1st world suicides

[Kris_J]

Not counting martyrs.

Originally Posted by: Kris_J Clinical depression is a psychological disorder, & therefore the person is not in the right frame of mind. (even then, I believe there are too many pill-poppers rather than building a strong network of friends & family).

not all who suffer from clinical depression are hospitalised, nay, even medically treated..and many who suffer depression have this illness outside of having a very supportive family structure. Are you infeiring that those with close family ties do not suffer depressive tendencies?

Everyone has depressive tendencies - but not all are suicidal. Close family ties is the strongest line of defence from clinical depression - & suicides are about unacceptable/nonexistent relationships with other people, rather than of material things (eg. material poverty).

So you mean that all who lost a loved one by suicide makes them an authority on suicide? That's like assuming that every Christian is an Authority on Chrisitanity. I think not.

Certainly not. But it makes them more of an authority than those who have not experienced this personally. We can all have an opinion, but it speaks with far more clarity and precision if one has personal experience of what one is discussing... Particularly when such a sensitive issue is being discussed. you have made serious inmplications that those who commit suicide have wallowed in nothing more than a hefty dose of self-pity..and i have asked you to substantiate this...it is for you to substantiate it, not for I to substantiate my claim that self pity is as far removed from suicide as one can posssibly imagine.

Then enlighten me of a documented suicide in a first world country that does not primarily involve martyrdom nor self pity?

You say you have experience with suicide - & according to you that makes you an authority of some sort. Correct me by posing your version of a suicide that is not motivated by self pity.

 

[The Bellman]

I'll make the same post here that I made in the other thread, before I realised that the discussion had moved:

Kris, I realise that you are discussing this issue with the best possible intentions, and are not attempting to malign or denigrate anyone. However, let me say that it is apparent from your posts that you know virtually nothing about clinical depression. That's no shame - comparatively few people do. But as someone who has suffered from it, and whose mother is currently very ill indeed with it, allow me to point out a few things.

Persons with severe clinical depression aren't full of self-pity. It is a recognised medical condition which, among other things, leads to a feeling of despair, of hopelessness so black that it is indescribable. People are literally incapable of getting out of bed for days or weeks on end. Even if they can make it out of bed, they are often incapable of leaving their house - their "safe" environment. Other, peripheral disorders such as OCD, anxiety disorders and agoraphobia often play a part. Somebody in this state is incapable of rational thought. Certainly, to healthy people, they have nothing to be depressed about. They might be healthy (apart from their depression), well-off financially, lots of friends and family - a great life. But they are incapable of seeing this. The illness prevents them from rationally assessing their situation and their life. They're not capable of thinking how well off they are compared to many people in the world. It's not a question of self-pity, it's a question of chemicals in their brain (or rather, the lack of them) preventing their brain from working properly. This prevents them from the sort of rational thought that most people accomplish every day when they have a setback, or something bad happens.

I remember when I first underwent treatment for clinical depression, a doctor told me then that clinical depression can be a fatal illness - it's just that something else goes on the death certificate (suicide, or heart problems, or whatever). But make no mistake, clinical depression is an illness that can kill as certainly as can cancer - and the sufferer deserves the same amount of sympathy that we give to that cancer sufferer.

 

[Evee]

I'll make the same post here that I made in the other thread, before I realised that the discussion had moved:

Kris, I realise that you are discussing this issue with the best possible intentions, and are not attempting to malign or denigrate anyone. However, let me say that it is apparent from your posts that you know virtually nothing about clinical depression. That's no shame - comparatively few people do. But as someone who has suffered from it, and whose mother is currently very ill indeed with it, allow me to point out a few things.

Persons with severe clinical depression aren't full of self-pity. It is a recognised medical condition which, among other things, leads to a feeling of despair, of hopelessness so black that it is indescribable. People are literally incapable of getting out of bed for days or weeks on end. Even if they can make it out of bed, they are often incapable of leaving their house - their "safe" environment. Other, peripheral disorders such as OCD, anxiety disorders and agoraphobia often play a part. Somebody in this state is incapable of rational thought. Certainly, to healthy people, they have nothing to be depressed about. They might be healthy (apart from their depression), well-off financially, lots of friends and family - a great life. But they are incapable of seeing this. The illness prevents them from rationally assessing their situation and their life. They're not capable of thinking how well off they are compared to many people in the world. It's not a question of self-pity, it's a question of chemicals in their brain (or rather, the lack of them) preventing their brain from working properly. This prevents them from the sort of rational thought that most people accomplish every day when they have a setback, or something bad happens.

