doesn't count as evidence) that it is. Decades of research have shown that it isn't.

But it's obvious you've made up your mind. Your anxiety over what you perceive as a "pill-popping" culture has blinded you to the fact that some medical conditions are best treated by medication. The fact that decades of attempts to treat depression without medication failed and the fact that medication WORKS - these facts are irrelevant to you.

I hope you never have anything to do with anyone who is clinically depressed - attitudes like yours have caused a great deal of harm and will continue to do so. Your "pull yourself out of it" attitude is precisely the kind of thing that can help push these ill people toward misery and suicide - whereas REAL treatment, ie. medication, can help them lead normal and happy lives. But, once again, what do the people who've been there and done that know? What do the doctors who've been treating the condition for decades know? Nothing, of course - you (with no experience at all) know better.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Kris_J]

Because it is false, and you have not given any evidence (sorry, but one website which doesn't even give sources doesn't count as evidence) that it is. Decades of research have shown that it isn't.

But it's obvious you've made up your mind. Your anxiety over what you perceive as a "pill-popping" culture has blinded you to the fact that some medical conditions are best treated by medication. The fact that decades of attempts to treat depression without medication failed and the fact that medication WORKS - these facts are irrelevant to you.

I hope you never have anything to do with anyone who is clinically depressed - attitudes like yours have caused a great deal of harm and will continue to do so. Your "pull yourself out of it" attitude is precisely the kind of thing that can help push these ill people toward misery and suicide - whereas REAL treatment, ie. medication, can help them lead normal and happy lives. But, once again, what do the people who've been there and done that know? What do the doctors who've been treating the condition for decades know? Nothing, of course - you (with no experience at all) know better.

Thanks for the discussion.

I wonder why you are so anxious to promote clinical depression as primarily caused by "chemical imbalance" rather than life issues & stress. But that is your business.

I am more concerned about prevention of the onset of clinical depression, hence will focus on its causes - which you are only too happy to leave as a mere "chemical imbalance". I would rather have seen an investigation of different possibilities of its causes & preventative measures that can be taken - eg. STRESS clearly being identified as the PRIMARY cause of clinical depression, rather than the insistance of the primary cause as being a "chemical imbalance" -which implies that it is unpreventable.

This position is taken with the view to the prevention of new cases of clinical depression, & consideration of the fact that people can take preventative measures to reduce risk - ie. avoid stress.

I wish you luck on your faith in medication. Perhaps you might come across a medication that prevents clinical depression so that people do not need to take medication for clinical depression. Please let us know if you come by this information, but I suspect I will again disagree with you on its merits.

Thank you also, Bellman for this discussion.

 

[The Bellman]

I wonder why you are so anxious to promote clinical depression as primarily caused by "chemical imbalance" rather than life issues & stress. But that is your business.

Because it's more accurate.

I am more concerned about prevention of the onset of clinical depression, hence will focus on its causes - which you are only too happy to leave as a mere "chemical imbalance". I would rather have seen an investigation of different possibilities of its causes & preventative measures that can be taken - eg. STRESS clearly being identified as the PRIMARY cause of clinical depression, rather than the insistance of the primary cause as being a "chemical imbalance" -which implies that it is unpreventable.

I have at no stage said I am "only too happy" to leave the cause of clinical depression as a chemical imbalance. I have repeatedly said that there must be a cause of this chemical imbalance, but that we do not know what it is. Discovering it would be wonderful, and if you are looking for it, I sincerely wish you all the best.

Stress has NOT been "clearly...identified as the primary cause of clinical depression." ONE website, which gave NO sources, said it was "often" the cause in some cases. That is a far cry from "clearly identified as the primary cause."

Admitting that clinical depression is caused by a chemical imbalance says or implies nothing about its being unpreventable.

This position is taken with the view to the prevention of new cases of clinical depression, & consideration of the fact that people can take preventative measures to reduce risk - ie. avoid stress.

Avoiding stress is a great plan, for anyone. I think the idea that it will reduce the likelihood of undergoing clinical depression to be fanciful with no evidentiary support.

I wish you luck on your faith in medication. Perhaps you might come across a medication that prevents clinical depression so that people do not need to take medication for clinical depression. Please let us know if you come by this information, but I suspect I will again disagree with you on its merits.

I have no "faith" in medication (by 'faith', particulary on religious boards, I mean 'belief without supporting evidence'). I believe it to be effective based on evidence - ie., that it IS effective.

 

[Kris_J]

I wish you luck on your faith in medication. Perhaps you might come across a medication that prevents clinical depression so that people do not need to take medication for clinical depression. Please let us know if you come by this information, but I suspect I will again disagree with you on its merits.

I have no "faith" in medication (by 'faith', particulary on religious boards, I mean 'belief without supporting evidence'). I believe it to be effective based on evidence - ie., that it IS effective.

Bellman, did it ever occur to you that it is preventable?

I already mentioned to you that perhaps you can search for a preventative for clinical depression - if you were to find one, do you believe that it will be in:

a) medicinal form?

b) Surgical form?

c) Or other forms that is not made of any physical substance?
(eg. good emotional/spiritual/relational health, good eating habits, avoid stress)

d) other possible preventatives (please state = eg. hypnotism, space alien intervention, miracle/faith prevention/exorcism) - note "faith prevention" as opposed to "faith healing".

 

[The Bellman]

Bellman, did it ever occur to you that it is preventable?

I already mentioned to you that perhaps you can search for a preventative for clinical depression - if you were to find one, do you believe that it will be in:

a) medicinal form?

b) Surgical form?

c) Or other forms that is not made of any physical substance?
(eg. good emotional/spiritual/relational health, good eating habits, avoid stress)

d) other possible preventatives (please state = eg. hypnotism, space alien intervention, miracle/faith prevention/exorcism) - note "faith prevention" as opposed to "faith healing".

Of course it's occurred to me. But I have no idea what form that prevention might take.