- Dec 30, 2001
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The Bible says the resurrection occurs immediately before the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), when Jesus comes (1 Corinthians 15:23) at the trumpet's sounding (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus comes at the trumpet's sounding in Matthew 24:29-31....1 and 2...
The Old Testament did distinguish between Jesus' two comings: the one in Isaiah 53 where he dies, and the one in Zechariah 14 where he comes to conquer and rule, but neither the Old Testament nor the New teaches a 3rd coming of Jesus. I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same gathering together: John 14:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52....3...
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37)....4...
Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isnt at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12....5, 6 and 8...
Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church. They could be angelic rulers as ancient as the 4 beasts (Revelation 4:6), who with the 4 beasts have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9)....7...
Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time....9...
Note that "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is in the passive; it doesn't say we'll catch up ourselves. I don't know if it is a question of our "needing" the angels to gather us at the rapture so much as that is how Jesus has chosen it to happen. Do we who have the Spirit of Jesus himself within us ever really "need" the angels -- couldn't Jesus do everything for us directly? Yet he chooses to use angels throughout our walk in him....10 and 11...
Note that is only in one parable, which says we must watch for that coming (Luke 12:36-40, compare Matthew 24:42)....12...
Note that there Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself." He didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven....13...
I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the church because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrists rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6)....14...
I believe the sheep and goat judgment of all nations (Matthew 25:32-46) is not until the white throne judgment after the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15), when I believe the sheep will enter the eternal kingdom prepared beforehand (Revelation 21:2-3), and the goats will enter everlasting punishment (Revelation 20:15). Note that only the Antichrist and False Prophet go into everlasting punishment at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20)....15...
I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium....16...
While it's true that John doesn't mention the rapture in any of his writings, note that in Revelation 19 he clearly shows Jesus coming. Both Jesus and Paul said the rapture (our being "caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air," to be "gathered together to him") will happen at Jesus' coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:29-37, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Corinthians 15:23)....John gave no evidence to the rapture of the Church...
Originally posted by searcher
Thunder, I would like to respond specifically to your pre-trib proof #1.
In addition: Revelation 14:1-5 speaks of the 144,000 being redeemed from "among men, being firstfruits to God and to the lamb"
If the first resurrection/rapture happens prior to the 144,000 being redeemed how can these then be considered firstfruits from among men?
Kenneth
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