I remember when I first underwent treatment for clinical depression, a doctor told me then that clinical depression can be a fatal illness - it's just that something else goes on the death certificate (suicide, or heart problems, or whatever). But make no mistake, clinical depression is an illness that can kill as certainly as can cancer - and the sufferer deserves the same amount of sympathy that we give to that cancer sufferer.

Bellman that is the best post I have read of yours and certainly the most compassionate.
I agree with every word of your post for a change.

 

[Kris_J]

I'll make the same post here that I made in the other thread, before I realised that the discussion had moved:

Kris, I realise that you are discussing this issue with the best possible intentions, and are not attempting to malign or denigrate anyone. However, let me say that it is apparent from your posts that you know virtually nothing about clinical depression. That's no shame - comparatively few people do. But as someone who has suffered from it, and whose mother is currently very ill indeed with it, allow me to point out a few things.

Bellman, thank you for understanding that I have no intention of demeaning anyone but am just expressing my view. I may come across as insensitive by posing this thread, & I apologise.

However, I do know something about clinical depression from previous & current relationships of friends & family. I however do not claim that it makes me an authority on it. Kindly do not judge me on what I know or do not know, just like if you are an atheist, you wouldn't want a Christian judging you of knowing nothing about God just by merely noting that you are an atheist.

Persons with severe clinical depression aren't full of self-pity. It is a recognised medical condition which, among other things, leads to a feeling of despair, of hopelessness so black that it is indescribable. People are literally incapable of getting out of bed for days or weeks on end. Even if they can make it out of bed, they are often incapable of leaving their house - their "safe" environment. Other, peripheral disorders such as OCD, anxiety disorders and agoraphobia often play a part. Somebody in this state is incapable of rational thought. Certainly, to healthy people, they have nothing to be depressed about. They might be healthy (apart from their depression), well-off financially, lots of friends and family - a great life. But they are incapable of seeing this. The illness prevents them from rationally assessing their situation and their life. They're not capable of thinking how well off they are compared to many people in the world. It's not a question of self-pity, it's a question of chemicals in their brain (or rather, the lack of them) preventing their brain from working properly. This prevents them from the sort of rational thought that most people accomplish every day when they have a setback, or something bad happens.

They have not been addressing their issues, & its due to relationship poverty. Their chemical imbalance is the byproduct of their unaddressed issues compounded & unresolved.

Of course, to address such issues people need someone they can trust - especially family & friends. First world countries have extremely high divorce rates & people have little time building longlasting relationships with such a high mobility - socially & geographically. People even attend churches to make friends & socialising - very odd from my point of view.

I remember when I first underwent treatment for clinical depression, a doctor told me then that clinical depression can be a fatal illness - it's just that something else goes on the death certificate (suicide, or heart problems, or whatever). But make no mistake, clinical depression is an illness that can kill as certainly as can cancer - and the sufferer deserves the same amount of sympathy that we give to that cancer sufferer.

Do you know leper colonies exist in the Philippines & Thailand? have you ever visited them?

They are dying with no support & yet have the will to live.

I once caught a jeep with a leper in Southern Philippines - she had lost her nose, but had a big grin on her face & chatting away happily to her friend.

 

[Zoot]

I wonder if there is some chemical source of clinical depression in developed countries. Maybe plastics or carbon monoxide or who knows? Tetanus shots. Who knows.

 

[Kris_J]

double post

 

[Kris_J]

IMO its the culture. More importance is given to friends & work than siblings, cousins, parents, uncles & aunties.
I'd suspect its also the high social demographic mobility of people too that limits longlasting intimacy. The "macho male" who doesn't confide their problems to family & friends etc.

Also we are usually taught to place too much importance in material wealth for our happiness, when its actually human relationships that make us happy.

 

[Zoot]

It feels too much like a physical sensation for me to easily attribute it to social factors. It could be, but it's counter-intuitive to me.

 

[The Bellman]

Bellman, thank you for understanding that I have no intention of demeaning anyone but am just expressing my view. I may come across as insensitive by posing this thread, & I apologise.

However, I do know something about clinical depression from previous & current relationships of friends & family. I however do not claim that it makes me an authority on it. Kindly do not judge me on what I know or do not know, just like if you are an atheist, you wouldn't want a Christian judging you of knowing nothing about God just by merely noting that you are an atheist.

I certainly did not mean to judge you, and I apologise if I did, or if my reply came across as if I did. I said that you know virtually nothing about clinical depression, and that may not be true - but even if it is, it's not so much a judgement of you as an appraisal of your knowledge in a given area. Treat it as if I'd said (for example) that you know virtually nothing about Parkinson's disease. I certainly did not mean it to insult or denigrate you.

They have not been addressing their issues, & its due to relationship poverty. Their chemical imbalance is the byproduct of their unaddressed issues compounded & unaddressed. Of course, to address such issues people need someone they can trust - especially family & friends.

Do you know leper colonies exist in the Philippines & Thailand? have you ever visited them?

They are dying with no support & yet have the will to live.

I once caught a jeep with a leper in Southern Philippines - she had lost her nose, but had a big grin on her face & chatting away happily to her friend.

I'm sorry, but again in this post you demonstrate that, despite your claims, you don't know anything about clinical depression. It has nothing to do with "relationship poverty". The world is full of people who suffer terribly from clinical depression while at the same time have very supportive networks of family and friends. People suffering from clinical depression aren't failing to address issues because of relationship poverty - they're failing to address issues because their brains cannot do so. It has nothing to do with what sort of support network they have. The fact that you can think that it does demonstrates that you have very little knowledge of what clinical depression is.

It's as if you were saying that cancer sufferers are in pain only because they are suffering "relationship poverty" - that if they had close trusted friends and family, it wouldn't hurt. In both cases, they symptoms of the illness are completely unrelated to what sort of support the sufferers get from friends and family.

Yes, I know leper colonies exist; no, I have never visited them. I, however, have no doubt that they are full of cheerful, heartwarming people who, despite awful physical trials manage to enjoy and celebrate their lives. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with those suffering clinical depression. They are incapable of saying "well, there are lots of people worse off than I, so I've got nothing to be down about." Their brains are not working properly; it's not a question of "attitude" or "support" - they are unable to function correctly in this way.

And, quite frankly, misconceptions like yours are actively harmful when it comes to dealing with people who actually suffer from clinical depression.

 

[AlecEiffel]

I wonder if there is some chemical source of clinical depression in developed countries. Maybe plastics or carbon monoxide or who knows? Tetanus shots. Who knows.

Search for MSG, I read that its been linked to depression. Its been linked to a lot of things, and its basically in all processed food and other things. I know for a fact when I eat most processed foods, my face gets really flushed. I really have to watch what I eat, im just glad I dont have anymore significant symptoms.Try msgmyth.com. sorry for derailing, just thought I'd add that in there.

 

[Zoot]

Do we have accurate suicide statistics in Third World countries? Do we have accurate diagnosis of clinical depression in Third World countries?

 

[StormeTorque]

Reps to you Bellman, as someone with OCD, depression, anxiety and a lot more besides, there does seem to be a lot of stigma attached to mental illness. I can remember in the past when I thought much differently than I do today, and now I wonder why I felt like that then and not now. I admit that my thoughts are not rational. But they're not my fault - I am trying to get over this through meds. If it was something that could be helped I'm sure more people with depression etc would be glad to get out of the situation that they're in.

 

[Kris_J]

I'm sorry, but again in this post you demonstrate that, despite your claims, you don't know anything about clinical depression. It has nothing to do with "relationship poverty". The world is full of people who suffer terribly from clinical depression while at the same time have very supportive networks of family and friends. People suffering from clinical depression aren't failing to address issues because of relationship poverty - they're failing to address issues because their brains cannot do so. It has nothing to do with what sort of support network they have. The fact that you can think that it does demonstrates that you have very little knowledge of what clinical depression is.

It's as if you were saying that cancer sufferers are in pain only because they are suffering "relationship poverty" - that if they had close trusted friends and family, it wouldn't hurt. In both cases, they symptoms of the illness are completely unrelated to what sort of support the sufferers get from friends and family.

& what causes cancer?

Bad food, bad chemicals, smoking, drinking, sunbaking?

Cancer, like clinical depression, is not the opposite of a miracle (ie. an unexplanable curse).

Yes, I know leper colonies exist; no, I have never visited them. I, however, have no doubt that they are full of cheerful, heartwarming people who, despite awful physical trials manage to enjoy and celebrate their lives. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with those suffering clinical depression. They are incapable of saying "well, there are lots of people worse off than I, so I've got nothing to be down about." Their brains are not working properly; it's not a question of "attitude" or "support" - they are unable to function correctly in this way.

Then explain to them why someone in the first world would want to kill themselves & do away with their "miserable" existence?

And, quite frankly, misconceptions like yours are actively harmful when it comes to dealing with people who actually suffer from clinical depression.

I'd say its harmful to teach people that depression is merely a chemical imbalance, & can be cured by merely popping pills.

If you are not happy with the way your life is, then change your life - don't trick your brain. As an atheist I know you appreciate the power of the mind, thats why you wouldn't undermine your mind thinks just by what some Bible-waving person says about God.

Why would you undermine what your mind is telling you about your existence by dosing it with drugs? If your existence is not to your liking, either change your liking, or change your life, & not take drugs to delude your brain into being "happier".

 

[Kris_J]

Do we have accurate suicide statistics in Third World countries? Do we have accurate diagnosis of clinical depression in Third World countries?

LOL, do we have an accurate diagnosis of Attention Deficit Disorders in developing nations?

Thats another thing with parents dosing themselves with solve-all pills. A pill popping culture - with pill-popping kids.

 

[The Bellman]

& what causes cancer?

Bad food, bad chemicals, smoking, drinking, sunbaking?

Cancer, like clinical depression, is not the opposite of a miracle (ie. an unexplanable curse).

How is that relevant?

Then explain to them why someone in the first world would want to kill themselves & do away with their "miserable" existence?

SOME people with clinical depression want to kill themselves because they view their life as being utterly hopeless. That is one of the effects of the illness. No amount of support will make that go away.

I'd say its harmful to teach people that depression is merely a chemical imbalance, & can be cured by merely popping pills.

Nobody is suggesting that depression is "merely a chemical imbalance and can be cured by merely popping pills." What people are saying is the fact that clinical depression (which is not merely depression) is caused by a chemical imbalance, and can be treated by medication. Other factors - including support from friends and family - can be very helpful. However, to insist that the person "pull up their socks" with the help of friends and family is nonsensical, and actively harmful...just like telling a cancer sufferer to "pull themself out of it". The cancer - like the clinical depression - doesn't go away without medical treatment.

If you are not happy with the way your life is, then change your life - don't trick your brain.

Great advice - for those whose brains are working properly. People with clinical depression don't have that. Their brains aren't working properly. It's not a matter of changing their life.

As an atheist I know you appreciate the power of the mind, thats why you wouldn't undermine your mind thinks just by what some Bible-waving person says about God.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion.

Why would you undermine what your mind is telling you about your existence by dosing it with drugs? If your existence is not to your liking, either change your liking, or change your life, & not take drugs to delude your brain into being "happier".

Once again, with clinical depression, the mind is not working properly. It is 'broken'. Nothing it says can be relied on. Proper medication can greatly assist in fixing it. As I said earlier, attitudes such as yours - invariably put forward by people who know very little about clinical depression - cause great harm.

 

[Kris_J]

http://www.juiceguy.com/ADD-Dr-Baughman-dispells-the-myth.shtml

Did you ever hear that phsycologists/phsychiatrists are the new priests of our era?

They have the power to say who is mentally balanced or imbalanced - just like the priests who had the power to say who was going to hell & who was going to heaven. & of course - what God wants.

 

[Kris_J]

How is that relevant?

These are real medical problems, with real medical measurements.

SOME people with clinical depression want to kill themselves because they view their life as being utterly hopeless. That is one of the effects of the illness. No amount of support will make that go away.

Hence self pity.

Nobody is suggesting that depression is "merely a chemical imbalance and can be cured by merely popping pills." What people are saying is the fact that clinical depression (which is not merely depression) is caused by a chemical imbalance, and can be treated by medication. Other factors - including support from friends and family - can be very helpful. However, to insist that the person "pull up their socks" with the help of friends and family is nonsensical, and actively harmful...just like telling a cancer sufferer to "pull themself out of it". The cancer - like the clinical depression - doesn't go away without medical treatment.

I disagree.
http://www.juiceguy.com/ADD-Dr-Baug...-the-myth.shtml

Great advice - for those whose brains are working properly. People with clinical depression don't have that. Their brains aren't working properly. It's not a matter of changing their life.

Nobody's brain works properly - as an atheist you know that people believe seemingly irrational things like the existence of God. That is actually delusional, "delusions of grandeur", as an atheist, for you to believe in faith healing, hell, 6 day creation, is a perception not based on reality. Do you then conclude that theists & Christians have a mental illness for irrationally believing in God?

I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion.

How convenient. See above.

Once again, with clinical depression, the mind is not working properly. It is 'broken'. Nothing it says can be relied on. Proper medication can greatly assist in fixing it. As I said earlier, attitudes such as yours - invariably put forward by people who know very little about clinical depression - cause great harm.

I am against myths & lies & am the atheist of the religion of the mental illness industry. I'm as likely to believe in the existence of a "chemical imbalance" as the primary cause of mental illness, as a devout atheist is of God. I will grant that it may be the by-product, but never the cause.

 

[The Bellman]

These are real medical problems, with real medical measurements.

Yes, they are. So what?

Hence self pity.

Again, calling what someone suffering from clinical depression goes through 'self-pity' is completely misleading. It's like saying someone with cancer has a 'bit of pain'.

I disagree.
http://www.juiceguy.com/ADD-Dr-Baug...-the-myth.shtml

Sorry, but the overwhelming evidence confirms that your Dr Baughman - and you - are wrong.

Nobody's brain works properly - as an atheist you know that people believe seemingly irrational things like the existence of God. That is actually delusional, "delusions of grandeur", as an atheist, for you to believe in faith healing, hell, 6 day creation, is a perception not based on reality. Do you then conclude that theists & Christians have a mental illness for irrationally believing in God?

There is a vast difference between people believing something without adequate foundation and clinical depression. Compare it to a car - you can have a car which is missing on one cylinder. It's not working properly - but it gets you from A to B. Then again you can have a car on which the steering is completely stuffed - pull the wheel to the left, the car turns to the right, or goes straight ahead, or something else. That one WON'T get you from A to B. Saying that both cars aren't working properly is accurate, but it hardly gives the whole situation. A person suffering from clinical depression's brain is working improperly to the point where they are incapable of integrating information about their own life situation. They cannot evaluate it or the necessary tasks they must accomplish to live it.

How convenient. See above.

It's not "convenient"; it's simply fact. I still don't.

I'm as likely to believe in the existence of a "chemical imbalance" as the primary cause of mental illness, as a devout atheist is of God. I will grant that it may be the by-product, but never the cause.

The comparison of belief in god is completely meaningless. The fact that, for some reason, you don't want to believe what medical science has revealed is your problem. Do you have any medical training? What are your medical qualifications? The simple fact is that a chemical imbalance is the major cause of clinical depression, whether you like it or not.

 

[Kris_J]

Yes, they are. So what?

So what? If you don't care for the idea that there might not be such a thing as clinical depression primarily caused by a chemical imbalance, then perhaps its time to care about other alternatives?

Of course, we now have diet pills, nicotine pathces - etc. We really don't need to exercise self control anymore in this consumerist-quick-fix world.

Again, calling what someone suffering from clinical depression goes through 'self-pity' is completely misleading. It's like saying someone with cancer has a 'bit of pain'.

Self pity from losing the loved one grief for your loss as well as their loss.

Self pity is just pity for self. Whatever stigma you choose to attach to the term is up to you. I see self pity as a part of human being human just as pride. Self pity is natural believe it or not.

Sorry, but the overwhelming evidence confirms that your Dr Baughman - and you - are wrong.

Oh. Evidence presented by the pharmacutical industry juggernaut? Give me a case study of other animals that commit suicide from a "chemical imbalance in the brain" - you're an analytical guy.

There is a vast difference between people believing something without adequate foundation and clinical depression. Compare it to a car - you can have a car which is missing on one cylinder. It's not working properly - but it gets you from A to B. Then again you can have a car on which the steering is completely stuffed - pull the wheel to the left, the car turns to the right, or goes straight ahead, or something else. That one WON'T get you from A to B. Saying that both cars aren't working properly is accurate, but it hardly gives the whole situation. A person suffering from clinical depression's brain is working improperly to the point where they are incapable of integrating information about their own life situation. They cannot evaluate it or the necessary tasks they must accomplish to live it.

Of course there is something wrong when a person is depressed. The immediate conclusion that it must be a chemical imbalance is ridiculous. If a Christian doubts their faith that God exists because their mind tell them but their heart still wants to believe, then they experience grief - my best friend in High school was losing her faith - & her fundamentalist Christian family then claimed she was experiencing depression because her reality was "skewed" ie. losing God & did not toe the line. They made life for her - eventualy, off she went to the mental ward.

It's not "convenient"; it's simply fact. I still don't.

So? its a fact to Christians that God exists - & to you they are wrong. So?

The comparison of belief in god is completely meaningless. The fact that, for some reason, you don't want to believe what medical science has revealed is your problem. Do you have any medical training? What are your medical qualifications? The simple fact is that a chemical imbalance is the major cause of clinical depression, whether you like it or not.

Where is yours? C'mon. Medicine is a science. The beauty of science is that it is necessarily able to be duplicated. Thats why faith healing is not a "science" because they cannot demonstrate it.

Give me a case study of a scientifically controlled clinical depression.

 

[Kris_J]

Show me that the chemical imbalance in the brain is NOT the by-product of a psychological trauma on the person.